Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: Stef Biggel on January 22, 2022, 01:02:55 PM
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Hy Folks,
according to Cybrsrce remark i will show here my Enduro Build based on a FS830 open Frame from Haideli.
First, sorry for two things: I‘m not an native englisch Speaker so my sense are maybe raw and im not so a good picture guy. For that there isn’t documented all steps as fine.
Prolog: I was on fire from the AM831 Frame to build a SC Hightower Clone and ordered it in the Black Week for 889$. But as the Problems became clear beginning December i asked Haideli they will change my order into the FS830 which was shown from “Eddy” a day before. My Frame was right ready for delivery and they stoped it to send me a FS830 on Dec 22th. The Frame arrived Europe on jan 3rd, than custom had to be done and finally the feame reached me after 22 days. For my opinion a very good delivery and a great service from Heideli.
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A lot of people, including me, was wondering how the links are designed and where the Bearings are build in.
Now its clear, they put the bearings left and right into the Frame and smash it with a throw axel. The head of the axel is conical, so there ist a very stabel centric conection:
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As (i guess) quite normal, there is no grease in the bearings. So i open all and put grease inside.
When i turned the bearings i thoght that the lowest right is rubbing. Later when the shock was mount i can‘t detect a problem in function. Checking the play of the linking Parts with lateral force show that all fits together well.
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Can’t wait to see the complete build!
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Next step was putting in the Red Jagwire brake lines, the Hagwire gear Cabel and the RS Reverb 150mm. My frame is a 17“, the Reverb 150mm fits nearly complete inside. Only the last 2cm would‘t going… but i Think it‘s a Problem of the steat tube diameter.
I covered the Frame with dyedbro …. Holly shit i made it terrible, it looks so easy in the description.
Putting in the RS Monarch wasn‘t such easy, because Heideli write in the Alibaba description the shock end mont ist 8x22mm front and 8x30mm rear. But in true it‘s 8x22mm both. So got some sawing and filing job, with eye on Symmetrie of the spacers.
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The headset ZTTO and the Bottom bracket BB92 from ZTTO wasn‘t spectacular to implement. All the Pockets fitting well.
I Build in a Fox 36 Performance OEM Fork with 170mm travel
My brakes are Magura MT7 with Shimano XT lever. The connection with the Jagwire QF works realy fine:
So long guys, today the carbon Rims are arrived… i have to do some builing job now ✌
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The headset ZTTO and the Bottom bracket BB92 from ZTTO wasn‘t spectacular to implement. All the Pockets fitting well.
I Build in a Fox 36 Performance OEM Fork with 170mm travel
My beakes are Magura MT7 with Shimano XT lever. The connection wirh Jagwire QF works realy fine:
So long guys, today the carbon Rims are arrived… i have to do some builing job now ✌
Did you replace the bearings in the ZTTO BB? They’re known for failing very quickly. When I was going to build a Haideli frame (831/830), I got a set of the replacement Enduro Bearings you need from
Wheels Manufacturing; it’s part number SB-24X37, with two 24x37 sealed bearings.
Even after replacing the bearings the ZTTO bottom bracket is still cheaper than the Wheels Mfg version so it’s not a terrible deal.
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Thank you for the new thread. It got really hard to keep up with your posts and updates on the build in original FS830 thread due to... well.. philosophical topics.
I'm very interested in the frame myself, ability to use a coil shock is a big plus for me over 831, so every photo, detail and subjective feelings on the frame and the future completed bike are much appriciated.
Thanks again :)
Looking at your photos, I can't explain why but this pivot looks suspicious to me:
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3566.0;attach=9072;image)
does it "feel" okay?
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My late shift is over.
The Beowulf 35mm carbon Weelset is fine. Only the freehubboddy was delivered wrong. I need XD, but this are peanuts.
I understand in the description that for 203mm rotors fits without a Adapter. They wouldn’t, you need a 6“ pm to 180mm with to shims (maybe there is other adapters solutions, but I don‘t have).
Slowly it looks like a real bike ;):
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A few other views
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does it "feel" okay?
Without proofen it by riding, yes. It seem to be stable without play and it’s nearly the same construction as the 2019 pivot firebird.
I release the Air from the Dumper a bit an test the travel… all works fine without play an rubbing.
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Did you replace the bearings in the ZTTO BB? They’re known for failing very quickly. When I was going to build a Haideli frame (831/830), I got a set of the replacement Enduro Bearings you need from
Wheels Manufacturing; it’s part number SB-24X37, with two 24x37 sealed bearings.
Even after replacing the bearings the ZTTO bottom bracket is still cheaper than the Wheels Mfg version so it’s not a terrible deal.
I hadn't, how it works to remove them, is it possible to smash them out from inner side?
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Maybe try taking a hot air blow dryer and heat up the frame stickers and see if that will let you squeeze the air bubbles out and stretch around any curves so it lays flatter. You can also take a needle and poke a small hole in any bubbles you can't get rid of so you can squeeze out any air.
Good luck!
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I hadn't, how it works to remove them, is it possible to smash them out from inner side?
I believe you need a bearing removal tool and press. I got the Park BBT-90.3 removal tool and HHP-3 press, I think these are the correct tools but it’s been a while since I researched all of this because I changed my build plan a couple months ago from a Haideli BB90 frame to a Carbonda with BSA30.
The consensus from the ZTTO thread-together BB discussion on MTBR seemed to be that the ZTTO bearings always fail quickly and it’s wise to replace them right away rather than wait for them to fail.
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My friend had that ztto bb and bearings failed after a month or so of regular xc rides(3-4 long rides a week).
As far as I know he just hammered out stock bearings and pressed in enduro bearings into the cups. It has been more than a year already and still works.
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A lot of people, including me, was wondering how the links are designed and where the Bearings are build in.
Now its clear, they put the bearings left and right into the Frame and smash it with a throw axel. The head of the axel is conical, so there ist a very stabel centric conection:
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3566.0;attach=9066;image)
OK, so regarding the questions I had about the pivot design, contrary to what I assumed earlier (http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3172.msg33167.html#msg33167), the bearings are in the frame. So it's this type of pivot:
(https://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3172.0;attach=8646;image)
The link eyelets have shoulders that press on the inner races (directly or through shims that compensate the axial clearance). There doesn't seem to be a spacer inside the frame between the inner races. This means that if you torque the bolts too tight, the eyelets will flex inward and push the inner races inwards, crushing the balls :o This is not a great pivot design, sorry to say Stef, but it's no worse than the AM831 pivot between the lower link and the front triangle. So extra care should be taken to not overtorque the bolts (and maybe the 15 Nm specs are already excessive...).
I'm not sure why they chose a conical bolt head.
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There doesn't seem to be a spacer inside the frame between the inner races. This means that if you torque the bolts too tight, the eyelets will flex inward and push the inner races inwards, crushing the balls :o This is not a great pivot design
Indeed, not a great design, though as far as I know this is quite common and even for some brand frames. One local mechanic has been ranting about this for years now :D And in extreme cases he usually machines spacers to remedy this.
I'm almost sold on fs830, but I'll wait for Stef to post some after ride reports :)
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Indeed, not a great design, though as far as I know this is quite common and even for some brand frames.
Brand frames? Which ones? Not the few I've looked at lately.
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I'm almost sold on fs830, but I'll wait for Stef to post some after ride reports :)
But you know it‘s winter here in south germany ;) ?
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…., the eyelets will flex inward and push the inner races inwards, crushing the balls :o This is not a great pivot design, sorry to say Stef, but it's no worse than the AM831 pivot between the lower link and the front triangle. So extra care should be taken to not overtorque the bolts (and maybe the 15 Nm specs are already excessive...).
I'm not sure why they chose a conical bolt head.
Ok, thanks to you. I have torque with exact 15Nm and glue it with locktide medium.
If i have to remove the maybe defect bearing when a few rides are over and it's feel not good with the bearing i will fit in a Spacer tube in correct length.
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But you know it‘s winter here in south germany ;) ?
Road trip!
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Road trip!
I will do my very very best ;).
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Ok, thanks to you. I have torque with exact 15Nm and glue it with locktide medium.
If i have to remove the maybe defect bearing when a few rides are over and it's feel not good with the bearing i will fit in a Spacer tube in correct length.
Ah, well, the bearings were maybe already damaged because the bolt was overtorqued!
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Ah, well, the bearings were maybe already damaged because the bolt was overtorqued!
Yes this is a very possible szenario why the bearing sounds so strange by rotating.
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Yes this is a very possible szenario why the bearing sounds so strange by rotating.
Try tightening the bolt on the links removed and check if the eyelets flex inwards before you reach the torque spec - if this is the case, upon final mounting, you should insert a 0.1 mm shim (or less!) in the clearance and stop tightening the bolt as soon as the shim no longer moves freely.
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Try tightening the bolt on the links removed and check if the eyelets flex inwards before you reach the torque spec - if this is the case, upon final mounting, you should insert a 0.1 mm shim (or less!) in the clearance and stop tightening the bolt as soon as the shim no longer moves freely.
I will try, thx
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Ok folks,
Before the weather becomes bad, I’ve done a testing drive with the new FS830. For my opinion it works fantastic, but you must understand I came from a XC bike with only 120 mm travel.
I ride a really short home trail behind my house, only a half of an hour with a few short steep hill climbs, a few little jumps and some steep and narrow curves … and it feels really great. Detecting no loose rear or things like that. Very direct reaction, climbs as well as my xc and it decent as the hell. It feels a little bit like the SC nomad from a friend of me.
So hopefully this helps the guys who are interested in the frame and I will give more experience when I’ve done longer rides.
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I took a luggage scale and checked the wight:
It’s 14,4 kg for a 170mm/160mm Travel Enduro Build don’t forget the Kenda & Pirelli tires are not the lightest ones. Not too bad.
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I had a longer ride today round the valley. This means 600 meter hight up and down. Unfortunately last night the weather was rainy. So all the bottom was defrosted and become very muddy. In this case we wasn’t to fast in descent.
A smile is still in my face. The bike works great. Riding over root-carpet damps great, slowly drive over Steps works good, i think its really direct to drive on narrow curves (hair needle). And i’m really surprised how good it is uphill, i haven't expected. There is nearly no bobbing in the rear. So it wasn't necessary to block the Dampers this ride.
I’m 176cm and the 17” frame fits perfect to me.
So my experience with this longer ride is, that the Link elements works fine and the rear weel is relativ stable by pushing it left and right by hand.
For torquing the link i used the method that JJJ has suggested a view posts before.
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Good read! Thanks for all the updates! Keep them coming please :)
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I had a longer ride today round the valley.
What are your impressions about crankset you are using on this bike? As I see this is Fovno Goblin cranks (http://www.fovno.com/product/cranksets/goblin-crankset/) with some different "branding". Does these cranks stiff enough? Haven't you got any problems with main screws which connecting crank arms to the axle?
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Till yet i’m satisfied with the crankset (i use the 30T).
The screws wasn’t a problem. But by torquing i think the Axel is a little bit to short. If the Axel is tighten first time the crank is working tough. Now a few meters hight behind me it works better. I think the plastic caps from the bottom Bracket sits down a bit.
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Ok folks,
Before the weather becomes bad, I’ve done a testing drive with the new FS830. For my opinion it works fantastic, but you must understand I came from a XC bike with only 120 mm travel.
I ride a really short home trail behind my house, only a half of an hour with a few short steep hill climbs, a few little jumps and some steep and narrow curves … and it feels really great. Detecting no loose rear or things like that. Very direct reaction, climbs as well as my xc and it decent as the hell. It feels a little bit like the SC nomad from a friend of me.
So hopefully this helps the guys who are interested in the frame and I will give more experience when I’ve done longer rides.
Thanks for your sharing, happy that you like it.
Many thanks.
Eddy
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I've had several rides with the frame now and so far the rear triangle is fine and doesn't have any weird degrees of freedom.
You might see me trying the ZTTO disc rotor - but those are crappy ones - I switched to Galfer in the front and Hope in the rear.
Since the bearings may be overtightened, I start changing them. I measured them as 15mm x 24mm x 7mm. Double row, full fill bearings are available for this dimension (3802 2RS MAX). This can absorb 30% more load and also act from the side. But I will still install a spacer tube. I will post the correct dimensions in this thread.
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Yesterday my Ztto Bottom Bracket is gone to the Hell … time for Installing the Enduro MRA2437LLB
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hi...are you using the ztto ceramic or just the normal bearing?
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Ceramic
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Ive heard nothing but bad things about those ztto bbs. Are you getting a whole new bb or just replacing the bearings?
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You're right, I've only heard bad things. Unfortunately, when I heard about it, I had already bought it.
I'm just swapping the bearings because the case isn't that bad.
Finally all CNC parts are ok, things like bearings and brakes are problematic.
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what was the problem with the ztto rotors?
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what was the problem with the ztto rotors?
First problem, they don't run straight. Both front and rear were bent 1-1.5 mm, so it was not possible to adjust the brakes without the rotors touching the pads.
The second problem is that the surface is very rough. therefore there is no good braking performance and the pads are also put under enormous stress.
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Now i’ve replaced my bottom bracked bearings. This works without problems. I glued the new one additionally with locktide in the cups.
We will see the next weeks how it works.
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OK, so regarding the questions I had about the pivot design, contrary to what I assumed earlier (http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3172.msg33167.html#msg33167), the bearings are in the frame. So it's this type of pivot:
(https://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3172.0;attach=8646;image)
The link eyelets have shoulders that press on the inner races (directly or through shims that compensate the axial clearance). There doesn't seem to be a spacer inside the frame between the inner races. This means that if you torque the bolts too tight, the eyelets will flex inward and push the inner races inwards, crushing the balls :o This is not a great pivot design, sorry to say Stef, but it's no worse than the AM831 pivot between the lower link and the front triangle. So extra care should be taken to not overtorque the bolts (and maybe the 15 Nm specs are already excessive...).
I'm not sure why they chose a conical bolt head.
Can a spacer gusset be added by the consumer to brace against excessive torque? I worry this may be a long term weakness if the frame is constantly flexing near the bearings when under a load.
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I will implement a Spacer as soon as my time it allows, i will give a report on this thread.
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Has anybody yet ridden one of these bikes and put it through the paces after being built?
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Has anybody yet ridden one of these bikes and put it through the paces after being built?
Other than Stef, only one that I’m aware of — the better part of a year ago. He’s the one who had his painted to look like a Pivot Firebird 29. Unfortunately he hasn’t posted in months and didn’t reply when I posted asking him some questions about it.
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I have build this evening the spacers for Link this evening.
The lower connections has the same space between the Bearings - 43,5mm
The upper connection has 31,85mm space between the Bearings
I took a stainless steel tube. 17mm diameter with 15mm drilling hole.
Now I can torque the new bearings (3802 2RS max) without damaging.
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I rode the modified bike this afternoon. Pretty quick for my opinion. It feels super solid. Now that the bearings have been changed, the rear wheel feels better than before. And before that it was good.
I think it will be one of my last posts on the build. I may post a video if I make one worth posting.
In summary, I can say that I did not find any critical problem with the FS830 frame. Yes, the design of the link connectors is not great. But I had no problems with them. To be on the safe side, I changed the bearings and put the spacers between the bearings. It took me an hour per connection including production with the lathe. So I think summasumarum is ok for a frame with Pivot Firebird genes.
I'm having a lot of fun with it and looking forward to next month when I can test it for longer descents in the Alps.
As long as,
Stefan.
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I rode the modified bike this afternoon. Pretty quick for my opinion. It feels super solid. Now that the bearings have been changed, the rear wheel feels better than before. And before that it was good.
I think it will be one of my last posts on the build. I may post a video if I make one worth posting.
In summary, I can say that I did not find any critical problem with the FS830 frame. Yes, the design of the link connectors is not great. But I had no problem with them. To be on the safe side, I changed the bearings and put the spacers between the bearings. It took me an hour per connection including production with the lathe. So I think summasumarum is ok for a frame with Pivot Firebird genes.
I'm having a lot of fun with it and looking forward to next month when I can test it for longer descents in the Alps.
As long as,
Stefan.
Thanks for updating your experience. Can you tell a little more about how you made your bearing spacer? It seems like it would have to make contact with the outer rings of the bearings while clearing the inner bearing race so that it can spin freely. Also, what did you use to upgrade the bearings? I am interested in getting one of these frames. But I wish to have all of the facts straight before I make a purchase.
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I have to explain it with a drawing, give me a little time for that please.
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Hello everyone
I made a really simple drawing from the link conection to show how the spacers are implemented.
Hopefully it will help the guys understand.
If not, do not hesitate to write.
Best wishes
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So, you cut a piece of (19 mm od) stainless steel tubing the proper length (43.5mm) and set it between the bearing races? That does not look particularly difficult. It requires removing one of the pressed in bearings to allow the tubing into the frame. Hold the tubing in place with an axle or dowel. Then press in the other bearing. Does this seem about correct? I have better access to aluminum spacers than stainless steel tubing. I hope that would work also.
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Yes, i took a 18mm stainlesssteel Tube, made with the lathe sure that that the barrel isn‘t curvie and produce a Barrel 15mm inner and 17mm outer diameter. It is enough to removing one Bearing (I remove both because I replace them completely).
I’m pressing in both bearings with the spacer in the middle simultaneously. The Axis of pressing Tool holds the Spacer in Position.
You are right, it‘s really simple.
Sure you can also use a Alloy spacer material. I wasn‘t sure of needed thickness of the wall so I use steel but 1mm is also ok with alloy.
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Thanks for the information. If the tubing is cut to a 43.5mm length it will fit nicely between the bearings? And other than this upgrade the frame has worked out well for you? I am thinking about buying this frame and putting a bike together this spring. My choice is between this and the FM1002. Either seems like a good choice. Although I am partial to the Pivot style rear end of this bike.
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Hello endo.alley,
Yes the 43.5mm for the two lower connections (front Frame and rear triangle) and the 31.85mm for the upper connection fits exactly between the Bearings. Before you cut tube you can measure it, by measuring the Bearing outside to outside and subtract 14mm. Than you are quite sure.
I have only one other problem (the rear shock absorber connection is 8x22mm not 8x30mm as in the description) with the Frame and i drove nearly 5000 up- ans downmeters since i build it. Also with little jumps (no big Air, this is not my game) and a lot of stony fields (S1-S3). I drove the SC Normad from a friend of me, and i think it works as fine as (the Normad is 650B i know, but in the home trail terrain this don‘t make a difference).
The FS830 is nearly per mm the same frame as the Pivot Firebird from 2019 (except of a longer Seattube) but don‘t have the superboost rear. But in my opinion it makes the Frame not as stiff and stressful.
So if you use high quality components (not as me Ztto Rotors and bottom braked, but i have exchanged both) i think you will get a great bike. I‘m thinking about building the same for my wife (but she says it isn‘t necessary
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And if you're removing a bearing, it's worth swapping out both bearings for "Enduro 3802 2RS max"... those 6 bearings will cost you less than €80 (or $) and then you'll have a much sturdier bearing that's fully filled with grease.
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Hmm. It would be great if the manufacturer would address this problem with a machined spacer added to the frame.
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I promised to write somthing to the build if it is worthy: the last 4 days was worthy. ;D
We done 6500 altitudemeter down in Vinschgau (italy) over long trails (1000-1400m down) in classic natrual S1-S3(short sections) tarrain.
The FS 830 did a mega Job and if i feld uncomforable in short moments, the rider was the problem not the bike.
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Such a lovely place for mtb
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15.000 meter down in Reschen/Nauders two weeks ago S1-S3.... awesome :D :P
The Bike works still good 8).
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How’s the 830 doing these days? Been a while since the last update…
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Customized painting accepted.
Thanks.
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How’s the 830 doing these days? Been a while since the last update…
Hi man,
the FS 830 still works great. I did my last ride on Sunday and I still feel perfect on the bike. There are a few scratches in the meantime, but the frame is stable and all bearings adhere perfectly to the frame.
This year I rode about 60,000 meters of altitude from the bike park (but not so big jumps) to long alpine nature trails (my favorite).
Now the bike is being revised. I donate a few upgrates (Zeb instead of Fox36; Gx AXS instead of shift cable, coil instead of air damper & longer seatpost). My hardtail is looking forward to the parts donated by the FS-830 ;D.
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Hy Volks,
i did some upgrate job on my FS830 frame.
- ZEB Fork
- SD Coil Damper
- SRAM Eagle GX AXS with Rocker Shifter
- Garbaruk Rear Derailleur Cage and pullys
(So it is more or less a Eagle X01 AXS)
Look forward the first ride in spring … now its Hardtailtime
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So how does it work with a coil shock?
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Till end of march i’ll only ride my Hardtail, don’t expect a review till then ✌️.
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The FS830 works f.... awesome with the coil damper.
I'm going down for 1400 alt meters on a verry rough Tessin Mulattiera, fantastic. ;D