Author Topic: Ican S3 XC Frame  (Read 38018 times)

Ben78

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2021, 04:26:38 AM »
I don't want to say too much at this point, but I think a 165x45 is actually realistic.

As you can see in the pic, at full compression the linkage bolts are 115mm apart, which means a 165x50 shock would hit the bridge at full compression, and there should be around 5mm clearance at 165x45. This to me is fairly positive....

The other pic is just a wheels n fork mock up to see what its going to look like once built.
I stripped the frame to components today so I can at least pop the bearing seals and grease them. That said all the bolts had decent amount of blue locktite and all pivots were very tight, actually was difficult getting them apart.

The pivot linkage is carbon also, I think the Carbonda version is aluminium.

Now to the biggest downside - and this may have been my fault.... Greased bottom bracket galled up pretty bad. I managed to get the BB shell out, but it tore all the threads off the shell and left them in the BB, so now I have to buy a thread file to try and clean them up. Really unsure of what I did wrong there.....

I bought a large, and am 182cm/6', I also have a large Specialized Enduro which has very similar geo, so I figured I'd be fine on a Large. In the mock up pic I have a 80mm stem but I'll probably get a 40mm. I had planned on painting it, but once I saw it mocked up I actually really like the blacked out look - not something I'm really used to seeing!

mtbluvr68

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2021, 06:14:43 PM »
The specs say this frame uses a 165X40 mm shock at 122 mm of travel.  Something is amiss here.  165X40  is about 105 mm of travel.  Most of the 120 mm travel frames of this style use a 165X45 trunnion shock. 
2021 Tan Tan Seraph FM027  w/Light Bicycle wheels(XC)
2022 Marin Rift Zone 3 w/ elite wheels (trail)
2021 Tideace FMR185 w/Light Bicycle Wheels (road)
2023  Chasing Wind w/ elite wheels (Gravel)

Guyzer73

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2021, 10:38:57 PM »
I don't want to say too much at this point, but I think a 165x45 is actually realistic.

As you can see in the pic, at full compression the linkage bolts are 115mm apart, which means a 165x50 shock would hit the bridge at full compression, and there should be around 5mm clearance at 165x45. This to me is fairly positive....

...

Cheers Ben, some great info there and helps me firm up my thoughts.

Shame the linkage is carbon was planning on stripping and polishing of aluminium  :-\ oh well.

Damn that sucks with the BB, hope you get it sorted out.

On another matter l, how did you communicate with Ican? I'm finding their online chat and Email woefully slow co.pared to other Chinese retailers.

Cheers

Guy

Guyzer73

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2021, 10:55:35 PM »
The specs say this frame uses a 165X40 mm shock at 122 mm of travel.  Something is amiss here.  165X40  is about 105 mm of travel.  Most of the 120 mm travel frames of this style use a 165X45 trunnion shock.

I think you're getting it lost translation literally. The 122mm quoted is we assume the minimum compressed length of the shock, they call it stroke. So based on a 165 i2t this equates to a 42.5mm stroke. Ben is saying a 45mm looks feasible. So theoretically if 40mm shock strike equates to 100mm rear suspension travel then 45mm will equate to 112mm suspension travel.

Tbh I was also confused by the 122mm stroke statement in the specs but Ben's explanation makes sense and I pretty sure Ican don't use professional translators, hence lost in translation  :D
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 04:07:31 AM by Guyzer73 »

Ben78

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2021, 01:46:34 AM »
Got it built up today. I bought an imperial thread file and another bb52 and got it sorted. Made up a trunnion adaptor and got it all together.

I'm racing an enduro this weekend so won't get to ride it until next week some time unfortunately. Driveway test feels good though, and as suspected the feel is very similar to my Enduro.

scourge

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2021, 01:58:10 AM »
Looks awesome. What did the rear travel end up being?

Guyzer73

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2021, 03:27:44 AM »
Looks great!!

I'm playing around with the computer to check the geo with my changes....



Doesn't look too bad from the pictures but STA and HTA difficult to calculate properly. But think it should work nicely.

Guyzer73

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2021, 04:09:36 AM »
Am I right in saying this frame is basically a Transition Sentinel, with a Transition Spur rear triangle and reduced travel?

Ben78

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2021, 04:12:44 AM »
Looks awesome. What did the rear travel end up being?

I've only got a 165x38 at the moment so about 96mm

Guyzer73

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2021, 07:35:06 AM »
Ben,

As you got a large, can you tell me what headset you've used and what the overall height is from bottom to top of headset. I've seen a fox factory fork for a reasonable price and need to see if the head tube is long enough. I suspect it isn't.

Thanks in advance

mtbluvr68

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2021, 04:16:27 PM »
I think you're getting it lost translation literally. The 122mm quoted is we assume the minimum compressed length of the shock, they call it stroke. So based on a 165 i2t this equates to a 42.5mm stroke. Ben is saying a 45mm looks feasible. So theoretically if 40mm shock strike equates to 100mm rear suspension travel then 45mm will equate to 112mm suspension travel.

Tbh I was also confused by the 122mm stroke statement in the specs but Ben's explanation makes sense and I pretty sure Ican don't use professional translators, hence lost in translation  :D

I appreciate the explanation but I think the ratio is off because 165X38 shock is 100 mm on most bikes so taking the trunnion in consideration 140 trunnion should be about 105 ,  the 142.5 should be about 112 and the 145 should be about 120.  Maybe the stroke changes that slightly but unless you're compressing the shock to get in the frame then the numbers are still skewed.  Not to mention that if it doesn't have capability to full compress the shock and bottom out then what's the point? 
2021 Tan Tan Seraph FM027  w/Light Bicycle wheels(XC)
2022 Marin Rift Zone 3 w/ elite wheels (trail)
2021 Tideace FMR185 w/Light Bicycle Wheels (road)
2023  Chasing Wind w/ elite wheels (Gravel)

poejokiller

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2021, 04:32:49 PM »
Hi guys, newbie here from Portugal! ;)
After finished a marathon reading all 109 pages on Carbonda fm936 and noticing this thread, on Apr 13 I placed an order for a S3 frame with ICAN. I confess I was kind of afraid it would be a scam, so I was so relieved when Ben finally received his frame!
I'm now starting to collect all required parts, the first one being a Fox Factory Kashima 165x42.5 rear shock. Just placed the order at a bargain 300€ price, shipping included from Ukraine. Still 2 units left, if anyone's interested: https://www.ebay.com/itm/284181189397

Julian

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2021, 06:10:02 PM »
I appreciate the explanation but I think the ratio is off because 165X38 shock is 100 mm on most bikes so taking the trunnion in consideration 140 trunnion should be about 105 ,  the 142.5 should be about 112 and the 145 should be about 120.  Maybe the stroke changes that slightly but unless you're compressing the shock to get in the frame then the numbers are still skewed.  Not to mention that if it doesn't have capability to full compress the shock and bottom out then what's the point?

I'm not quite sure if I fully understand what you mean... But there seem to be some errors in your thinking. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

You say that "165x38 shock is 100mm on most bikes", do you mean that a frame with a 165x38 shock usually provides 100mm of travel? Well it may be, that many bikes with these shock dimensions have 100mm of travel. But the amount of travel that the shock stroke translates to, depends on the leverage ratio of the frame. And that cannot be "off", it is what it is. Every bike is different. That just depends on how the linkage is designed. Like some bikes with a 210x55 shock have 140mm of travel, others have 160mm.

The Ican here for example has an average leverage ratio of 2,5. That means that for every 1mm of shock compression, the rear wheel moves upwards by 2,5mm - on average. It's probably a progressive frame, so the leverage ratio will reduce throughout the travel.

Now for this, the only important number is the stroke length of the shock, which is the second number, like "38". The first number - 165 - is the eye to eye, so the overall length of the shock. That should usually not be messed with, since any changes will drastically affect the geometry of the bike. Also, it doesn't matter if its trunnion or standard mount. The eye to eye is what counts. In this bike, you should only run 165mm, trunnion or standard.

What the guys are talking about, is keeping the eye to eye length the same, but changing the stroke length of the shock. So when the standard shock would be fully compressed, a longer stroke shock still has some more to go, resulting in more travel. The limit of this is reached when the seat stays hit the seat tube. What Ben did, is go to this point of maximum compression and measure the remaining eye to eye distance, which is 115mm. A 165mm shock would need to be compressed by 50 mm to get to this point. But you need some safety room to avoid breaking the frame at the first bottom out, also because the bottom out bumpers of the shock still give way a little when it's compressed hard. That's why Ben suggested a 45mm stroke shock may work.

The rest is math. Let's say the leverage ratio is 2,5 at the end of the stroke (it's probably a little lower), then an additional 2,5 mm of shock stroke will give you 6,25mm more travel. Take that twice and you have your 112mm with a 45mm stroke instead of the standard 100mm with a 40mm stroke.

Sorry, a lot to read, I know... I hope I didn't misunderstand you, just thought this might help. Took me a while to get behind this linkage stuff too.

mtbluvr68

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2021, 10:16:31 AM »
Julian thanks for the good read. 
2021 Tan Tan Seraph FM027  w/Light Bicycle wheels(XC)
2022 Marin Rift Zone 3 w/ elite wheels (trail)
2021 Tideace FMR185 w/Light Bicycle Wheels (road)
2023  Chasing Wind w/ elite wheels (Gravel)

Ben78

Re: Ican S3 XC Frame
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2021, 03:08:33 AM »
Ben,

As you got a large, can you tell me what headset you've used and what the overall height is from bottom to top of headset. I've seen a fox factory fork for a reasonable price and need to see if the head tube is long enough. I suspect it isn't.

Thanks in advance

I used the headset that came in the box, it is a zero stack type. Headtube is 120mm long and my fork has a 175mm steerer on it.