Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Cyclocross Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: Donramon94 on February 24, 2024, 03:26:43 AM
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Hi All,
I’ve just come across what looks to be a new Ican gravel frame.
https://icancycling.com/collections/gravel-bike-frame/products/gravel-bike-frame-graro
The Geometry (checked 54cm) appears to be quite race inspired.
Tyre clearance noted as 700x45c
I’ve been looking for an frame for a few months to do mainly road + light gravel.
Just wondering if anyone has either ordered one or come across this frame and what your opinion with Ican is?
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Looks ok, but couple of immediate flags. That's a proprietary seatpost with a profile that probably won't allow them to retrofit a 27.2mm insert, and it appears to only be available with a post which looks like it has 25-30mm of setback, which is going to be way too much for most people's fits these days. Those look like 40mm Ramblers in the photos, and it's already really close to the FD .. will a 45mm really fit on the rear in 2x on reasonably wide rims? I have my doubts, and I'd want more than 45mm anyway.
Re: Ican, I've had no dealings with them, but people's experience with the quality of their product and customer service has been very variable on these forums. They're increasing prices significantly now too. But they *should* be better than VeloBuild or TanTan.
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Would you prefer the X-Gravel 2 which features also all internal cable routing but has a standard seatpost? What other alternatives can be considered as race-inspired gravel?
Thanks in advance!
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Would you prefer the X-Gravel 2 which features also all internal cable routing but has a standard seatpost? What other alternatives can be considered as race-inspired gravel?
Thanks in advance!
Have you looked at the Airwolf YFR068?
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Yes had a look at the Airwolf as well. However, I would prefer to have BSA bottom bracket. Do you have any experience with the Airwolf Frame? Also the Airwolf has a special head tube design I guess.
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Yes had a look at the Airwolf as well. However, I would prefer to have BSA bottom bracket. Do you have any experience with the Airwolf Frame? Also the Airwolf has a special head tube design I guess.
No experience personally, but its half the price of the iCan. I'm almost fully decided to purchase one end of March.
The headtube is annoying but workable.
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Anyone pulled the trigger already? Apart from the price the frame seems really nice. Yes, the seatpost might be a deal breaker. But if anyone has had the chance to measure it's setback?
The BSA bb is rather a downside to me as bonded inlays have the potential to come loose. And then you are in more trouble than with a poorly fitted pressfit bb.
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Those look like 40mm Ramblers in the photos, and it's already really close to the FD .. will a 45mm really fit on the rear in 2x on reasonably wide rims? I have my doubts,
Are you saying all that from this photo in question?
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0871/7140/files/Graro_frame-1.jpg?v=1710828728)
The BSA bb is rather a downside to me as bonded inlays have the potential to come loose. And then you are in more trouble than with a poorly fitted pressfit bb.
Have heard BB shell bore not perfectly round but haven't heard threaded insert coming loose. For me manufacturers going back to threaded BBs (BSA, T47) is a very welcome news.
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I'm considering this frame a lot, I really like the look.
ICAN have an assembly video on their Youtube channel - I can't get the link to work for some reason. At 4:29 you can clearly see that the installed tire is a 45mm Rambler. The ICAN G25 wheels are 25 mm internal, so according to a bit of googling the Rambler should measure 46-47mm.
I have also been writing with Perry from ICAN, according to them the max chainring size in 2x is 46/33. But it looks like a GRX 48/31 in the video, and it doesn't seem to be close to the chainstays.
My main issue right now is that their handlebar doesn't come narrower than 400.
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Have heard BB shell bore not perfectly round but haven't heard threaded insert coming loose. For me manufacturers going back to threaded BBs (BSA, T47) is a very welcome news.
Staying with anecdotal observations. I never had issues with pressfit and if so I would have either bought a bb with a threaded inner shell - or simply glued in the shells with Loctite 683*.
From an engineering perspective the advantages of pressfit overweight the downsides. The biggest downside of pressfit is it's reputation because people are unaware of the proper installation process. Maybe I have to correct myself by saying the biggest downside of pf is therefore the higher chance of improper installation as opposed to threaded bbs.
This is also covered by "peak torque". I just couldn't find the video in which he said that. But while searching for the vid I came across another video which explains this topic: https://youtu.be/33IWHSGl1nU?si=an7GdPbuU_WQ3gx- (https://youtu.be/33IWHSGl1nU?si=an7GdPbuU_WQ3gx-)
Btw. I asked them a few questions:
is it possible to provide an own logo for the frame?
---Sorry, no
do you also offer the Graro fork without bolts?
---Sorry, no
how big is the setback/offset of the seatpost?
---15mm
do you offer a seatpost with less seatback?
---Sorry, no
is it possible to order the frame in pearl white and fork in chameleon?
---Yes.
* "wtf?! You would end up having worn bearings and therefore a frame to be dumped." Actually no. I just use a good quality bb with replaceable bearings.
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My main issue right now is that their handlebar doesn't come narrower than 400.
Do you need a stock handlebar?
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Staying with anecdotal observations. I never had issues with pressfit and if so I would have either bought a bb with a threaded inner shell - or simply glued in the shells with Loctite 683*.
* "wtf?! You would end up having worn bearings and therefore a frame to be dumped." Actually no. I just use a good quality bb with replaceable bearings.
Hmm. My experience is from BB30 but I am not alone. I have CAAD 10 and SSE2 both from 2014-15 timeframe. The CAAD came with squeaking bb when I bought it last year. Punched out the bearings and installed new (Wheels Manufacturing ABEC-5) and after a couple of months they started squeaking. I haven't changed it to thread together yet so I clean and lubricate every time squeaking returns. The SSE has Token thread together BB on it and it works fine. Its still technically press fit but I like the idea of two cups attaching to themselves than just latching onto frame.
The problem with BB30 and BB30a bb shells is there is no traditional bottom bracket as such - its just bearings pressed in and a c-ring prevents them from going all the way in. Those bearings, c-rings, and two cups/reducers to space out crankarms form a bottom bracket. If Loctite is used it will be around the bearings directly and if it bonds the bearings to frame, its frame dump the next time bearings need changing. Loctite is a big no there. Same thing with Trek's BB90.
When you say I use good quality BB with replaceable bearings, are you talking about BB386/PF30?
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Hmm. My experience is from BB30 but I am not alone. I have CAAD 10 and SSE2 both from 2014-15 timeframe. The CAAD came with squeaking bb when I bought it last year. Punched out the bearings and installed new (Wheels Manufacturing ABEC-5) and after a couple of months they started squeaking. I haven't changed it to thread together yet so I clean and lubricate every time squeaking returns. The SSE has Token thread together BB on it and it works fine. Its still technically press fit but I like the idea of two cups attaching to themselves than just latching onto frame.
The problem with BB30 and BB30a bb shells is there is no traditional bottom bracket as such - its just bearings pressed in and a c-ring prevents them from going all the way in. Those bearings, c-rings, and two cups/reducers to space out crankarms form a bottom bracket. If Loctite is used it will be around the bearings directly and if it bonds the bearings to frame, its frame dump the next time bearings need changing. Loctite is a big no there. Same thing with Trek's BB90.
When you say I use good quality BB with replaceable bearings, are you talking about BB386/PF30?
You're right. I was thinking about pressfit bbs with shells. I would not buy a frame with BB30. SRAM went away from this standard pretty quickly it seems.
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Do you need a stock handlebar?
No, I don't, and I have been looking at other options. That said, I'm a bit confused about compatibility between integrated headsets.
I'm also considering a traditional handlebar and routing the cables under the stem into the headset.
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No, I don't, and I have been looking at other options. That said, I'm a bit confused about compatibility between integrated headsets.
I'm also considering a traditional handlebar and routing the cables under the stem into the headset.
Judging on the pictures I would say the headset is fairly standard. Round and for 52mm bearings. Most generic handlebars will include the necessary spacers.
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Here is a drawing of the seatpost. It really seems to be just -15mm.
Edit: But wait ... now that I see the image a second time, I wonder where the blue reference line is.
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Here is a drawing of the seatpost. It really seems to be just -15mm.
Edit: But wait ... now that I see the image a second time, I wonder where the blue reference line is.
Maybe this drawing explains why this seatpost appears to have such massive setback. Setback is measured on the horizontal of course ... if their 'engineer' went for 15mm of setback relative to a line up through the bb and seat-tube, then ... ???
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Given a STA of 73, that results in a horizontal setback of 15.68. So not a big difference, assuming I got the trig right.
Eyeballing the drawing, we're losing another 10mm relative to the center of the seat tube though.
I noticed that the Nextie G2 has the exact same geometry: https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=648f566fec82fc001a96df32,65c2a0c6a244e9001aeae09c,
except for 10mm longer chainstays.
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Given a STA of 73, that results in a horizontal setback of 15.68. So not a big difference, assuming I got the trig right.
Eyeballing the drawing, we're losing another 10mm relative to the center of the seat tube though.
I noticed that the Nextie G2 has the exact same geometry: https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=648f566fec82fc001a96df32,65c2a0c6a244e9001aeae09c,
except for 10mm longer chainstays.
Yeah, the Nextie G2 is the same as the BXT 135 in which I was also interested - before I read about experiences with them. The frame has also 2mm wider tire clearance which goes for me into the wrong direction as I want max 40mm plus optional 30mm tires. But yes, given the quality of the G2 is good it should be a great alternative.
Regarding your maths. That's true, but I still don't know what the blue line is referring to. It seems so randomly placed. But since it is far from the center of the seat post the real setback could be indeed ~25mm. :-\ No one caring about geo would buy this frame. Too bad since I really would have liked it. :(
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Well, I guess it is the line that runs through the centre of the BB and parallel to the back of the seattube. Since other measurements like seat tube angle and top tube length are also taken off this line it seems to be fair to measure setback with this line.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0111/7470/7264/files/Graro_2048x2048.jpg?v=1706769017)
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Could be, but I'm not sure about this logic. Then a 0mm setback post would be around +10mm in direction of the head tube. And what about seat posts you can buy separately? They don't have a frame as reference, but still have a defined setback.
Edit: Regarding your theory the setback will be dependent from seat height for bent seat tubes.
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(https://cdn.rosebikes.de/cms/cms.65ba04cd357a96.36938494.png?im=Resize=(800))
"Seat Post
ROSE, 8 mm offset 400mm" :o
Now ICANs specs seem to be a lot more realistic ...
You may wonder why I am still sneaking around this frame. Well I really like it and I guess the quality is quite good. Plus with this frame I won't be scared of toe overlap. ;)
Currently I am undecided whether to take this frame an hope my saddle can be moved forward enough - or the YFR068 in L or XL. But the QA issues scare me off and that I seem to be between the two sizes.
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I pulled the trigger, and bought a Chameleon one in size 56. Really excited about it. Going to build it up with 11 sp mechanical Ultegra, and hoping to fit 50/34 chainrings on there. It's going to be my do-it-all bike with a road and a gravel wheelset.
Unfortunately, it won't show up for another 2 months :( (EU preorder for June 30).
A few things:
1) The reason it has similar geo to the BXT and Nextie, is that all 3 are very heavily "inspired" by the Scott Addict Gravel. That's also why I'm hoping 50/34 will fit, since that fits on the Scott.
2) When it comes to the setback, what matters is that we can achieve our preferred saddle position relative to the BB. This in turn can be determined from just 2 factors: The seat tube angle and the setback relative to the line through the bottom bracket. The reason the setback looks big is that the seat tube is shifted forward relative to the BB as seen by the blue line.
i) My current bike has a STA of 73.5 instead of 73 on the Graro. That results in shifting the saddle back roughly 5mm at my saddle height, relative to my current bike.
ii) My current bike has a setback of maybe 5mm, (round seatpost centered on the BB). This means another net 15-5 mm = 10mm setback.
iii) However, the clamp that holds the saddle rails is also much smaller on the Graro, which gives a bit of leeway the other way (roughly 7mm by my estimation).
I've concluded that I can easily achieve my current saddle position, even without slamming the saddle all the way forward.
Will definitely post a lot of measurements related to tire clearance, chainring clearance etc when I receive the frame!
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2) When it comes to the setback, what matters is that we can achieve our preferred saddle position relative to the BB. This in turn can be determined from just 2 factors: The seat tube angle and the setback relative to the line through the bottom bracket. The reason the setback looks big is that the seat tube is shifted forward relative to the BB as seen by the blue line.
i) My current bike has a STA of 73.5 instead of 73 on the Graro. That results in shifting the saddle back roughly 5mm at my saddle height, relative to my current bike.
ii) My current bike has a setback of maybe 5mm, (round seatpost centered on the BB). This means another net 15-5 mm = 10mm setback.
iii) However, the clamp that holds the saddle rails is also much smaller on the Graro, which gives a bit of leeway the other way (roughly 7mm by my estimation).
I've concluded that I can easily achieve my current saddle position, even without slamming the saddle all the way forward.
Yes, that is indeed the way it should be done. With a detailed geometry compare site you can see if the setback will work for you.
A tip: not all saddle rails are equally long, so if you can't find your correct position with the saddle you have, you can always see if there are saddles with longer rails. With my Hygge (only available with setback seatpost) I can only use one particular saddle because the rails are longer in the back. Nearly all the carbon saddles have too short rails in the back.
I should have done more comparing between frames and bought an other frame with less setback ???
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Yes, that is indeed the way it should be done. With a detailed geometry compare site you can see if the setback will work for you.
A tip: not all saddle rails are equally long, so if you can't find your correct position with the saddle you have, you can always see if there are saddles with longer rails. With my Hygge (only available with setback seatpost) I can only use one particular saddle because the rails are longer in the back. Nearly all the carbon saddles have too short rails in the back.
I should have done more comparing between frames and bought an other frame with less setback ???
Thanks! Curious what saddle you are using, as it is always nice to have a bit more adjustability. It's hard to compare saddle rails from pictures, especially since we're after the length in the back as you said and not the total length of the rails.
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Thanks! Curious what saddle you are using, as it is always nice to have a bit more adjustability. It's hard to compare saddle rails from pictures, especially since we're after the length in the back as you said and not the total length of the rails.
I have made a comparison in Autocad of a lot of the saddles. Of all the saddles you can find a side view and you know the length, so I just pasted a picture in autocad, scaled to get the right length. I lined up the back of all the saddles and so I could see how the rails compared to each other.
I use this saddle on all my bikes (road, gravel and MTB). They often are for sale at about 10 EUR: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005286260332.html
They have a version with carbon rails and it is very cheap. I have bought 2 but have yet to install them: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006400661842.html
Oh, and you can easily remove the branding on the plastic with some acetone
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I pulled the trigger, and bought a Chameleon one in size 56. Really excited about it. Going to build it up with 11 sp mechanical Ultegra, and hoping to fit 50/34 chainrings on there. It's going to be my do-it-all bike with a road and a gravel wheelset.
Unfortunately, it won't show up for another 2 months :( (EU preorder for June 30).
A few things:
1) The reason it has similar geo to the BXT and Nextie, is that all 3 are very heavily "inspired" by the Scott Addict Gravel. That's also why I'm hoping 50/34 will fit, since that fits on the Scott.
2) When it comes to the setback, what matters is that we can achieve our preferred saddle position relative to the BB. This in turn can be determined from just 2 factors: The seat tube angle and the setback relative to the line through the bottom bracket. The reason the setback looks big is that the seat tube is shifted forward relative to the BB as seen by the blue line.
i) My current bike has a STA of 73.5 instead of 73 on the Graro. That results in shifting the saddle back roughly 5mm at my saddle height, relative to my current bike.
ii) My current bike has a setback of maybe 5mm, (round seatpost centered on the BB). This means another net 15-5 mm = 10mm setback.
iii) However, the clamp that holds the saddle rails is also much smaller on the Graro, which gives a bit of leeway the other way (roughly 7mm by my estimation).
I've concluded that I can easily achieve my current saddle position, even without slamming the saddle all the way forward.
Will definitely post a lot of measurements related to tire clearance, chainring clearance etc when I receive the frame!
Great you did it! Actually I have the same plan with my future bike - to replace my gravel and road and just have one dropbar bike with two wheelsets in the garage. Do you already have an idea for your wheelsets? I was thinking about road rims with 32mm external and about 23-25mm internal to run 30mm upfront and 32mm in the rear. I just haven't found rims with 32mm outer. These are my current options:
- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006062147755.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006062147755.html)
- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006639888848.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006639888848.html)
Hubs: Goldix R180SL (super light - durability?)
As for the gravels my rim choice might be 36mm outer and 30mm internal: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006427795061.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006427795061.html)
Hubs: Goldix R240SL (super light - more durable??)
You guy are certainly correct with the saddle offset. My current Velobuild GF-001 has an STA of 72.5° plus setback seatpost, which is kinda stupid, since the geo was cloned from the OPEN U.P., but the OPEN has a straight seatpost. Anyways, My saddle is slammed all the way to the front. Okay, maybe 10mm are left. I'm using a Fabric Line which has really long rails, but I already have some ali 3D saddle which will not have as much room to play. I will have to do some more calculations. Do you guys have a recommendation for a good seating position calculator?
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For now, I'm going with the wheelsets I already have - DT Swiss G1800 alu gravel wheels and Fulcrum DB6 alu road wheels.
For road, I'll probably go 32mm GP5K STR front and back. For gravel I'll first see how big a tire I can fit and then pick a brand (would be nice to fit a 48 Thundero, but that's unlikely I think).
Wheels are definitely the next upgrade though, once I figure out what I want. I have my eye on the crazy Nextie 45AGX wheelset (inspired by the 3T Discus wheelset I think) - 40mm external, 29mm internal hooked rim and 45mm deep.
For what you want, Lightbicycle have 32 external / 25 internal rims in many different depths.
For the bike fit stuff, I have no idea. I just know that I don't hate my current saddle position. Should definitely get a fit some day though.
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Yes, I've seen these LB rims. As the huge Nextie Rims they are a bit on the expensive side. So I was looking for sth. more reasonable.
May I ask how tall you are? I'm undecided between 56 and 58. I'm 6.0ft (184/88cm).
Btw. They measured the internal fork with for me which is supposed to be 53mm. I didn't ask about the rear clearance. But since the frame has a dropped chainstay 48mm could fit (But with the nextie rims ... I'm not so sure ;D).
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Yes, I've seen these LB rims. As the huge Nextie Rims they are a bit on the expensive side. So I was looking for sth. more reasonable.
May I ask how tall you are? I'm undecided between 56 and 58. I'm 6.0ft (184/88cm).
Yeah, they are definitely not the cheapest rims. Maybe I should also consider others!
I'm 180cm and I was definitely struggling to choose between the 54 and 56. The 58 is huge though, do you need the extra toe clearance?
I did a lot of calculations and concluded that just like with the saddle position, I would have some room to play with in terms of stack and reach on 56, and I would most likely not have to worry about toe overlap.
Since the STA is the same for both (edit: 56 and 58 are the same, not 54 and 56), the saddle position should be irrelevant for this choice and you can focus on getting the stack and reach numbers you want, and the front center you need to avoid overlap.
Btw. They measured the internal fork with for me which is supposed to be 53mm. I didn't ask about the rear clearance. But since the frame has a dropped chainstay 48mm could fit (But with the nextie rims ... I'm not so sure ;D).
Nice, I tried to get them to do measurements with no luck. Yeah maybe the best option is to go for a nominally smaller tire with the really wide rim :D.
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The 58 is huge though, do you need the extra toe clearance?
No, my toes are luckily not that long. ;D I calculated that with >620mm of BB to front axle I should be on the save side. Size 56 is actually perfect regarding body position (apart from the seatpost). My next concern is that I would like to fit my full frame bag into the triangle which would need min 45cm of vertical space. Too bad that many frames are having lower top tubes now.
Nice, I tried to get them to do measurements with no luck. Yeah maybe the best option is to go for a nominally smaller tire with the really wide rim :D.
They didn't answer your question? I actually asked two different contacts, because the first answer got stuck in my spam folder. The first answer was 60mm in fact. But this sounded a bit unrealistic for a 45mm frame set.
Yes, I think with such a big inner width tires might blow up to the next tire with. The 44mm Tufo could increase it's width by 3mm already. But I would wait until the frame is in your hands to measure the real clearance.
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No, my toes are luckily not that long. ;D I calculated that with >620mm of BB to front axle I should be on the save side. Size 56 is actually perfect regarding body position (apart from the seatpost). My next concern is that I would like to fit my full frame bag into the triangle which would need min 45cm of vertical space. Too bad that many frames are having lower top tubes now.
I'd rather buy the right size bike and a new frame bag ;D
They didn't answer your question? I actually asked two different contacts, because the first answer got stuck in my spam folder. The first answer was 60mm in fact. But this sounded a bit unrealistic for a 45mm frame set.
Yes, I think with such a big inner width tires might blow up to the next tire with. The 44mm Tufo could increase it's width by 3mm already. But I would wait until the frame is in your hands to measure the real clearance.
Nope. I asked for seatstay, chainstay and fork clearance measurements and the reply was
"Hi XXX
Thanks for your inquiry .
GRAR0 need to buy on www.icancycling.com
Thanks . "
I don't think they really understood the question honestly. Wrt tires, yeah I'll wait and see.
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I've just placed an order for one of these frames, I've been dealing with Perry at Ican cycling whose been really helpful, his email is perry@icancycling.com
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Nice! What size/color?
If you have any information that hasn't already been discussed, feel free to share it.
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I went for the Pearl White.
I also asked Perry if they could customize the forks to remove the bolt holes on the forks which they will do but it adds 30 days to the delivery date which gives a lead time of 80 days.
Hopefully that means a delivery date of the end of July which works very well for me and gives me time to get it ready for cross and maybe a September gravel race.
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Nice, the Pearl White looks really good.
I asked the exact same question to Perry and he said no ::). In the dark green it's not a big deal so I'm not willing to wait another month for it anyway. The lighter colors look a lot nicer without the holes I think.
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They're going to fill in the bolt holes and the hole under the forks which should help come the cross season. Hopefully it wont take that much longer to do
Oz cycle have done a review of the frame on youtube
https://youtube.com/watch?v=alWjt9AqT0Q&si=O0iNAbGPOasfP_gP
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Looking at this frame in a 58cm and would build it up with a sram groupset. For a 1x, would a 46t chainring fit ? Sram does have their dub road wide crankset but don't know if that will be necessary.
UPDATE:
Ordered a 58 in celeste colorway
Asked some questions, got some answers from person named Perry:
-asked for fork with no holes, was no problem
-Max 1x chainring is 42t
-BB is the t47 85.5
-for 1x is there a fully closed cover for front derrailleur cable hole -> no