Various Full Suspension Designs

[Carbon_Dude]

Here is a good video that Giant put together to show the benefits of their Maestro FS design.  It also compares their suspension to others currently on the market.

I find the different suspension designs fascinating.  I've ridden a Giant Anthem, Trance, and Stance.  I felt the Maestro suspension worked very well.

My IP-036 has a more basic (Single Pivot) style but it also works very well, I believe in part due to the Fox CTD BV shock I chose along with the ability to lock out the shock on climbs.  If I had gone with a very basic shock with more linear spring/rebound/damping and no ability to control the shock on the fly, I don't think the single pivot design would be nearly as efficient.

[Sitar_Ned]

A long time ago when I was doing research to buy my Cannondale Rush (which is a very simple single pivot design), one of the conclusions I came to was there were two ways to go about suspension design.. Either let the frame design do the work or the shock do the work. Not sure which is superior, or even how true that is, it's just the assumption I've been under ever since. So for example, my Rush and your 036 need a more sophisticated shock due to the simplistic nature of the frame suspension design. Whereas something like a Maestro suspension (which I've read nothing but awesome things about) could get by with a less sophisticated shock.

Do you know of any chiner frames that use Maestro? I'm pretty sure there isn't , but thought I'd ask.

[Carbon_Dude]

There are so few Chinese Carbon 29er FS frames, most likely because these companies don't spend much money on R&D. 

There are basically only about four designs I know of:

• FM/IP-036 (29er) (single pivot)
  
• IP/FM-098 (29er, more travel, enduro) (single pivot)
  
• Carbonal Titan (29er) (single pivot)
  
• Workswell WCB-M-017 (single pivot?) (however this  is a 27.5er)
  

[MTNRCKT]

There's also the IP-098

[Carbon_Dude]

You are right, I forgot about the IP/FM-098.  More travel, more of an Enduro frame.

[Sitar_Ned]

most likely because these companies don't spend much money on R&D. 

I'm not sure that would be a limiting factor, would it? I assumed they spend zero money on R&D and copied other frames.. So, couldn't they just copy a Maestro suspension frame?

I was thinking it was more because the Chinese suppliers just aren't in tune with what their customers want/will buy. Or perhaps there are some manufacturing limitations that we're not aware of.

[Carbon_Dude]

In this case of FS mountain bikes, I've noticed that the Chinese frame companies tend not to do direct copies of a particular suspension design that might have several patents.  Instead they tend to stick with simpler, more generic suspension designs.  I know patents typically don't discourage the Chinese manufacturers from copying products, however, since many of the big brand vendors already manufacture in China and Taiwan, maybe they tend to not want to upset their home market.

[cmh]

A long time ago when I was doing research to buy my Cannondale Rush (which is a very simple single pivot design), one of the conclusions I came to was there were two ways to go about suspension design.. Either let the frame design do the work or the shock do the work. Not sure which is superior, or even how true that is, it's just the assumption I've been under ever since. So for example, my Rush and your 036 need a more sophisticated shock due to the simplistic nature of the frame suspension design. Whereas something like a Maestro suspension (which I've read nothing but awesome things about) could get by with a less sophisticated shock.

Do you know of any chiner frames that use Maestro? I'm pretty sure there isn't , but thought I'd ask.

Funny - I watched the video and had to laugh - I've got a Rumblefish (ABP) and had a Superlight (single pivot) before that. My biggest beef with the superlight was that it was waaaay too flexible for my size/weight - something they addressed in future frames. Otherwise, it was a pretty damn fun bike. As for the Rumblefish - I freaking love that bike.

BUT - in both cases, I had a ProPedal shock, so find myself totally agreeing with Ned. If I leave the ProPedal off on the 'fish, I know right away - I can feel it bobbing like a stick in wavy water. With the ProPedal, works pretty darn well. Still moves, but it's a suspension bike, and I'm not racing, so if I'm losing a watt or two here and there, I can live with it if the bike works well.

That said - I demo'd an Anthem last year, and have a feeling if it was on trails that I knew instead of mostly doubletrack that I didn't - I might own one now. Damn fine bike with a really slick suspension design. Rode super nice. Of course, it was also the $8k top end model with XX1 and the carbon frame and all, so no huge surprise.

One thing I noticed with that video was they called the Specialized design a "four bar", which it is, but it's a Horst link (pivot on the chainstays) which is a special variation of the four-bar. They then refered to a conventional four bar - the same design that you'll see on the Chiners - as a "modified four bar". That's kinda backwards with what I've seen, but I freely admit I'm not _super_ well versed on the different suspension designs. Just noticed that and thought it was odd.

Back to Ned's comments, though - I think the Chiner frames go with the generic four bar design, and expect the rider to choose the shock that works best in that situation. (ie - platform) Look at Scott's Spark line - same thing, and Nino Schurter seems to be doing pretty damn well with it.

[Carbon_Dude]

I agree CMH, the four bar system in my IP-036 works well, and I think much of that is the Fox shock that I chose.  The shock  is fairly stiff in its initial travel to help prevent pedal-bob, and the ability to select the three modes on the fly also helps with efficiency in climbing, flat bumpy terrain, and fast bumpy downhill.

I really only have one complaint and that is the frame does have a bit more flex in the rear than one might expect.  I can't complain much but the flex is noticeable at times.

Last year I test road a 27.5 Giant Anthem Advanced here on our local trails and the bike felt really nice, but I missed not having 29" wheels.  If I ever found a 29er Anthem Advanced frame for sale at a cheap price, it might be difficult to resist grabbing it up and building another FS 29er.  The suspension worked extremely well, possibly better than the Specialized Epic, which I have only owned the 26" version, with limited time on a newer 29" demo model.

[Sitar_Ned]

I know patents typically don't discourage the Chinese manufacturers from copying products, however, since many of the big brand vendors already manufacture in China and Taiwan, maybe they tend to not want to upset their home market.

Interesting point. Hadn't considered that yet, but could easily see that being the way it is to a certain degree.

[cernymuz]

I think the different suspension design has to do a lot with simplicity. eg. the Horst link (FSR) patent expired few years ago (and was only applicable in the US, AFAIK) so they could use it if they wanted.
The only frame I know of to be using more advanced suspension design is the 2015 ICAN:
http://www.icanbikes.com/html/MTB/27_5ER_frame/273.html

it is a DW-link desing, and I doubt they bothered with licensing.