Author Topic: The definitive thread for 1-1/2 Internal Routing headsets... (or) wtf tho?  (Read 1585 times)

lantz

I could be, likely am, entirely obtuse. Like most folks here, I'm driven by curiosity and the insatiable urge to tinker. That is to say: I'm not a bike mechanic, even if I pretend to be one in my garage.

Okay, that said: I have had a *fuck* of a time figuring out the nuance of how to manage this 1-1/2 headtube standard that requires this "fixing ring" or "centering ring" to accommodate and center up the 1 1/8 steerer tube.

It *seems* that these frames are built with the assumption you're going to get the integrated bars withe frame, so the spacers are all meant to work together - trying to use a different bar+spacer set leads to a wierdness in how the spacers sit on the "centering ring"

- Every centering ring that I get has a ~3mm stack above the top of the headset bearing assembly.
- The only spacer assembly that's *ever* fit on that giant stack, is the one that came *with* the handlbars that came with the TanTan X38.
- I've ordered:
-- The One integrated bar, Jawbone integrated bar, Fire Spirder internally routed stem that all came with their own spacer sets.
-- Each of these spacer sets includes a centering ring (or multiple) and a base spacer meant to sit flush against the frame, but for some reason it *never* sits correctly?

What am I missing? Why is ever centering ring/fixing ring a couple of mill too tall for the provided base spacer? I must be doing something wrong, eh?

Please god, what is the move here?



Sakizashi

I actually have found myself with a small business making and designing headset covers to be adapters for these integrated routing. Below is a summary of what I know. It’s certainly not definitive and applies more to mainstream brands than chinese brands, but I hope it’s helpful. I also hope, I dont make too many errors here as I try and type out what i know.

The first thing to know is that there isnt a single bearing size. The bearings are sized by ID (inner diameter), OD (outer diameter), two chamfers which are denoted InnerXOuter, and by H (height).

The bearing size is going to be frame specific, so you should always check to make sure you are getting the right one. For example there OD ranges from 49.5-52mm, ID from 39.5-42mm, ACB is usually [36 or 45] X 45.

Different brands also have different designs for their headset compression rings and systems. Here is a rundown of the most common ones in no specific order. There is no compatibility across these systems unless you are using a system designed to provide it.

FSA ACR (also used by Bianchi, Merida, Orbea, and Winspace)—uses a 40mm ID, 52mm OD, 7mm H, 36x45 bearing. How far in the frameset the top of the bearing sits depends on the brand as does the resulting design of the compression ring, but generally should sit 4mm deep in the frame. However, 2.5mm depths are also common as are 1mm depths. Compression ring is alloy and ~7mm thick. This is the most commonly used system by a wide margin and there are compatible parts made by other manufacturers.

Deda DCR (used by Time, Van Rysel, Botechia, prior gen Colnago Bikes and MANY smaller brands like Standert)—uses a 52mm OD, 40mm H, 8mm H, 45x45 bearing. Compression ring is a 15-20mm deep high pressure injection molded Nylon item. Depths again can vary for specific models of bike, but most are ~4mm deep. However, Deda does make a variety of C Rings of varying heights and to fit both 45x45 and 36x45 bearings in an attempt to make their system more universal. Deda does make shims for these, but they can be hard to find. IMO, this is the system easiest to retrofit to a frame.

Token/Enve (also used by no 22 and Ventum)— uses a 52mm OD, 40mm H, 8mm H, 45x45 bearing. Compression ring is composite ~7-8mm thick. These come with a set of shims and can be a good fit if you can find them.

Acros (used by Canyon, Focus and Scott)—these solutions vary a lot but the most common uses a 42mm ID, 52mm 6.5mm H, 45x45 bearing. Compression ring design varies from nylon with metal inserts to just nylon and are <10mm thick. I would use this only with an Acros bearing because of the dimensions.

Trek— 40mm ID, 51mm OD, 6.5m H, 36x45. Compression rings and headset spacers are nearly model specific at this point, however the Domane Gen 4 alloy compression ring and spacers are considered a service part for most of the models, so their use is Trek OK with. Unless you have a burning desire to fit a trek cockpit to your bike. Its probably best to avoid for other bikes.

Specialized— 40.5mm ID, 49.5 ID, 6.5mm H 45x45 bearing, SL7/Allez sprint use an alloy compression ring, post recall this is a two part item. SL8 uses a composite ring. Both versions then use the same spacer. Their fitment varies by model again. This is again an avoid using part unless you have a perfect match in terms of bearings. The compression ring is not the right fit for non Specialized bikes and the current SL7 version is a recall fix for their specific bikes.

Cervelo— 34.1 ID, 46.9 OD, 7mm H, 45x45 bearing— These use a proprietary everything including steerer shape.

Of these only the FSA, Deda, and Enve are designed for aftermarket use with the first being the most common, and a lot of space between the use of the Deda system and the Token. There is no guarantee that these will fit on your bike without measuring width a depth gauge.

For safety you absolutely should match both the chamfer and height. Because of the way the Deda and Token systems work you can use shims inside the headset. With Deda, you can just cut delrin DUB crank spacers into a C shape and use those as well.

I personally, would be wary of using a 3d printed or generic plastic compression ring, especially if they struggle to hold preload as the injection molded engineered nylons typically used for these parts are quite a bit stronger than can be produced with 3d printing. This is a pretty important part of the bike to get right and a loose headset is one fastest ways to kill a carbon frame.

Hope this is helpful to someone and thanks for reading this novel of a post.

EDIT: I should have added that a good number of the chinese integrated bars can either fit directly to an FSA split spacer or come with a transition spacer for the FSA system, so thats a good system to use from a compatibility with bars standpoint. The Deda system is more frame compatible.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2024, 12:20:12 PM by Sakizashi »

coffeebreak

I am possibly, totally obtuse too so please excuse me in advance, but by centering ring do you mean the C-ring? The one that allows you to pass the cables through the cutout? If that is the case, yes it will sit taller and the tallness depends on manufacturer. On my VB it is much too tall, on my Yoeleo its not as tall but still pokes out of the bearing. Real FSA ACR spacer set or copies of it (Kocevlo on Aliex) fit on both. If you have photos, dimension etc. those will help because the base spacer does leave a gap of 1-1.5mm on both my bikes but there is no headset play. I am left with multiple spare Kocevlo bearing caps and some spacers that I can send your way if you are in the USA.

Bigbobby1482

I actually have found myself with a small business making and designing headset covers to be adapters for these integrated routing. Below is a summary of what I know. It’s certainly not definitive and applies more to mainstream brands than chinese brands, but I hope it’s helpful. I also hope, I dont make too many errors here as I try and type out what i know.

The first thing to know is that there isnt a single bearing size. The bearings are sized by ID (inner diameter), OD (outer diameter), two chamfers which are denoted InnerXOuter, and by H (height).

The bearing size is going to be frame specific, so you should always check to make sure you are getting the right one. For example there OD ranges from 49.5-52mm, ID from 39.5-42mm, ACB is usually [36 or 45] X 45.

Different brands also have different designs for their headset compression rings and systems. Here is a rundown of the most common ones in no specific order. There is no compatibility across these systems unless you are using a system designed to provide it.

FSA ACR (also used by Bianchi, Merida, Orbea, and Winspace)—uses a 40mm ID, 52mm OD, 7mm H, 36x45 bearing. How far in the frameset the top of the bearing sits depends on the brand as does the resulting design of the compression ring, but generally should sit 4mm deep in the frame. However, 2.5mm depths are also common as are 1mm depths. Compression ring is alloy and ~7mm thick. This is the most commonly used system by a wide margin and there are compatible parts made by other manufacturers.

Deda DCR (used by Time, Van Rysel, Botechia, prior gen Colnago Bikes and MANY smaller brands like Standert)—uses a 52mm OD, 40mm H, 8mm H, 45x45 bearing. Compression ring is a 15-20mm deep high pressure injection molded Nylon item. Depths again can vary for specific models of bike, but most are ~4mm deep. However, Deda does make a variety of C Rings of varying heights and to fit both 45x45 and 36x45 bearings in an attempt to make their system more universal. Deda does make shims for these, but they can be hard to find. IMO, this is the system easiest to retrofit to a frame.

Token/Enve (also used by no 22 and Ventum)— uses a 52mm OD, 40mm H, 8mm H, 45x45 bearing. Compression ring is composite ~7-8mm thick. These come with a set of shims and can be a good fit if you can find them.

Acros (used by Canyon, Focus and Scott)—these solutions vary a lot but the most common uses a 42mm ID, 52mm 6.5mm H, 45x45 bearing. Compression ring design varies from nylon with metal inserts to just nylon and are <10mm thick. I would use this only with an Acros bearing because of the dimensions.

Trek— 40mm ID, 51mm OD, 6.5m H, 36x45. Compression rings and headset spacers are nearly model specific at this point, however the Domane Gen 4 alloy compression ring and spacers are considered a service part for most of the models, so their use is Trek OK with. Unless you have a burning desire to fit a trek cockpit to your bike. Its probably best to avoid for other bikes.

Specialized— 40.5mm ID, 49.5 ID, 6.5mm H 45x45 bearing, SL7/Allez sprint use an alloy compression ring, post recall this is a two part item. SL8 uses a composite ring. Both versions then use the same spacer. Their fitment varies by model again. This is again an avoid using part unless you have a perfect match in terms of bearings. The compression ring is not the right fit for non Specialized bikes and the current SL7 version is a recall fix for their specific bikes.

Cervelo— 34.1 ID, 46.9 OD, 7mm H, 45x45 bearing— These use a proprietary everything including steerer shape.

Of these only the FSA, Deda, and Enve are designed for aftermarket use with the first being the most common, and a lot of space between the use of the Deda system and the Token. There is no guarantee that these will fit on your bike without measuring width a depth gauge.

For safety you absolutely should match both the chamfer and height. Because of the way the Deda and Token systems work you can use shims inside the headset. With Deda, you can just cut delrin DUB crank spacers into a C shape and use those as well.

I personally, would be wary of using a 3d printed or generic plastic compression ring, especially if they struggle to hold preload as the injection molded engineered nylons typically used for these parts are quite a bit stronger than can be produced with 3d printing. This is a pretty important part of the bike to get right and a loose headset is one fastest ways to kill a carbon frame.

Hope this is helpful to someone and thanks for reading this novel of a post.

EDIT: I should have added that a good number of the chinese integrated bars can either fit directly to an FSA split spacer or come with a transition spacer for the FSA system, so thats a good system to use from a compatibility with bars standpoint. The Deda system is more frame compatible.

This is the best writeup I've seen for integrated headset standards, thanks a lot, really solved some confusion.

Do you know, if a frame is deda DCR compatible, do I need specific deda bearing cover and deda spacers for full integration? I've looking into buying an EXS handlebar or Avian bar, and they offer DEDA dcr compatible spacers. But would that be compatible with deda bearing cover?

On my DARE vsru frameset, I needed a special compression ring from deda. I wrote to them and they made one for me in less then a week. So great service from them, their table for compatability is really good. Link: https://dedaelementi.com/media/wysiwyg/dcr-tech/DCR-DedaDCR_Compatible-bicycle-models_25062024.pdf
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 05:47:47 AM by Bigbobby1482 »

Sakizashi

This is the best writeup I've seen for integrated headset standards, thanks a lot, really solved some confusion.

Do you know, if a frame is deda DCR compatible, do I need specific deda bearing cover and deda spacers for full integration? I've looking into buying an EXS handlebar or Avian bar, and they offer DEDA dcr compatible spacers. But would that be compatible with deda bearing cover?

On my DARE vsru frameset, I needed a special compression ring from deda. I wrote to them and they made one for me in less then a week. So great service from them, their table for compatability is really good. Link: https://dedaelementi.com/media/wysiwyg/dcr-tech/DCR-DedaDCR_Compatible-bicycle-models_25062024.pdf

I dont know for Avian, but for EXS i think whether or not they supply the spacer stack and headset cover or just a transition spacer varies depending on the bike model you specify as part of your order.

lantz

Holy shit - some really incredible info here, well more than I expected when I posted this in a late night stupor under the fading lights of my garage and the frustration of altering a centering ring.

Sakizashi - holy fuck. One of the most informational posts I've seen here, or anywhere. This is pure gold. I also felt/feel uncool about using the 3d printed/nylon/plastic spacer, *especially* now that I have shaved it down, lol. I'll run down some FSA ACR (after measuring, of course). Do you have an example of how to be sure I'm measuring correctly? Sounds like the FSA ACR is the right way - I couldn't find many examples of these aftermarket on ali, ended up ordering an entire headest from Kocevlo that includes a set of spaces that I'm *wildly* hoping will work, haha.

Coffeebreak - sounds like we're in similar-ish boats, appreciate you contributing! I *do* mean the C-ring, I used "centering ring" or other language just based on how it's labeled by the manufacturers on Ali, hehe. I'm a little confused by your comment thought - are you saying you ride wiht a gap between the spacer and the frame? That's what I'm trying to avoid, haha. Curious if you have a link to any options you've used?


coffeebreak

are you saying you ride wiht a gap between the spacer and the frame? That's what I'm trying to avoid, haha. Curious if you have a link to any options you've used?
Yep. The base cap cannot be rubbing over the frameset as you steer the handle. There is probably a 1mm gap on both the bikes but no headset play.

I bought this twice: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804948224583.html
Comes with 4-5 different base caps. I needed only one but this was the cheapest even with all different base caps. I do appreciate them trying to cover every base, pun intended.

lantz

Yep. The base cap cannot be rubbing over the frameset as you steer the handle. There is probably a 1mm gap on both the bikes but no headset play.

I bought this twice: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804948224583.html
Comes with 4-5 different base caps. I needed only one but this was the cheapest even with all different base caps. I do appreciate them trying to cover every base, pun intended.

Makes sense - can you share a photo of the gap that you're working with just for my reference!? I shaved down a centering ring to about a 1mm lip from like 3mm and it feels good, but alas, it's plastic, so that's annoying. I'd rather adjust the basecap and not alter the c-ring if I can avoid it.

Ultramic

I experienced the same issue trying to build up a Chinese frame using a different handlebar to the stock one. The solution was to ask the frame seller to send me the stock c-ring only and then use my preferred handlebar.

In my scenario, it was clear that the non stock c-ring is much thicker (hence the gap to the frame) versus the stock c-ring which was flatter (and it was also metal).

It will all depend on your setup though as the c-ring typically has a notch which the headset cover connects to so it turns in tandem with the handlebar.

coffeebreak

Makes sense - can you share a photo of the gap that you're working with just for my reference!? I shaved down a centering ring to about a 1mm lip from like 3mm and it feels good, but alas, it's plastic, so that's annoying. I'd rather adjust the basecap and not alter the c-ring if I can avoid it.

Attached two of my bikes' photos, VB GF002 and Yoeleo R12. Don't have pictures of 696 handy but it too had similar 1mm~ gap.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2024, 10:23:30 PM by coffeebreak »