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Advice on where to buy a frame - dengfu/ican/velobuild ? I'm looking at doing a bike build. Ideally 12 speed, mechanical shifting, hydraulic disc bike.  Something strong and long-lasting. I'm 187cm tall and over 100kg, so I'm not looking for anything ultra-light (massive weight saving opportunities exist above the saddle  ;))  I'm thinking about mainly using Chinese parts and I notice L-twoo are releasing a fully hydraulic (not cable actuated hydraulic) groupset. 

Anyhow, I digress, My starting point is the frame and I've done heaps of reading and youtube video watching, but am still a bit stuck on what brand of frame to buy. From what I've read, I'd probably order it along the following lines:

If I'm wanting peace of mind, quality control, communication, warranty and service then:

Winspace
Yoeleo
Elves

...but I'd be paying a premium for the brand and not necessarily getting a better frame (except maybe Winspace?).

If I'm wanting an equivalent (or better) quality frame at a lower price without having to pay for a brand name, then one of the following:

Dengfu - R12
ICAN - A22
Velobuild - R-177

My biggest fear is buying something where there hasn't been any pride taken in the build which may mean defects, problems with the build, and lack of responsiveness if I there is a problem which I need to get resolved.  Essentially, things like visible poor workmanship if I were to put an endoscope inside the frame. issues with carbon walls that might be too thin in places, rough finishing around the bottom bracket. disc-brake attachment points that don't line up properly, alignment issues in the wheel axle holes, things that might make internal routing of the cables nearly impossible.

From what I've read these 3 companies seem to have a very good reputation with people on this forum, so I will probably go with one of these. In short, this is a final due-diligence to ask if anyone thinks I should choose one over the other or whether there are greater risks with one versus the others? Any other companies I should consider?  :)

Thanks!
October 29, 2022, 10:25:21 PM 		1
Re: Advice on where to buy a frame - dengfu/ican/velobuild ?
Quote from: carbonazza on November 10, 2022, 12:28:38 AM
Interesting. Wasn't it prohibited before, and only available for the Chinese army?
What percentage would you evaluate to be T1000 and what zones in the frame get it?

just adding my two-cents worth, as I'd read this in the past:

"According to the Japan Carbon Fiber Manufacturers Association classification T1000 is actually at the low end of the intermediate modulus fibre range and M55J is at the very high end of the high modulus range."

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=126139#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Japan%20Carbon,of%20the%20high%20modulus%20range.
"
November 10, 2022, 03:09:43 AM 		1
Re: Advice on where to buy a frame - dengfu/ican/velobuild ?
Quote from: 1Sigma on November 14, 2022, 01:10:57 PM
I've heard from a carbon frame manufacturer that any given carbon frame is going to use a combination of different types of carbon fibre, in different weaves (and UD) in different layups, because they will lend different different physical properties to the finished frame.   

This is what I've read too.  The carbon layup needs to get the right balance of stiffness, weight and comfort, which means you don't want the same properties in all parts of the frame.  E.g the top tube doesn't take most of the stress, so using expensive carbon there is a waste.  Also the resin, which gives the bike its stiffness, is very important too.  Thicker resin means the carbon fibres are more separated, or conversely carbon layers touch each other with no resin in between.  Thinner resins get between the fibres allowing them to be closer together and provide the frame with more strength for less weight and allow for better ride quality: https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/1278/string-and-glue-a-closer-look-at-resin

I'd love to know how the open mould frames compare to branded frames from this perspective, and also, how the frames from different open mould manufacturers compare to each other.  I'm not sure how one could make that assessment beyond what you can see on the surfaces and how the ride feels.  It would be good if there was more transparency in this area.
November 14, 2022, 02:28:23 PM 		1
Re: Frame pricing as a guide of quality
Quote from: jannmayer on November 14, 2022, 07:39:46 PM
What do you define as "quality"? Is a heavier frame with a simple layup lower quality than a lighter frame with more complex layup and compliance designed in? The first is probably cheaper to produce but could easily be a more solid and reliable choice. Or are you concerned with how well the frame is finished?

I don't know that there will be a very strong correlation between whatever is used to define "quality" and price. Since there isn't a very good way for us to determine the quality before buying, a lot of it relies on our perception of quality, and that is much less accurate.

I think most vendors are ultimately charging as much as they think they can get, and this might not have much to do with the end experience for the purchaser.

Not to say that there aren't quality differences between those vendors (and even between frames for each vendor) but I don't think there's any better way to determine that than by reading through the posts here and attempting to account for how popular each frame is.

For me it's the latter example.  You want lateral stiffness for efficient power transfer, but you also want vertical compliance for comfort and handling.  Yes, you can get a very stiff bike that's more reliable, but you get to a point where it's so stiff you might as well get an alloy frame.

Quality of materials contributes to this factor. The grade of carbon (in the right places) and the quality of the resin, will affect weight and provide a better balance between lateral stiffness and vertical compliance.

Quality of workmanship too. If the carbon layers are not laid well, regardless of the quality of carbon and resin, the benefits of the more expensive materials get diluted.

In terms of the finish, yes, aesthetics matter, but it's probably bottom of the list for me.

I honestly have been reading the threads.  They have been very helpful, and expect that when I eventually settle on a choice, they will be even more helpful in the build process.  However, they haven't answered this question for me, so I was curious as to the views of others on this.

To be honest, just when I think I've arrived at a choice, something throws a spanner in the works.  An example: The ICAN A9 ticks a lot of boxes and the A9 thread on this forum suggests most people seem happy with it. The ICAN website also shows that it is a UCI approved frame. However, I've checked the latest UCI approved frames list and I can't see it there under ICAN or Triaero. It could therefore be that this is untrue or it could be that it is true but there is some delay in it being added to the list.  There is also one person whose fork had an extra hole in it that had been filled. On querying they were told by ICAN this was normal. There is also a road.cc review that gives a set of ICAN wheels a 3/10 largely due to flex, which makes me wonder about their frames.  Even though I've used ICAN as an example, when I research other frames, the issues might be different but the pattern is the same in terms of conflicting signals.
November 14, 2022, 10:09:11 PM 		1
Re: Frame pricing as a guide of quality Thanks all. That all makes sense and has really helped.  Hopefully my next post will be to say which frame I've ordered! Thanks again!
November 15, 2022, 01:41:55 PM 		2
Re: Speeder SC-R48
Quote from: Tines on December 19, 2022, 12:57:58 AM
Can you please not derail this thread ?
Sorry. I guess I did a bit.
December 19, 2022, 04:43:32 AM 		1
My Winspace T1500 build So, my T1500 arrived in the NY, my wheels arrived from Light Bicycle.  All in all, I'm really happy with the T1500 frame and the wheels from Light Bicycle.

I didn't go with the Winspace handlebars, mainly because they didn't have my size at the time, but partly cost.  The other components on the bike are:

- 105 disc groupset (mechanical shift)
- FSA stem
- Prime X-light handlebars (not aero, no internal routing) - mainly got these as they were cheap, light, recommended, and temporary (once, I'm happy with the sizing and fit on the bike, I'll at some point switch to a fully integrated handlebar and move the prime's to my old bike, if I like them).

Given no internally routed handlebars, cables are routed through the headset, everything goes into the down tube except for the front break (obviously).

OK, so I took on this project with virtually no bike mechanical experience.  Before this, the most I'd done was change my cassettes and chains. I generally don't even look under the hood of my car.

In terms of the build, I've completed the following, none of which I'd ever even tried to do before:

- cut carbon steerer tube down to size (seatpost was OK, just!).
- installed forks, stem, handlebars, shifters.
- installed seatpost and saddle.
- routed brake hoses, cut hoses down to size, installed new barbs and olives, bled brakes.

So all, in all, the only things I had left to do were:
- bottom bracket installation
- crank, chain and pedals installation + tune everything.

I'm really impressed with the T1500 apparent quality (haven't ridden it yet).  My only feedback is:
- I'm a bit concerned that there is no plastic guard separating the gear cables from the carbon on the frame as they run under the bottom bracket area, as the cable for the front derailleur comes out of the frame, and where the cable comes out of the rear chainstay above the thru axle hole. I'm worried about the cables cutting through the frame where there is contact.  As a result, I've left some of the plastic routing guides in those particular places.
- The seat clamp is really fiddly. It's a struggle to attach the saddle if you don't have 3 hands. You have to use their seat clamp because the seatpost is proprietary.

Today was press-fit bottom-bracket installation day.  Everything seemed to go really smoothly. The whole thing seemed to be straight and I thought it was done.  However, when I tried to put the cranks in, they wouldn't go out the other end.  I looked inside and found that the centre tube had not attached to the other side and while the bearings might have been OK, the centre tube had pressed in crooked (see photo).



So, I'm guessing this is not easily resolvable?  I'll need to somehow break the centre tube (which felt like plastic before I installed it) so that I can get a bottom bracket removal tool into position, then remove the BB and install a brand new BB (even assuming the BB is reusable, there's probably no way to just buy the centre tube?

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks
February 15, 2023, 01:30:51 AM 		3
Re: My Winspace T1500 build My build is finally complete!



Took me from mid Jan to now. It was a steep learning curve, but it was very enjoyable (most of the time). I also had some help from a friend at a local bike shop at times when I got stuck (bb issue mentioned in this thread, final gear tuning, front brake rub (turned out rotor was a bit bent, getting super-tight tyres onto the rim)

Final weight was 7.9kg without pedals and bottle cages for an XL.  To be honest, the weight is not a big thing for me.  Plenty of opportunity to cut weight on the rider! It's got 105 7020 groupset, chain catcher, not the lightest stem, an old saddle, more stack than it needs, longer seatpost than needed, so weight was to be expected.

I've done a quick test ride, but not a proper ride.  First impressions are very good.  Fit is not right and needs adjustment, stack, and handlebar positioning. The shifting needs a bit of work. Possibly too much friction from the guide lines I left in the frame due to my concern about contact points of gear cables on the frame (maybe I'm being too precious about that). Also I'm comparing it to my SL3 which has 105 7000 with fully external cables.
February 18, 2023, 09:59:12 PM 		11
Re: Ryet handlebars any good? Other handlebar options for D-shaped steerer tubes I have bought the Ryet.  Mainly due to confidence around compatibility, price and absence of any major red flags.. I'll let you  know how I get on.
November 19, 2023, 02:05:30 PM 		1