Seraph Bikes Superlight 836g X68 - Alternative to SL8 Fakes?

[patliean1]

You managed to have a spin on the X68 at all??

Tomorrow

[Rebel_Yell]

Tomorrow

I thought they wouldn’t or didn’t sell you one?  How long turn around on the order?

[patliean1]

"Road the TT-X68 today for the first time. Added a ride and ended up with a Century Day. I posted a picture of the bike on my first Strava ride today. It definitely is better than my Tarmac SL7 in every way. I'll be at the Illinois State Criterium Championship June 7th if you want to hook up and check it out. 56 cm - 14.6 lbs. without pedals and cages."

Some real world feedback from a friend of mine. I'll be seeing this in person in a few weeks.

^^^^^^^

[Sakizashi]

I suspect this post is going to generate a lot of hate, but this whole thread from top to bottom makes TanTan out to be real sketch.

First, this frame is inspired by the SL8 but different in some key parts, then it turns out that those parts specs are different from what was stated, and this frame is just a straight-up attempt at a SL8 copy. Here, TanTan is being shady with the details. Then, when safety-critical, functional plastic parts have issues, their customer service recommends that people here go out and buy the parts from Specialized because "they will fit perfectly." So it was supposed to be a 1:1 copy after all? Sander's photos also confirmed this.

Along the way, we have a fork that is broken in a way that looks bad for TanTan, and there has been continued evasion regarding the details about this frame, they spelled their own brand name wrong when painting a frame, lots of sketch customer service, the weird story about SPCycles and Tantan copying their frame...why are people still putting in orders with this company?

[Ultramic]

What do you expect ? The only reason why people don't call this a counterfeit is because it doesn't have an sworks  sticker on the downtube.

[Sakizashi]

It doesn't require a brand sticker to be considered counterfeit under IP laws in most countries. It's already a counterfeit because, as a 1:1 copy, it likely violates both copyrights for design and trade dress. There is a reason the nose of the SL8 was named the "speed sniffer": as a distinct feature, it gains protection under IP laws. I understand that people object to IP laws, are unaware of or uninterested in them, or object to the prices Specialized charges, as well as the notion that you are unlikely to face any legal consequences in most places until you try to sell your frame, regardless of whether you disclose.

^is not legal advice. After all, laws only protect those who bother to get them enforced. However, this was also a potential fight I didn't want to pick.

I am not surprised that, as a monocoque structure, having the "skin" be the same shape leads to similar characteristics. I am shocked that people tolerate being lied to and gaslit by a vendor. The appeal of a fake SL8 overcomes all of that?

[Sander2177]

Yes, it is a counterfeit frame — I’ve never claimed otherwise. However, some of us have looked for a patent on this particular frame design, which should be publicly available if it exists, and so far we haven’t found one. That might be why they’re able to sell this frame as they do.

I have a spare seat tube arriving today, and I’ll try it in my SL8. From memory, it didn’t fit previously because it was slightly too large, so there may be subtle differences in the frame’s shape — or maybe not.

They don’t sell the frame with Specialized branding because that would clearly infringe on trademarks and IP rights.  Hence why the counterfeits are not so open obviously.


Yes, there have been customer service issues with the forks quality and fitment. But for what is essentially a £500 frame, many feel it’s worth the risk.

The fit issues aren’t ideal, but they seem to be relatively rare. Plenty of people on this forum are riding these frames without issue.

Ultimately, it’s a cheap frame, and people need to manage their expectations accordingly — both with the product itself and with the customer service experience.

[Sander2177]

^^^^^^^

Now this I cannot wait for!
Will we get a YT video for this one Patrick

[glepore]

It doesn't require a brand sticker to be considered counterfeit under IP laws in most countries. It's already a counterfeit because, as a 1:1 copy, it likely violates both copyrights for design and trade dress. There is a reason the nose of the SL8 was named the "speed sniffer": as a distinct feature, it gains protection under IP laws. I understand that people object to IP laws, are unaware of or uninterested in them, or object to the prices Specialized charges, as well as the notion that you are unlikely to face any legal consequences in most places until you try to sell your frame, regardless of whether you disclose.

^is not legal advice. After all, laws only protect those who bother to get them enforced. However, this was also a potential fight I didn't want to pick.

I am not surprised that, as a monocoque structure, having the "skin" be the same shape leads to similar characteristics. I am shocked that people tolerate being lied to and gaslit by a vendor. The appeal of a fake SL8 overcomes all of that?

Just as a point of info, I spent way too much time down the rabbit hole of the USPTO website regarding the sl8 out of curiosity. The sl8 shape isn't patented, although the sl7's is. I suspect Specialized thought that the sl8 was too similar and would be considered prior art or ? In any event, "speed sniffer" is trademarked, as the logos.
I don't find Tantan's behavior regarding this frame much different that the majority of similar vendors. There are exceptions, obviously, xiamen carbon speed comes to mind, but most are not transparent. But go ask Specialized which factory makes the actual sl8, all you'll get is "Taiwan". So there's that.

[cramy]

Given your height (185 cm) and inseam (91 cm), both sizes could work, but they offer different riding positions:
   •   Size 56: Offers a more aggressive, race-oriented position with a lower front end. Suitable if you prefer a stretched-out posture and are comfortable with a longer stem or more seatpost extension.
   •   Size 58: Provides a more upright position with a taller head tube. Better if you prioritize comfort over aerodynamics or have a longer torso.

thanks Sander for your feedback, I managed to find a specialized retailer next to my place today so I went to check the SL8 and discuss with the vendor, he suggested me a 58 according to my height and inseam, he also pointed out it will give me more comfort.

[Dareios]

Yes, it is a counterfeit frame — I’ve never claimed otherwise. However, some of us have looked for a patent on this particular frame design, which should be publicly available if it exists, and so far we haven’t found one. That might be why they’re able to sell this frame as they do.

I have a spare seat tube arriving today, and I’ll try it in my SL8. From memory, it didn’t fit previously because it was slightly too large, so there may be subtle differences in the frame’s shape — or maybe not.

They don’t sell the frame with Specialized branding because that would clearly infringe on trademarks and IP rights.  Hence why the counterfeits are not so open obviously.


Yes, there have been customer service issues with the forks quality and fitment. But for what is essentially a £500 frame, many feel it’s worth the risk.

The fit issues aren’t ideal, but they seem to be relatively rare. Plenty of people on this forum are riding these frames without issue.

Ultimately, it’s a cheap frame, and people need to manage their expectations accordingly — both with the product itself and with the customer service experience.

As long as they sell it under the TanTan or Seraph name and not under the real one as a "replica" (like Taiwan Eisen and the other fake sellers) I see no problem. If they managed to actually get the carbon layup right so that weight, stiffness, comfort and ride feeling is similar enough then hats off. It's not like they are trying to actually fool anyone into thinking that they buy an actual SL8.

[jonathanf2]

I don't mind clone framesets, especially if they offer something slightly different from the frame they're based on. For example the SPCycle R088 has UDH, mechanical cable routing and uses standardized 52mm headset bearing. The ICAN FL1 (Aethos clone) has a T47 BB and internal cable routing. Both frames are fairly affordable and lightweight for price point (sub 800g). Also the X68 frameset doesn't do anything different to set it apart from the inspiration frame which makes it kind of boring. Better off buying the X70 frameset (R088 copy, rip-off, or low key collaboration, who TF knows)!

I think the biggest issue I gather from this thread is that Tan Tan isn't a great company to work with. They apparently will ignore you, hold your payment hostage, sell you a sh*t exploding fork, ship your frame at their own discretion and will steal photos without your permission. I'm surprised people are still supporting this company, just to own a fake Gucci SL8 frameset!

[fhill]

I bought that frame with the thought that they enhanced several parts as for example the bearings and the distance of the frontal brake caliper screws, they didn't, am I mad? A little bit.
Do I regret buying the frame? Hell no, it rides really well for me, enough stiffness while having enough comfort.

[Sakizashi]

As long as they sell it under the TanTan or Seraph name and not under the real one as a "replica" (like Taiwan Eisen and the other fake sellers) I see no problem. If they managed to actually get the carbon layup right so that weight, stiffness, comfort and ride feeling is similar enough then hats off. It's not like they are trying to actually fool anyone into thinking that they buy an actual SL8.

Just as a point of info, I spent way too much time down the rabbit hole of the USPTO website regarding the sl8 out of curiosity. The sl8 shape isn't patented, although the sl7's is. I suspect Specialized thought that the sl8 was too similar and would be considered prior art or ? In any event, "speed sniffer" is trademarked, as the logos.
I don't find Tantan's behavior regarding this frame much different that the majority of similar vendors. There are exceptions, obviously, xiamen carbon speed comes to mind, but most are not transparent. But go ask Specialized which factory makes the actual sl8, all you'll get is "Taiwan". So there's that.

Both the notion that branding is required to make a counterfeit and the notion that a patent is needed to protect the shape are objectively incorrect. First, the USPTO doesn’t publish provisional patents, and it's likely that if there was a design patent, it wouldn't have been granted yet since the SL8 is new. However, a design patent is sort of hard since you need to separate out functional and nonfunctional elements because of the hairbrained way US patents are structured.

Second, and this is a more important point, a total design copy is likely to copy elements of a design considered ornamental or something that functions as a brand identifier. A trademarked feature is a precise example of the second. These would be protected via copyright and trade dress in most places where forum members live. These are also basically non-existent as functional IP in China, so enforcement action is likely limited to seizure and destruction of their parts by customs enforcement on entry, and I would guess that the only exposure TanTan has.

As individuals, enforcement seems rare unless you are selling a lot of parts or are a marketplace where fakes are commonly being sold or you do something that causes the original brand harm to their image.

I generally love that people are on bikes, so my initial intention was not to go on a rant about IP, but rather express shock that, as consumers, there isn't more outrage at TanTan’s behavior.

Edit: also, the title of this thread is another example of the mockery, given that the frame turned out to be another SL8 Fake.