Sapim CX Ray vs Alpina Hyperlite Aero

[Sebastian]

Regards the data sheets it's more than noise. 
And cold forging raises the stiffness due to grain boundary movements and gliding of layers..Basically a big "crash" crystallographically.. like traffic jam... nothing (atoms and layers)  can move that easy, cause everything is stuck. Well that's frankly a little bit too simple, but that's what happens.

While that is totally true, Sapim will 100% apply some form of heat treatment which will reverse some of the martensitic cristalline structure in the metal after cold forging. After that amount of forging, this spoke would be way too brittle otherwise. After all, the CX Ray is known for its exceptional fatigue resistance. I’ve never seen one break.
Since we know neither the exact alloy they’re made of nor the exact heat treatment process, it’s impossible to know how similar the Laser and the CX Ray really are in their metallic structure.

And apart from all that, they definitely feel different IME

[Serge_K]

While that is totally true, Sapim will 100% apply some form of heat treatment which will reverse some of the martensitic cristalline structure in the metal after cold forging. After that amount of forging, this spoke would be way too brittle otherwise. After all, the CX Ray is known for its exceptional fatigue resistance. I’ve never seen one break.
Since we know neither the exact alloy they’re made of nor the exact heat treatment process, it’s impossible to know how similar the Laser and the CX Ray really are in their metallic structure.

And apart from all that, they definitely feel different IME

A friend crashed on a wheel using Pillar wing 20 spokes. He crashed fairly hard, and broke 4 spokes, from memory, front wheel. Do you think the wheel would have survived had it used Sapim CX Ray? Hubs and rim were fine, he had it rebuilt.
Fatigue and impact are different things, but it's worth asking

[Wet Noodle]

This is not elastic deformation what happens in cold forging.

Sure. Nobody claimed that, ever, but sure.

Just a quick recap:
@Sebastian: "CX-Rays are good, but Lasers are not stiff enough"
Me: "This doesn't sound right, as both are supposed to have the same stiffness (same material, same cross sectional area ...)."
You: "Yea, well, but also... [bunch of stuff that affects strength]."
Me: "The hammered section gets STRONGER, not STIFFER."
You: "[Some more stuff that affects STRENGTH]"

If you want to claim that cold working does increase material stiffness, would you mind producing something to support that claim? Like, anything (well, maybe a few steps above a reddit post, you get me). Mein Grundstudium ist wirklich schon extrem lange her und ich mache keinen Hehl daraus, dass ich den Großteil daraus vergessen habe I'm willing to learn.

No, they don't. Sapim give a tensile strength of 1500N /m2 for the Laser and 1600N / mm2 for the CX-Ray.

Stiffness is not tensile strength. Nor do the both correlate in a simple linear fashion. Again, your claim was about stiffness, not strength.

[Sebastian]

Correct me if I’m wrong @WetNoodle cuz I’m happy to learn.
But even for the exact same cross section of two objects, a difference in grain structure in the steel alloy will result in a different young‘s modulus, therefore one spoke might be more elastic than the other. And that will result in more or less lateral flex of the wheel, which is what most people (me included) experience as a stiff wheel (or not). And that is why I think these two spoke types result in a difference of (lateral) wheel stiffness.

[Sebastian]

Fatigue and impact are different things, but it's worth asking

Just because I’ve never seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’m pretty sure everything can break in a crash.