Want a more comfortable frame (Any geometry gurus here?)

[Ryan_M]

I'm 182cm. I currently have an ICAN A22 (54cm) that I find too aggresive. I had a fit done and was told everything looks good, but I could maybe use a 5mm stem spacer. I'm never really that comfortable on it and my lower back bothers me. I find I'm always on the very back of the handle bars, it feels too long and low. I was thinking about find a more enduro like frame and have been looking at the Elves Eglath (53cm). This will approximately raise the handle bars about 20mm and the ETT is also ~20mm shorter. Would this be considered a significant change in geometry, or would it be barely noticable? Thanks for any input.

[Sakizashi]

I'm 182cm. I currently have an ICAN A22 (54cm) that I find too aggresive. I had a fit done and was told everything looks good, but I could maybe use a 5mm stem spacer. I'm never really that comfortable on it and my lower back bothers me. I find I'm always on the very back of the handle bars, it feels too long and low.

Can you say more about the lower back pain? Is it something that comes with time on the bike or is it something that shows up in the first 10-20min of riding? What is your handlebar configuration right now?

I am a little surprised by your fitter being OK with your fit, I am guessing your bike is simply too small. Trek would start you on a 58cm on their Emonda and probably size you down to a 56 if you wanted a "race" fit. The A22 is the same length as the 58cm Emonda but 27mm lower.

I was thinking about find a more enduro like frame and have been looking at the Elves Eglath (53cm). This will approximately raise the handle bars about 20mm and the ETT is also ~20mm shorter. Would this be considered a significant change in geometry, or would it be barely noticable? Thanks for any input.

This would be pretty significant change in fit. For most people its a bigger change than their race vs. endurance / gravel fit.

I am seeing a 10mm increase to stack and a 15mm reduction in reach with the Elves frame. However the seat tube angle is steeper which is why you lose the additional 5mm on TT length. This might end up being a problem as it would be close to 8mm of additional setback you would likely need at the seat clamp. Elves doesnt list a setback on their site, so I am not sure you would be able to get the right saddle position. You might want to consider sizing up on the Elves but then stack then might be too high.

If you can, the easy thing would be to raise the bars on your existing by 20mm or so and see if the pain goes away. If you can flip the stem that might be worth trying. If you cant and you have a trainer I suggest cutting some foam and taping it to the ramps of your bars to simulate a higher hand height and seeing if that helps. Adding padding to the ramps is a pretty good way to see if you will be comfortable on the hoods if you were to add in spacers to reduce the height given a similar frame reach. My guess would be that you should try raising the bars before going for a shorter fit.

[Trackar]

Post a picture of your bike. I'm the same Height and I run a 54 as well, but it does mean I run a lot of saddle to bar drop. If I want a more comfortable fit 55/56 is better. On top of that getting a more endurance based frame helps significantly Imo

[zerstorer]

I believe all you need are spacers. When you raise the stack, the effective reach will also reduce. Maybe 10mm of spacers would already solve it. You might even be able to fit the spacer without redoing the cables if there is sufficient slack.

[zerstorer]

Also, how long have you been riding the bike? Sometimes you might just need to give it time. When I first got my road bike I had aches and pains all over, such that I added a 5mm spacer which helped.

But after a year, I felt the need to get a more aero position to match my mates and I took out all( over 2cm of spacers)....and it felt ok. I quickly adapted to the slammed stem in a couple of rides.

[Ryan_M]

Thanks for the replies! Maybe the A22 fits me the way a bike should fit most people but not me?
lower back discomfort isn't something that never happens for me. If I'm active it doesn't bother me but if I'm standing around doing nothing it will.

I am seeing a 10mm increase to stack and a 15mm reduction in reach with the Elves frame.

I've attached a geometry comparison. So the effective top tube is a bit over 19mm with the Elves. The stack #'s says the Elves is 10mm taller but its headtube is 20mm longer and its bottom bracket is 3mm lower compared to the A22, so only a 10mm difference doesn't seem to add up. Maybe its not ~20mm but 10mm has gotta be wrong.

I've had the bike for 2 seasons now but it might only get riden once a week or so. The lower back discomfort slowly builds as the ride goes on. I find I ride with my finger tips on the top of the bars often to get some relief. Afer 60km or so I'm ready to get off the bike. The bar is an integrated and is 44cm wide with a 110mm stem. The top of the saddle is 10cm taller than the tops of the bars.

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I also attached a pic of my hybrid. This bike gets the most saddle time and I've done many 100km+ rides on it with no discomfort at all. The drop from the saddle to the bars is ~2cm. FWIW the horizontal distance from the center of the seatpost the the center of the bars is 69cm on both bikes.

Thanks again!!

[numberzero]

I don't see you on the bike but your saddle to bar drop seems pretty usual for an aero.

Take into account that the chiner's frames are known for being rigid and rough.
Moreover the a22 doesn't seem to have a compliant rear according to the frame design. Added with an aero post and high profile rims, it makes you take all the road imperfections directly in the back.

If not done try to put the maximum tire size you can, tubeless and the lowest rideable pressure. Try a dampening saddle, 3d printed? You won't change the frame to a more compliant one but it can help.
In the life avoiding stupid postures or carrying heavy loads without attention helps too.

If nothing works then change for endurance road bike (like giant defy)

[Sakizashi]

Thanks for the replies! Maybe the A22 fits me the way a bike should fit most people but not me?
lower back discomfort isn't something that never happens for me. If I'm active it doesn't bother me but if I'm standing around doing nothing it will.
I've attached a geometry comparison. So the effective top tube is a bit over 19mm with the Elves. The stack #'s says the Elves is 10mm taller but its headtube is 20mm longer and its bottom bracket is 3mm lower compared to the A22, so only a 10mm difference doesn't seem to add up. Maybe its not ~20mm but 10mm has gotta be wrong.

I've had the bike for 2 seasons now but it might only get riden once a week or so. The lower back discomfort slowly builds as the ride goes on. I find I ride with my finger tips on the top of the bars often to get some relief. Afer 60km or so I'm ready to get off the bike. The bar is an integrated and is 44cm wide with a 110mm stem. The top of the saddle is 10cm taller than the tops of the bars.

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I also attached a pic of my hybrid. This bike gets the most saddle time and I've done many 100km+ rides on it with no discomfort at all. The drop from the saddle to the bars is ~2cm. FWIW the horizontal distance from the center of the seatpost the the center of the bars is 69cm on both bikes.

Thanks again!!

I think i might have had stack and reach reversed in my comment. Sorry about that! It doesn't look like you have much room to increase the stack on that bike. Given what you have described, doing core work is actually the most likely answer.

The other thing to consider is try tilting your levers in a little. Not a lot, just 1cm a side to the part you hold. That will actually reduce your effective reach to the hoods and is a free way to see if a new bar is the answer vs. a new frame. You can try more than that, but note that it may make braking awkward.

The long fits that are popular with the pros currently are made possible by raising the bars and going longer. From a comfort perspective they are equivalent to the larger saddle to bar drop aesthetic that was popular until about 2 years ago (and still dominates on instagram). If you think of moving the bars in a constant radius from your shoulder--thats essentially what they are doing. There is an additional wrinkle of going with a narrower bar. That rotates the shoulders forward which means you need a longer reach--as much as 2-3cm;but that can only really be done as long as the saddle to bar drop is not extreme or you are likely to run into some impingement issues.

Looking at your bike, i think a narrower position could help with the back issues by shortening your effective reach and the drop isn't so extreme to rule it out. If it works, in the long run, it might be worth considering a narrower bar.

Hope this helps!

[zerstorer]

Your bike actually looks comfy enough. The fact that your aches only set in after 60km+ means that your fit is not too far off, just a touch aggressive for your current body flexibility or fitness.

Adding spacers would be the easiest step 5-10mm might even solve it. If not simply reducing your bar width from 440 to 400/380 and or a shorter stem like 90-100mm would also reduce the effective reach.
In fact I think the width of the bars might be the issue as 440mm seems abit excessive on an aero bike.

I feel there is no real need to change the frame unless you are itching for something new.

[Ryan_M]

Ok maybe I'll try a different bar then, 400x90? It's certainly not cost prohibitive, and <10% the cost of a new frame. I'm pretty stuck on not being able to add any spacers. When I built the bike I used all supplied spacers and cut the steerer tube to that, since I could shorten it if I wanted to remove the spacers. I could maybe add a 5mm spacer (I guess I'd have to model and print one) with still having enough steerer for the stem to safely clamp onto. New bars might already have enough spacers. I saw Hambini made an extended plug(?) to add a little height. I could reverse engineer that and make one if absolutely necessary.

[Sakizashi]

Ok maybe I'll try a different bar then, 400x90? It's certainly not cost prohibitive, and <10% the cost of a new frame. I'm pretty stuck on not being able to add any spacers. When I built the bike I used all supplied spacers and cut the steerer tube to that, since I could shorten it if I wanted to remove the spacers. I could maybe add a 5mm spacer (I guess I'd have to model and print one) with still having enough steerer for the stem to safely clamp onto. New bars might already have enough spacers. I saw Hambini made an extended plug(?) to add a little height. I could reverse engineer that and make one if absolutely necessary.

Do you have a separate bar and stem? I couldn't tell if it was an integrated setup or not. I personally hate integrated front ends. I know they theoretically save a few watts but the hassle of maintenance goes way up; and with a bike computer out front and a relatively aero computer mount not sure there is that much there. It would also allow you to test a few widths and see if that works. Kalloy Uno stems and Zipp B grade alloy bars can be had pretty cheap for this purpose.

I wouldnt bother with Hambini's "hack". These have been out and for sale for a couple of years. https://www.velobike.co.nz/collections/all-bike-accessories/products/steerer-tube-extender

This complete product is probably better than trying to make your own (and likely cheaper). This brand mostly focuses on track bikes. I would consider it a last resort because you are already near or max the spacers for that frame. Most brands will say 40mm to 50mm from the bearing are the max spacers you should use.

[Takiyaki]

I havent ridden the Eglath but it and the VB-R-066 are at the top of my list for next builds

I did find that going to narrower bars (42 to 38) and turning the hoods in really helped shorten reach. I never got a fit (I know I know) but I went through some iterations... once I got the seat height and setback right (pulling the saddle back + away from bars actually took weight off my wrists and helped me engage my glutes/hamstrings more) the fit has been great. I have an old FM098/FM208 which is kind of a quasi-endurance frame geometry wise. An Eglath/VB-R-066 would let me keep the same fit with a slammed stem (which is important).

[zerstorer]

Ok maybe I'll try a different bar then, 400x90? It's certainly not cost prohibitive, and <10% the cost of a new frame. I'm pretty stuck on not being able to add any spacers. When I built the bike I used all supplied spacers and cut the steerer tube to that, since I could shorten it if I wanted to remove the spacers. I could maybe add a 5mm spacer (I guess I'd have to model and print one) with still having enough steerer for the stem to safely clamp onto. New bars might already have enough spacers. I saw Hambini made an extended plug(?) to add a little height. I could reverse engineer that and make one if absolutely necessary.

Also don't forget the bar angle, a -6 deg will feel less stretched than a-10deg even if the other parameters are the same. You are also not limited to the Ican bars as long as you find one with the right top bearing cover. One versatile one is the 5D handlebars on AliExpress. (Vision clone)

However, buying the original Ican ones would provide u the extra spacers you need to squeeze in 5mm extra spacer(if possible) and that would help.

Also like what Takiyaki mentioned things like more saddle setback(when reach is reduced) and or slight lowering of saddle height also helps to improve comfort.