Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames

[bremerradkurier]

It would be great if Taiwan had their own premium version of Aliexpress, maybe with previous gen Merida open mold frames, as long as they had a way to keep off mainland produced product that's just been relabeled.

[BalticSea]

Bit more food for thoughts regarding value - how does Winspace compare against in-house brands like Radon? Just saw one of their offerings with a 12 speed Ultegra Di2 groupset for 2800 euros: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/radon-vaillant-disc-9.0-2. Even with bad wheels, value is through the roof as groupset alone is 1500 euros.

On a unrelated note, Twitter bike has been rebranded in the West:
https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/lobito-rv08-restrospec-2023-road-bike/139664896/p

[Macedingle]

The more mainstream brands don't want be to associated with anything "Chinese." Quite ironic if you ask me. So I needed to widen my scope beyond Chinese frames in order to attract new brands for reviews. Brands like Specialized and Giant aren't exactly giving low-level YouTubers like myself "free" frames, which meant I've spent more of own resources in 2023 than all the years past. Yishun R086D, Giant Propel, and TanTan x38 (plus all the associated groupsets for each) were all bought with my own money.

His own resources. This is why the man is an UNBIASED GOAT. Make a damn pateron already and take our money!

[carbonazza]

I'm going to be brutally honest here as well.

I'm likely one of the "super experienced members" you mentioned.
For about a decade, I've been assembling frames and wheels directly from China.
My journey began with discovering groups like MTBR, iPlay, Pieter, etc., and eventually led me to chinertown.com
Infinite thanks and love to Sitar_Ned!!
I hope my contributions have helped build this fantastic forum and gave something back from what I learned here.

I'm fortunate to have a well-paying job that allows me to build bikes for friends and family as a hobby, at no cost to them.
My goal is to provide them with great bikes at fair prices and to make them happy.

I'm historically particularly biased towards Carbonda and Lightbicycle, brands that you amusingly never mention.
This isn't because they pay me (they don't). It's because, among all the providers I've tested, they have never let me down.
Their products are neither the cheapest nor overly expensive.
Moreover, if anything goes wrong, their customer support surpasses that of any Western brand I've dealt with.

I understand that some people, like Trace Velo, Joe, to some extent Hambini, many others, maybe you, chasing followers to carve out a living on YouTube and social media.

However, this has turned on the marketing machine around here.
No-name frames are suddenly sub par, while stickered frames selling at double the price, or even worse, branded frames are the real deal.
Persuading folks they need some stiffness and aero benefits only pros might need.
And it works! People are seeking broader validation and rely on branded visuals to reassure themselves they're not making a misguided decision.

It doesn’t bother me people trying do their thing on YouTube and elsewhere.
But your arrival here has sadly contributed unintentionally to the spoiling of the pristine wilderness that Chinertown once was 

[PLA]

Well said sir.

[TidyDinosaur]

Bit more food for thoughts regarding value - how does Winspace compare against in-house brands like Radon? Just saw one of their offerings with a 12 speed Ultegra Di2 groupset for 2800 euros: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/radon-vaillant-disc-9.0-2. Even with bad wheels, value is through the roof as groupset alone is 1500 euros.

That depends... It is great value if you can't build a bike yourself... (the radon is discounted for the moment I see)
If you can build a bike you can get about the same with a nice wheelset and totally integrated cables for not much more.
1500 for the groupset, 600-700 for a frame (not winspace I guess), 400-500 for a wheelset and 300-400 for the rest...

With the Radon there is the chance you will have to swap out parts to get it to your liking so the price will go up (saddle, stem, tires, wheels after a while...)

[Takiyaki]

I'm going to be brutally honest here as well.

I'm likely one of the "super experienced members" you mentioned.
For about a decade, I've been assembling frames and wheels directly from China.
My journey began with discovering groups like MTBR, iPlay, Pieter, etc., and eventually led me to chinertown.com
Infinite thanks and love to Sitar_Ned!!
I hope my contributions have helped build this fantastic forum and gave something back from what I learned here.

I'm fortunate to have a well-paying job that allows me to build bikes for friends and family as a hobby, at no cost to them.
My goal is to provide them with great bikes at fair prices and to make them happy.

I'm historically particularly biased towards Carbonda and Lightbicycle, brands that you amusingly never mention.
This isn't because they pay me (they don't). It's because, among all the providers I've tested, they have never let me down.
Their products are neither the cheapest nor overly expensive.
Moreover, if anything goes wrong, their customer support surpasses that of any Western brand I've dealt with.

I understand that some people, like Trace Velo, Joe, to some extent Hambini, many others, maybe you, chasing followers to carve out a living on YouTube and social media.

However, this has turned on the marketing machine around here.
No-name frames are suddenly sub par, while stickered frames selling at double the price, or even worse, branded frames are the real deal.
Persuading folks they need some stiffness and aero benefits only pros might need.
And it works! People are seeking broader validation and rely on branded visuals to reassure themselves they're not making a misguided decision.

It doesn’t bother me people trying do their thing on YouTube and elsewhere.
But your arrival here has sadly contributed unintentionally to the spoiling of the pristine wilderness that Chinertown once was 

This is unfair and kind of wrong IMO.

1, Pat does not make a living off of YT. I know first hand what YT pays creators. His channel is def a labor of love.
2, some of Pat's recommended frames are exactly the kind of no name brands you claim influencers dunk on.
3, even if YT influencers were as bad as you claim (which they aren't), they have no material effect on you. Carbonda & Light Bicycle still exist (and Light Bicycle is a brand Peak Torque loves). So you can keep buying and building their stuff, and enjoying their products and service no differently than before
4, Chinese bike stuff was going to get more popular and mainstream w/o influencers. The Chinese bike industry WANTS to grow and become mainstream. Them offering high quality stuff at great pricing was going to make them popular no matter what. So the growth of the industry as well as popularity was a foregone conclusion as long as the product and service provided satisfactory value.

I feel like you are unhappy that Chinese bikes aren't a secret anymore.... IDK, on one hand they kind of never were- the long existence and growing popularity of this forum is proof of that. But on the other hand, they still are- I'd wager the average road cyclist doesn't know much about Chinese bike brands outside the fact that they exist. I'm really not sure what your issue is or why people like Pat are to blame 

[Wildh24]

Takiyaki I agree with you on those points. In particular the average cyclist hasn't a clue to look at these options.  95% of people who buy a bike are looking to the big brands for a variety of reasons the biggest of which they just don't know enough and want a carry away product.

Personally I appreciate people who are early adopters and willing to share their experiences on here or YT so I'm not sure why the knock.

Lightbicycle, nextie, etc kind of opened the doors to these less expensive direct options. They make great products, but if I'm being frank, their prices are slowly rivaling some of the more mainstream brands and the value isn't what it used to be.  That's not bad or wrong. It's just what it is and I think likely what their business goal was in the first place. Can't fault them for wanting to make an actual profit on what they're doing. I still consider them every time I'm looking, but end up just buying a similar product for less on Ali. 

To each their own I guess. I have no issues with either side as it's just opinion.   

[Mic553]

This is unfair and kind of wrong IMO.

Regarding Pat it's probably a little unfair. But carbonazza has a point: The more companies like winspace see how they are seen as reputable brands delivering higher quality, the higher their prices will rise. Even more so, if they pay something for the marketing and being named and shown by "influencers". And the whole point of buying those Chinese frames is to spare all the cost for marketing-bullshit. Not buying a name, but just the frame for just riding. I would prefer to keep it that way.

[Takiyaki]

Regarding Pat it's probably a little unfair. But carbonazza has a point: The more companies like winspace see how they are seen as reputable brands delivering higher quality, the higher their prices will rise. Even more so, if they pay something for the marketing and being named and shown by "influencers". And the whole point of buying those Chinese frames is to spare all the cost for marketing-bullshit. Not buying a name, but just the frame for just riding. I would prefer to keep it that way.

That's well within those brands' rights IMO. Similarly, as a consumer it's your/my right to not buy from brands that don't deliver what you deem to be good value.

But it's not an industry-wide thing. On one side you have Winspace hiking up prices (from high to insane IMO). On the other side you have brands like Velobuild who have barely increased prices for years, while still updating their lineups and providing decent service. And then you have the whole spectrum in between. So painting the whole industry as one extreme, and then blaming that perceived change on influencers just doesn't seem correct or fair to me.

Takiyaki I agree with you on those points. In particular the average cyclist hasn't a clue to look at these options.  95% of people who buy a bike are looking to the big brands for a variety of reasons the biggest of which they just don't know enough and want a carry away product.

Personally I appreciate people who are early adopters and willing to share their experiences on here or YT so I'm not sure why the knock.

Lightbicycle, nextie, etc kind of opened the doors to these less expensive direct options. They make great products, but if I'm being frank, their prices are slowly rivaling some of the more mainstream brands and the value isn't what it used to be.  That's not bad or wrong. It's just what it is and I think likely what their business goal was in the first place. Can't fault them for wanting to make an actual profit on what they're doing. I still consider them every time I'm looking, but end up just buying a similar product for less on Ali. 

To each their own I guess. I have no issues with either side as it's just opinion.   

I think there's still a value proposition for getting Light Bicycle wheels vs equivalent Bontrager/Zipp etc. Especially when you factor in customization.

Plus everything is just getting more expensive. A lot of the Chinese brands price increases have been way below inflation. I think I bought my Dengfu frame for $550 in 2018-2019. That's not far off for an equivalent frame today. Western brands haven't been anywhere near as conservative in their price hikes.

I work in data/engineering so I have a pet peeve for anchoring opinions to real information. We can perceive anything how we want but if someone wants to levy accusations or criticisms they have to be rooted in reality IMO.

[Tijoe]

Ever since Interbike folded and BRAIN was purchased by Outside, detailed statistics regarding detailed bicycle purchases are all behind paywalls.  All we can find these days regarding bicycle sales are top level unit sales and $$ information.  How does this pertain to this discussion?   As I understood it, 80+% of all bicycle sales are sold as complete bicycles by the top ten companies. The other 20% are the smaller name companies.  Last I knew, perhaps 1% or less of bicycles are built by individuals who purchase a new frame.   This forum is getting closer to having 7000 members.   I am guessing , but perhaps 3000 of our GLOBAL members purchase frames from China and build their own bikes from the ground up, this is nothing in the big picture of selling bicycles.  When I look at the list of 10 frames Pat listed,  most of these companies have fairly low mfg capacity, a few list 3K frame per year.  (On a side note, Giant is the largest Bicycle company in the world, and one Giant frame made pat's list)

This says to me that a person trying to be an "influencer" regarding reviewing and recommending Chinese manufactured frames sold on Aliexpress is statistically insignificant.   Even if a new Chinese frame manufacturing company starts to gain traction with their own branded frames,  their real sales potential lies in having a bicycle importer pick up their product and brand it under the importer's product name.   

The average cyclist is too lazy or believes it is too difficult to build a bicycle from the ground up.   Therefore this discussion is for a very small niche in a very small market.

[Wildh24]

Regarding lightbicycle and rims...I just realized too that I'm often building my own wheels so likely that factors into my value equation and proce comparisons. They do a good job.

Great point on inflation and prices. Mainstream brands have been wildly crazy vs the stuff we're discussing.

[PLA]

So painting the whole industry as one extreme, and then blaming that perceived change on influencers just doesn't seem correct or fair to me.

Joe from panda has reiterated many times that the biggest return on investment for Chinese brands has historically been and still is driven by influencers reviewing their products. Lightcarbon told me that they had a big increase in individual product orders after influencer reviews were released, same goes for Yishun, too, except my takeaway from my discussion with Yishun was they viewed it as a negative since it takes up a lot of time for single frame orders.

[cramy]

Luke from trace velo talking about the forum in his last video about the elite wheels

[patliean1]

Influencers may have the biggest return on investment (tangible sales generated against marketing dollars spent), but probably not for the overall sales of any given brand. Especially for a large OEM factory. Winspace of course is probably one of the only exceptions here. It's an easy method to sell a few extra frames without much marketing effort.

Take VeloBuild for example. What are the overhead/production costs to manufacturer a frameset? Maybe a couple of hundred dollars? So if VeloBuild sends out a "free" frame in exchange for review, and that video review generates even two frameset purchases at full price, VeloBuild is already net positive on their investment. We just don't know how much of VB's sales in it's entirety are driven specifically as a result of influencers.

The whole Chiner Bike gatekeeping is interesting. I've been a huge fan of hip hop since the 1980's, so I understand the feelings of wanting to keep a sub-culture at a grassroots level versus going mainstream globally. This also reminds me of the hipster culture in late 2000s and early 2010s. We want to keep things underground even to the detriment a brand's sustainability. At the end of the day every brand/factory/agent is in the business of making money. With or without the help of influencers.

So I've been making videos for over 3 years now and I live in a large metro city. I'm also very active in the cycling community here. However...I have YET to encounter any Chinese brands in the wild that I've reviewed except for Winspace. A few pairs of Hypers and a single T1500 frameset. Talk about perspective. Granted, the social pressure/marketing here to ride S-Works frames and Pas Normal kits (in my particular demographic of cyclists) is very high. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But no Chinese Bike Dude influencer is going to usurp that.

Sidenote: I've had my eye on Light Bicycle's Falcon WR65 wheels for a couple of months now. 65mm deep, 32mm external, and 25mm internal is such an obnoxious combo that I have to try it for myself. Gonna lace them to DTSwiss 240s.