replica vs open mold discussion

[jonathanf2]

The best replicas are the ones that troll the real thing. This guy at my social ride bought a used Surly Straggler with a scribbly S-Werks logo on the down tube. The guy who bought doesn't realize what/who the bike was trolling. Though it was a custom build and looking at the components, whomever built it put in some quality components on the bike and knew what he was doing.

I'm beginning to see Chinese bike frames and components more as a tuner market for bike builds. Anyone can walk into a boutique bike shop and buy $6-10k + USD bike, but where's the fun in that? Now you have this expensive bike that you have to baby, think about resale and only get serviced for more $$$ at the same bike shop, while gaining zero knowledge in actual bike maintenance. There's something fun about an open mold bike because you built it, know it's strengths/weaknesses and you can ride the bike hard without too much monetary repercussions. There's also the bigger satisfaction of gapping/dropping cyclists on the bling bikes. The money save can be used for more training, better nutrition, date night with the gf/missus, etc.

[ejump0]

2. Is replica going to be as good as the real thing performance wise?

Absolutely not, but is it close? I would say yes, replica tends to feel less stiff, a bit heavier and a little bit sluggish. If I really need to give a direct comparison, I will say replica has 90% of the performance, in fact, we all sort of know the answer, if you get dropped, problem's on you, not the bike. Honestly if you are not a racer, don't bother, I don't really think a racer would consider buying replica anyway.

if frames from TanTan, VB, ICAN can be as close to 85% ride quality of the frames they took inspiration on, this is plenty good for a hobbyist racer like me.
im paying probably 25-40% on bike frame from reference of a big brand bike, get ~80% ride quality, and its not like my race performance is handicaped at 80% of my full potential if i would be on thos big brand bike(i guess). the savings of $ can go to more race fees n travel

[patliean1]

I believe we're both talking the same language. Where I take umbrage is in the steep barrier to entry when it comes to cycling, and 'the scene'. Value is something that's important to most people, and there isn't value to be found in the upper echelon of cycling.

Are there actual local cycling scenes around who condescend individuals that ride non-Western, Chinese bikes? And what I mean is clear and obvious behavior suggesting they don't want you around?

I'm not dismissing the idea just because I haven't experienced this myself. Chicago Cycling has its own charm of a community that even folks in other larger scenes have expressed admiration for. Midwest hospitality. The only real barrier to entry is being flagged as sketchy rider.

We have a local PAS Normal club. On paper you can probably imagine what they're like. Initially I dismissed them as a bunch of snobs with overpriced kits, but quite frankly their attitude has been the exact opposite. In fact I'd argue they are the most inviting club in the city. All it took was getting past my own projections and spending about 2 minutes to introduce myself. And this was well before I started riding anything remotely resembling brand cache, and dressing like a fake-pro bro.

[dsveddy]

People keep talking about these barriers... I dont get it. I ride a no logo Dengfu. I have never been stopped or accosted for not having a name brand bike lol.

If you just want to ride a bike, the only barriers are money and time. You can go to Walmart, buy a $300 bike and be on your way. But if you want affirmation from road bike snobs, yea, you are going to have to pay through the nose to have the "right" equipment. What's the value in that? And if/when they find out you are on a replica, how do you think they will respond? The whole thing makes me ick.

Funny enough, the racer snob crowd has a lot of respect for unbranded Chiner frames and budget builds in general. It's a badge of honor signifying that you were able to spec and build up the "right" equipment without paying a bike shop to tell you what to get, and that the bike isn't going to be a garage queen since you aren't worried about ruining $10k worth of bike.

If you're trying to go fast for cheap, just get a Speeder/Carbonda/Lightcarbon/Velobuild, throw on some ICAN/NineVelo/Elitewheels, and run 105 or Ultegra. Job done.

[dsveddy]

Are there actual local cycling scenes around who condescend individuals that ride non-Western, Chinese bikes? And what I mean is clear and obvious behavior suggesting they don't want you around?

I wouldn't say "scenes" but there's definitely groups/individuals, especially old dudes. Like you see it on Reddit and WW (although the tide is turning a bit)--lot's of comments saying "I wouldn't trust a Chinese bike/wheels/handlebar/seatpost, your life depends on it!" 40+ masters racers are pretty crotchety about their gear to begin with, I feel like it's the scene with the highest density of dudes who are convinced your wheels are going to implode and take them (and the local LBS) down with you.

[bremerradkurier]

Funny enough, the racer snob crowd has a lot of respect for unbranded Chiner frames and budget builds in general. It's a badge of honor signifying that you were able to spec and build up the "right" equipment without paying a bike shop to tell you what to get, and that the bike isn't going to be a garage queen since you aren't worried about ruining $10k worth of bike.

If you're trying to go fast for cheap, just get a Speeder/Carbonda/Lightcarbon/Velobuild, throw on some ICAN/NineVelo/Elitewheels, and run 105 or Ultegra. Job done.

That build up is probably superior to what most TDF riders were riding 15 years ago or maybe even 10 years ago.

[tssy5]

I'm beginning to see Chinese bike frames and components more as a tuner market for bike builds. Anyone can walk into a boutique bike shop and buy $6-10k + USD bike, but where's the fun in that? Now you have this expensive bike that you have to baby, think about resale and only get serviced for more $$$ at the same bike shop, while gaining zero knowledge in actual bike maintenance. There's something fun about an open mold bike because you built it, know it's strengths/weaknesses and you can ride the bike hard without too much monetary repercussions. There's also the bigger satisfaction of gapping/dropping cyclists on the bling bikes. The money save can be used for more training, better nutrition, date night with the gf/missus, etc.

Well said! I am into trying different bikes and their geometry, testing the ride and stuff, it has been a real fun, there's no way I am going to pay $5k USD for each of them...

[neobiker]

That build up is probably superior to what most TDF riders were riding 15 years ago or maybe even 10 years ago.

For the frame and the wheels for sure. Advance in aero are not to dismiss.

[Sakizashi]

I own several replicas and real branded bikes, also have borrowed from friends and ridden the real thing that my replica is trying to copy. My experience is pretty recent so I believe I can comment on a few common topics:

1. the million dollar question, is replica safe to ride?

There is no simple answer for this actually, it depends. If your aliexpress replica is only $200 USD including handlebar, you tell me, do you think it is safe to ride?
However I can confidently tell you if you are buying a $600+ USD replica, there won't be any major safety issues, it is not like you ride your replica normally and it snapped in half immediately, unless you are a heavy rider, but I am pretty sure even branded bikes aren't gonna be that safe if you are heavy, because physics, you cannot have something that is light enough yet still be able to withstand a tremendous load.

I got a friend who has a real Time frame and the front fork snapped in half when he was descending down a hill, spent a month or two in the hospital, he was like 90kg I think? So yeah, famous brand doesn't guarantee safety, or maybe just bad luck, who knows, good thing is Time gave him a replacement for free so if you buy legit that's your advantage.


2. Is replica going to be as good as the real thing performance wise?

Absolutely not, but is it close? I would say yes, replica tends to feel less stiff, a bit heavier and a little bit sluggish. If I really need to give a direct comparison, I will say replica has 90% of the performance, in fact, we all sort of know the answer, if you get dropped, problem's on you, not the bike. Honestly if you are not a racer, don't bother, I don't really think a racer would consider buying replica anyway.

This is not intended to be mean or judgemental, so I hope we can take this response in the sprit of open discussion.

RE #1: Anecdata like this isn't helpful, and to me, the bigger question is whether or not the factory is even testing these frames for safety and failure. If you work with a reputable Chinese factory, they generate a surprising amount of data via testing in rigs to understand fatigue and lower the odds of a frame-breaking. Is the result a guarantee that a product won't break? No. But it does mean that the failure modes are known, and the probability of a frame-breaking meets the ISO standards. Not collecting the data means that it wasn't considered. This is similar to the arguments for and against helmets. Using a helmet provides a data-backed way to mitigate the consequences of an event. Still, there is no direct way to measure the risk faced on an individual ride if you choose not to wear a helmet and you can convince yourself that other factors might make it safer to not wear one.

RE #2: Nearly any race bike frame equipped with similar modern components will be 90% as good as a WT level super bike. Use electronic shifting, use similar wheels and tires, match the contact points and I think its near impossible to find a 10% difference in overall peformance.

I've had the pleasure of riding an Emonda ALR and a Gen 8 Madone now. Even as a smaller rider where the frame matters more as a percentage of aero or weight or whatever, there was no way to look at my ride data and tell the difference between the alloy not aero bike and the WT race bike. You take that from 20-22mph to like 28mph, and yes, there is now a measurable difference, but it's not even 5% and still within the error of my ability to test things on a loop.

How much time and money are you spending trying to make your replica work? How much cheaper does it really end up than something like the Emonda ALR?

Does the extra clout gained from a fake replica do anything for you? I don't think anyone on any group ride will care about this, and if they do, honestly, they are jerks.

If you are saying that a replica bike does no harm because you wouldn't be buying the real thing anyway, what do you do when you move on from the frame? Just throw it away? I suspect that the fakes I have seen being passed off as the real thing often started their life with the first reseller saying, "hey this isnt a real Pinarello" (or other brand), and the second reseller either forgot or isn't enough of a bike person to realize that other people can tell the difference on inspection.

Edit: I want to clarify that I think troll bikes are hilarious—like the LTK bike badged as a "Tractor," for example—but these aren't replicas or counterfeit bikes.

[RDY]

Replicas are fine IMO.  But counterfeit branding is just stupid, quite apart from the legal implications.

[jonathanf2]

Well said! I am into trying different bikes and their geometry, testing the ride and stuff, it has been a real fun, there's no way I am going to pay $5k USD for each of them...

I ride road/gravel in Los Angeles and there's nothing more humbling than getting gapped on the hill climb by some kid on a fixed gear bike while listening to his AirPods. At this point, I highly doubt any of these Chinese frames/components are holding anyone back.

Who's to say you can't equipped quality components on a cheaper frame? I just crashed my gravel bike a few days ago and messed up my 2x RD. I ended up converting the bike back to 1x with a GRX RD, Ultegra hydraulic shifters and a Pass Quest aero chainring I had lying around. Bike runs amazing. A week ago my FD rivets popped out on of one of my road frames, I ordered a cheap rivet gun and nailed that sh*t back in. Good as new! 

[bioluminescent]

I've had the pleasure of riding an Emonda ALR and a Gen 8 Madone now. Even as a smaller rider where the frame matters more as a percentage of aero or weight or whatever, there was no way to look at my ride data and tell the difference between the alloy not aero bike and the WT race bike. You take that from 20-22mph to like 28mph, and yes, there is now a measurable difference, but it's not even 5% and still within the error of my ability to test things on a loop.

Really great point that the marginal gins are going to be outside our means of testing. I still like to think that you could tell major difference in ride quality between a more budget Alu, and an all out race bike. I own an older AL Domane, it's a great bike, but not something that eggs me on to sprint for the county line with my buddies. The issue is ride dynamics are really subjective and not easily quantifiable. I feel like there could still be improvement in ride quality over our classic lightcarbons and yishuns, which is why I started looking at replicas.

The idea of passing a fake as real just puts a bad taste in my mouth. I agree that second and third owners are probably going to be a lot less honest then the people on this forum...

[tssy5]

This is not intended to be mean or judgemental, so I hope we can take this response in the sprit of open discussion.

RE #1: Anecdata like this isn't helpful, and to me, the bigger question is whether or not the factory is even testing these frames for safety and failure. If you work with a reputable Chinese factory, they generate a surprising amount of data via testing in rigs to understand fatigue and lower the odds of a frame-breaking. Is the result a guarantee that a product won't break? No. But it does mean that the failure modes are known, and the probability of a frame-breaking meets the ISO standards. Not collecting the data means that it wasn't considered. This is similar to the arguments for and against helmets. Using a helmet provides a data-backed way to mitigate the consequences of an event. Still, there is no direct way to measure the risk faced on an individual ride if you choose not to wear a helmet and you can convince yourself that other factors might make it safer to not wear one.

RE #2: Nearly any race bike frame equipped with similar modern components will be 90% as good as a WT level super bike. Use electronic shifting, use similar wheels and tires, match the contact points and I think its near impossible to find a 10% difference in overall peformance.

I've had the pleasure of riding an Emonda ALR and a Gen 8 Madone now. Even as a smaller rider where the frame matters more as a percentage of aero or weight or whatever, there was no way to look at my ride data and tell the difference between the alloy not aero bike and the WT race bike. You take that from 20-22mph to like 28mph, and yes, there is now a measurable difference, but it's not even 5% and still within the error of my ability to test things on a loop.

How much time and money are you spending trying to make your replica work? How much cheaper does it really end up than something like the Emonda ALR?

Does the extra clout gained from a fake replica do anything for you? I don't think anyone on any group ride will care about this, and if they do, honestly, they are jerks.

If you are saying that a replica bike does no harm because you wouldn't be buying the real thing anyway, what do you do when you move on from the frame? Just throw it away? I suspect that the fakes I have seen being passed off as the real thing often started their life with the first reseller saying, "hey this isnt a real Pinarello" (or other brand), and the second reseller either forgot or isn't enough of a bike person to realize that other people can tell the difference on inspection.

Edit: I want to clarify that I think troll bikes are hilarious—like the LTK bike badged as a "Tractor," for example—but these aren't replicas or counterfeit bikes.

Don't worry about it, any sensible human being would be skeptical towards replicas / Chinese brands given their history of selling cheap low quality junks to the world. I was just like you a few years back.

1. About safety for the replica frame, maybe I can give some "insider" info, a year ago I got a chance to visit a replica factory in Dongguan, they got all sort of equipments for the stress/failure/drop test, the replica frames are going through a series of safety tests before final inspection. The equipment they are using to test don't look like state of the art, but it does it's job. I guess those are second-hand testing equipments from legit brands, not sure, but imo, I have seen the process and equipment for testing the replica, and I believe I can trust them to be at least safe to ride. Funny thing is that factory also help manufacture frames for some "legit Chinese brand", so yeah, it is just that shady, you never know, but I can't talk too much for this part, let's just say a lot of people ride their products now.


2. Well yes, there isn't much difference for an alloy road bike to a carbon road bike, but about the clout, not everyone goes with replica aiming just to pretend rich or something, for what purpose they bought replica for, that's their business, I am just here to share what I know about these Chinese frames. Personally, I like to try different frames and do a little bit research on them, sometimes I ride my TCR, sometimes I ride my replica, sometimes I borrow and ride my friend's high-end bike, that's the fun part for me as a roadie.

About the replica I don't need, I would just sell them online listed as replica from aliexpress, I don't want or need to trick the others, it is not the money I need, I need the space, my home doesn't have the space for too many frames. If anyone sells a replica and lsited as the real thing, that has something to do with that person rather than the replica itself.

[Sakizashi]

Don't worry about it, any sensible human being would be skeptical towards replicas / Chinese brands given their history of selling cheap low quality junks to the world. I was just like you a few years back.

1. About safety for the replica frame, maybe I can give some "insider" info, a year ago I got a chance to visit a replica factory in Dongguan, they got all sort of equipments for the stress/failure/drop test, the replica frames are going through a series of safety tests before final inspection. The equipment they are using to test don't look like state of the art, but it does it's job. I guess those are second-hand testing equipments from legit brands, not sure, but imo, I have seen the process and equipment for testing the replica, and I believe I can trust them to be at least safe to ride. Funny thing is that factory also help manufacture frames for some "legit Chinese brand", so yeah, it is just that shady, you never know, but I can't talk too much for this part, let's just say a lot of people ride their products now.


2. Well yes, there isn't much difference for an alloy road bike to a carbon road bike, but about the clout, not everyone goes with replica aiming just to pretend rich or something, for what purpose they bought replica for, that's their business, I am just here to share what I know about these Chinese frames. Personally, I like to try different frames and do a little bit research on them, sometimes I ride my TCR, sometimes I ride my replica, sometimes I borrow and ride my friend's high-end bike, that's the fun part for me as a roadie.

About the replica I don't need, I would just sell them online listed as replica from aliexpress, I don't want or need to trick the others, it is not the money I need, I need the space, my home doesn't have the space for too many frames. If anyone sells a replica and lsited as the real thing, that has something to do with that person rather than the replica itself.

It's fantastic that they are safety testing at the facility you visited. It's surprising to me because a lot of the retailers for these frames change often, though I guess there are a few that have been around a while. Is their testing data verified with an authority like SGS? Can you get their certificates?

If you live where these replicas and counterfeits are illegal, reselling them with a disclaimer is also unlawful. Expecting that not to harm anyone down the line is some "laws don't apply to me" bullshit. These laws exist because disclaimers aren't enough, so it's still your problem and reflects on you. If you said, "I keep these and ride them into the ground," it would be more of a "meh." If people are brazen enough to try and sell counterfeits to a company like Pros Closet, you should be able to see how just contributing to putting fakes out there hurts other cyclists who just want a great deal and aren't getting the bike they thought they were. (https://www.theproscloset.com/blogs/news/how-to-catch-a-counterfeit-cervelo-rca)

[Sebastian]

I thought that everyone selling bike parts has to adhere to the ISO4210 testing protocol anyway as it is obligatory in most countries. Maybe someone with more background knowledge in the world of engineering and standards can explain better.

But what that means is that fatigue testing of sample frames doesn’t really set Chinese frames apart from the big brands. It is the level of QC (or its existence in the first place) that makes the difference. Right? What good is fatigue testing of one sample frame if they then crank out thousands of these frames without ever looking at any of them before they get shipped?