Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: slow_poke11 on October 29, 2022, 10:25:21 PM
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I'm looking at doing a bike build. Ideally 12 speed, mechanical shifting, hydraulic disc bike. Something strong and long-lasting. I'm 187cm tall and over 100kg, so I'm not looking for anything ultra-light (massive weight saving opportunities exist above the saddle ;)) I'm thinking about mainly using Chinese parts and I notice L-twoo are releasing a fully hydraulic (not cable actuated hydraulic) groupset.
Anyhow, I digress, My starting point is the frame and I've done heaps of reading and youtube video watching, but am still a bit stuck on what brand of frame to buy. From what I've read, I'd probably order it along the following lines:
If I'm wanting peace of mind, quality control, communication, warranty and service then:
Winspace
Yoeleo
Elves
...but I'd be paying a premium for the brand and not necessarily getting a better frame (except maybe Winspace?).
If I'm wanting an equivalent (or better) quality frame at a lower price without having to pay for a brand name, then one of the following:
Dengfu - R12
ICAN - A22
Velobuild - R-177
My biggest fear is buying something where there hasn't been any pride taken in the build which may mean defects, problems with the build, and lack of responsiveness if I there is a problem which I need to get resolved. Essentially, things like visible poor workmanship if I were to put an endoscope inside the frame. issues with carbon walls that might be too thin in places, rough finishing around the bottom bracket. disc-brake attachment points that don't line up properly, alignment issues in the wheel axle holes, things that might make internal routing of the cables nearly impossible.
From what I've read these 3 companies seem to have a very good reputation with people on this forum, so I will probably go with one of these. In short, this is a final due-diligence to ask if anyone thinks I should choose one over the other or whether there are greater risks with one versus the others? Any other companies I should consider? :)
Thanks!
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Carbonda is also pretty well regarded. There are some lengthy threads for their frames on here. They have an aero frame and an endurance frame on their website although I don't have experience with either. I do have one of their gravel frames (CFR707) and it's really well made. They are a bit pricier than some of the other options but there haven't been nearly as many reports of problems as with some of the others.
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Of those 3, Deng Fu have definitely had the fewest disasters.
But yeah, if Carbonda do something that suits you, I'd second them for quality ... though they are not without pitfalls - they painted my FM909 with the bearings in it, locking them in.
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- they painted my FM909 with the bearings in it, locking them in.
What?? That's crazy, did they offer you any compensation for the mistake?
Thinking about building up a 909 myself, how do you like it and what suspension are you running?
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What?? That's crazy, did they offer you any compensation for the mistake?
Thinking about building up a 909 myself, how do you like it and what suspension are you running?
They tried to claim it was how they normally did it and that they didn't think people would remove the bearings (despite selling me a replacement bearing and bolt kit with the frameset and regularly selling them to others). They said they'd take my advice into consideration for improving painting procedure in future. They were in full ass covering mode, probably because the finish I chose was so expensive (relative to most).
Not built yet, waiting on Acros headset and replacement seatpost clamp for dropper that customs kindly lost when they opened the box with my dropper. But it'll be 120mm Manitou R7 Pro and Mara rear shock. Trying to make it as downcountry as possible - geo screams it even if rear travel is a bit short.
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They tried to claim it was how they normally did it and that they didn't think people would remove the bearings (despite selling me a replacement bearing and bolt kit with the framesets and regularly selling them to others).
That's total BS. Anyone who knows anything about bikes knows that bearings can fail or that users may want to upgrade them.
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Thanks for the feedback. I've got a bit further with my decision-making process and have it down to this shortlist:
- Carbonda CFR 1056 - https://www.carbonda.com/road-frames/125.html (around USD $650 + $250 delivery)
- VB R-177 - http://www.velobuildmall.com/products/2020-vb-r-177-super-light-carbon-fiber-road-frame-disc-version-hidden-cables ($499 + $145 delivery)
- Dengfu R12 - http://m.dengfubikes.com/index.php?s=/roadframe.html (haven't replied to my enquiry)
I have to be honest and say that the VB R-177 probably comes out top at the moment in terms of cost, weight, and maybe even the fact that it's T1000 carbon.
Any other factors I should be considering?
My priorities are probably more towards an all-rounder rather than specifically aero or lightweight, and I've always seen the Specialized tarmac as one of the best in that space. I honestly don't mind a 200g weight gain if the bike is stiff in the right places and provides flex for comfort in others.
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The 1056 or R12 will be much better built. But you've also chosen 3 different bikes with different geo and tube profiles so you might want to think about that.
I highly doubt the 177 layup uses any T1000. And to call it T1000 as they do is misleading anyway, as even if it did, it'd probably be less than 10%. Chinese outfits (typically the low quality ones) use the T1000/1100 term interchangeably with high modulus / light weight. The 177 is relatively light weight. I'd be skeptical that VB or similar price point frames are using genuine Toray stuff anymore anyway (that's not to say Chinese equivalents are bad), given price rises.
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The 1056 or R12 will be much better built. But you've also chosen 3 different bikes with different geo and tube profiles so you might want to think about that.
I highly doubt the 177 layup uses any T1000. And to call it T1000 as they do is misleading anyway, as even if it did, it'd probably be less than 10%. Chinese outfits (typically the low quality ones) use the T1000/1100 term interchangeably with high modulus / light weight. The 177 is relatively light weight. I'd be skeptical that VB or similar price point frames are using genuine Toray stuff anymore anyway (that's not to say Chinese equivalents are bad), given price rises.
Can guarantee that Velobuild is not using any T1000 carbon. Their frames are amongst the heaviest ones coming out of china!
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my 5 cents: 177 or GF002.
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The 1056 or R12 will be much better built. But you've also chosen 3 different bikes with different geo and tube profiles so you might want to think about that.
Thanks. Yes, admittedly, I'm not at all well versed on geometry and I did notice that the tubes seemed more geared towards weight savings in some and aero in others.
I currently ride a 2011 S-works SL3 with R7000 105 components. Rim brake, obviously. It's on its way out and I'm not that happy about what you get for your money from the LBS these days, so want to build up my own bike. Not just for the cost savings, but also for the learning experience. I thought I'd go with some frames that were similar to the SL7 but obviously I've missed the mark. I'm obviously many years older now, and I'm wondering if my reach has shortened a bit. I'm also heavy enough that the weight savings from a very lightweight frame will be wasted on me. I'd rather go with a frame that is a bit heavier but well made and remains stiffer for longer. I don't race apart from a couple of 160km sportive's per year, so happy to go with a more endurance type bike.
I know this is a very open-ended and question, but if you do have any suggestions about a frame that might be a good match, let me know. Thanks.
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Thanks. Yes, admittedly, I'm not at all well versed on geometry and I did notice that the tubes seemed more geared towards weight savings in some and aero in others.
I currently ride a 2011 S-works SL3 with R7000 105 components. Rim brake, obviously. It's on its way out and I'm not that happy about what you get for your money from the LBS these days, so want to build up my own bike. Not just for the cost savings, but also for the learning experience. I thought I'd go with some frames that were similar to the SL7 but obviously I've missed the mark. I'm obviously many years older now, and I'm wondering if my reach has shortened a bit. I'm also heavy enough that the weight savings from a very lightweight frame will be wasted on me. I'd rather go with a frame that is a bit heavier but well made and remains stiffer for longer. I don't race apart from a couple of 160km sportive's per year, so happy to go with a more endurance type bike.
I know this is a very open-ended and question, but if you do have any suggestions about a frame that might be a good match, let me know. Thanks.
Dengfu fm098?
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Can guarantee that Velobuild is not using any T1000 carbon. Their frames are amongst the heaviest ones coming out of china!
We can guarantee we use T1000 - 1K carbon for our VB-R-177 and VB-R-218 frames ;)
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We can guarantee we use T1000 - 1K carbon for our VB-R-177 and VB-R-218 frames ;)
Interesting. Wasn't it prohibited before, and only available for the Chinese army?
What percentage would you evaluate to be T1000 and what zones in the frame get it?
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Interesting. Wasn't it prohibited before, and only available for the Chinese army?
What percentage would you evaluate to be T1000 and what zones in the frame get it?
just adding my two-cents worth, as I'd read this in the past:
"According to the Japan Carbon Fiber Manufacturers Association classification T1000 is actually at the low end of the intermediate modulus fibre range and M55J is at the very high end of the high modulus range."
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=126139#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Japan%20Carbon,of%20the%20high%20modulus%20range.
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Thanks. Yes, admittedly, I'm not at all well versed on geometry and I did notice that the tubes seemed more geared towards weight savings in some and aero in others.
I currently ride a 2011 S-works SL3 with R7000 105 components. Rim brake, obviously. It's on its way out and I'm not that happy about what you get for your money from the LBS these days, so want to build up my own bike. Not just for the cost savings, but also for the learning experience. I thought I'd go with some frames that were similar to the SL7 but obviously I've missed the mark. I'm obviously many years older now, and I'm wondering if my reach has shortened a bit. I'm also heavy enough that the weight savings from a very lightweight frame will be wasted on me. I'd rather go with a frame that is a bit heavier but well made and remains stiffer for longer. I don't race apart from a couple of 160km sportive's per year, so happy to go with a more endurance type bike.
I know this is a very open-ended and question, but if you do have any suggestions about a frame that might be a good match, let me know. Thanks.
Will depend on where you live, but if you're happy with rim brakes, look at branded second hand bikes, you will get the most value out of those. If it comes with shitty wheels, get 60mm carbon ones, you can get a set shipped to you for c.600 usd, or also buy that second hand. Pay attention to the brake track though. Giant TCR, cannondale supersix, there are so many of those for sale and they're so good, you can't go wrong.
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We can guarantee we use T1000 - 1K carbon for our VB-R-177 and VB-R-218 frames ;)
Great example of hearing from both parties on an issue :) 8)
..Okay bye :-X
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I have pulled plug, or sent 880$ for a frame, one that rarely fits me being 194cm and more.
798gr in XXL, I would say an upgraded version of Focus Max Izalco most probably from the same factory, KSC Kangsheng.
My was delivered through one of the 3 in the subject, with a damaged brake bridge with bad gluing try.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yxn08Qy/Zp-TM6e-C04-AFJUS0m.png)
1st suggestion is to me arrange a repair.
I work in international very mixed company,
but this, sending damaged frame with terrible gluing repair attempt and everything else is unexpected.
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We can guarantee we use T1000 - 1K carbon for our VB-R-177 and VB-R-218 frames ;)
Toray T1000 doesn't come in 1K and only comes in 12K TOW. It's reassuring you can guarantee you use something that doesn't exist. The generic stuff that apes Toray SKUs tends to stick to similar naming conventions and corresponding TOW and other specs too ... this is another classic with AliExpress sellers, conflating Toray Txxx SKU names with TOW values and advertising / marketing as such.
So what exactly are you saying you use?
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Will depend on where you live, but if you're happy with rim brakes, look at branded second hand bikes, you will get the most value out of those.
Thanks Serge,
For some context, I live on Waiheke Island in Auckland, NZ. Lots of short, steep hills and rough chip-seal roads. An ideal setup is tubeless, 28/32mm tyres and disc brakes. A gravel bike would be good here but not so good for races and sportives, which is what I train for. I'm currently 1.87m and 100kg, so disc brakes would be handy, particularly on wet days.
I hear you on buying a second hand bike. It is something I have considered. My preferred action is going to be to build up a new disc brake bike for the reasons stated above, and put my existing rim-brake bike will on the trainer. I'm really interested in the experience of building the bike and think I'd really enjoy it.
Also, just putting this out there as one of my considerations: While a steel bike gets to a certain point and doesn't fatigue anymore, my understanding is that carbon frames continue to fatigue as normal/abnormal load is applied over time, effectively leading to more give between the carbon layers and developing more flex. Visually, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference but internally, the best days of the frame might be over. Now, a lot of the people that emphasize this are also people that are trying to sell you a new bike, so I'm not saying this is necessarily as big an issue as some people claim.
Equally, going for a branded frame does not guarantee quality. I previously watched this Hambini video trashing the quality of a BMC time machine frame: youtube.com/watch?v=UzjeCuA4hGc
Lastly, and please don't take this the wrong way as your comment is helpful; there is a little bit of irony about the fact that I'm on a forum about Chinese carbon frames and I'm being advised to get a second hand established brand frame :).
I am currently leaning towards the Dengfu R12 or the VB R-177. Pricing currently seems to come out at $760 + free shipping for the R12 and $500 + $150 shipping ($650 total) for the R-177. Both would seem to have good tyre clearance, and yes, the geometry is more towards the racier side than endurance. (Sorry, I'm just not ready to admit I'm no longer a racing bike rider). The difference at the moment is that the claimed weight for frame+fork for the Velobuild is nearly 200g lighter than the R12 while also claiming a higher carbon modulus.
I'm told earlier in this thread that Dengfu is better quality, but if I look on their website, there are two very bad reviews that mention flex: https://www.dengfubike.com/collections/carbon-bike-frame/products/r12-disc-frame (I mean kudos to Denfu for not removing those reviews from their site but they are still a concern....). On paper, Velobuild looks like the way to go, and to be offering a stiffer, lighter frame, but then there are some comments on this thread challenging their claims, and there could equally be similar reviews that have been removed.
This clearly seems to be an area where there is a certain amount of risk (which I'm prepared to take on) and differences of opinion, but also one where you can get a real sense of achievement and learn a lot along the way. For me it's about the journey as well as the bike. If I buy a dud, so be it. What do I do about it and what do I learn from it? I'd still like to minimise my chances of buying a dud though.
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My only main issue with the 177 was the seat post slipping which has so far been resolved. A "small piece of aluminum from a can of soda between the seatpost and the frame" was the popular solution.
Useful thread here:
https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3705.msg36588.html#msg36588
Secondly since the 177 has a lower stack than usual (for most people) you can consider ordering extra spacers just in case.
Watch out for the seatpost setback also with relative to toptube length and reach.
For your context i.e; "short, steep hills", the 177 should do the job.
It is basically my long + hilly day on the saddle frame.
I do not recommend it for fast pace riding on the flats though.
From my own 177 experience, it requires more effort on the flats and it is not very stable at constant speeds of 40km/h and above. It does not handle fast cornering well like in crit racing.
All the best with your frameset research.
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My preferred action is going to be to build up a new disc brake bike for the reasons stated above
I read "Rim brake, obviously" in your previous post and thought you wanted rim brakes on your next bike :)
Between the Dengfu and 177, i'd go with the 177.
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I read "Rim brake, obviously" in your previous post and thought you wanted rim brakes on your next bike :)
Between the Dengfu and 177, i'd go with the 177.
Thanks. No. "rim brake, obviously" is my current 2011 frame. It's obviously rim, because there were no disc brakes on road bikes in 2011.
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Secondly since the 177 has a lower stack than usual (for most people) you can consider ordering extra spacers just in case.
Watch out for the seatpost setback also with relative to toptube length and reach.
Good call. Thanks.
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Sorry. Me again.
So, given the comments about low stack, slipping seatpost and stability round corners of the VB-R-177, I'm now considering the VB-R-168 It seems to be an SL7 copy.
Has anyone been riding this frame for an extended period now and have feedback how it rides and whether any issues have developed?
Also, VB don't state a weight (that I've noticed). Anyone built up a 58cm frame and know what their frame weighed?
Any recommendations on wheels? A lot of people seem to be going with Elite after recommendations from Trace Velo. Looking for carbon, tubeless ready, 40mm depth rims, disc brake.
Thanks
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...Any recommendations on wheels? A lot of people seem to be going with Elite after recommendations from Trace Velo. Looking for carbon, tubeless ready, 40mm depth rims, disc brake.
These are the one I ride https://www.lightbicycle.com/700C-road-bicycle-rims-32mm-wide-40mm-deep-symmetric-clincher-road-disc-brake-available.html
The hookless version with 28mm tires, set at 3.5 bars for my 67kg
If the frames has 32mm tire clearance, these rims provide a very comfy ride even on Belgian cobbles.
Extreme grip when descending fast.
And I don't feel any aero penalty riding with my fast group rides.
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Has anyone been riding this frame for an extended period now and have feedback how it rides and whether any issues have developed?
Also, VB don't state a weight (that I've noticed). Anyone built up a 58cm frame and know what their frame weighed?
Thanks
I've been riding my VB-R-168 for just over 4,000 km and so far it's been great. No issues building it and it's been solid since. Started to hear some creaking a few months ago and was beginning to think it could be the frame, but it looks like it could be my headset bearings (creek has gone away in the last few weeks anyway).
Weight for a large should be around 1120g for the frame and [/size]400g for the fork based on what I was told last when I asked VB.
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T55J = High tensile modulus, but low tensile strength.
I am not a carbon-fibre expert, but my understanding is that when a bike frame is marketed as T1000, it only means that some T1000 is used in the frame, not that it is 100% T1000.
I've heard from a carbon frame manufacturer that any given carbon frame is going to use a combination of different types of carbon fibre, in different weaves (and UD) in different layups, because they will lend different different physical properties to the finished frame.
I could be way off on this, but its not always a case of "more expensive is better"
Of course, as I mentioned, not an expert - feel free to correct if I am off-base on this one.
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I've heard from a carbon frame manufacturer that any given carbon frame is going to use a combination of different types of carbon fibre, in different weaves (and UD) in different layups, because they will lend different different physical properties to the finished frame.
This is what I've read too. The carbon layup needs to get the right balance of stiffness, weight and comfort, which means you don't want the same properties in all parts of the frame. E.g the top tube doesn't take most of the stress, so using expensive carbon there is a waste. Also the resin, which gives the bike its stiffness, is very important too. Thicker resin means the carbon fibres are more separated, or conversely carbon layers touch each other with no resin in between. Thinner resins get between the fibres allowing them to be closer together and provide the frame with more strength for less weight and allow for better ride quality: https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/1278/string-and-glue-a-closer-look-at-resin
I'd love to know how the open mould frames compare to branded frames from this perspective, and also, how the frames from different open mould manufacturers compare to each other. I'm not sure how one could make that assessment beyond what you can see on the surfaces and how the ride feels. It would be good if there was more transparency in this area.
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I have pulled plug, or sent 880$ for a frame, one that rarely fits me being 194cm and more.
798gr in XXL, I would say an upgraded version of Focus Max Izalco most probably from the same factory, KSC Kangsheng.
My was delivered through one of the 3 in the subject, with a damaged brake bridge with bad gluing try.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yxn08Qy/Zp-TM6e-C04-AFJUS0m.png)
1st suggestion is to me arrange a repair.
I work in international very mixed company,
but this, sending damaged frame with terrible gluing repair attempt and everything else is unexpected.
So, what happend later.
amount of lies from ICAN is just terrible.
it is the inside of the brake bridge, glue traces and still they ask me to send photos of the box, thats like new.
Then they conclude that damage is transport damage.
170$ is what they offer for refund because,
"This is caused by the collision during the transportation of the shipping company.
Before we ship the frame, we will carefully check the frame is intact before sending the package.
Could you please take the detached part and frame to a bike shop to fix (glue it up)? This part can be used normally with glue, how much is the repair cost? We will pay for the repair, can you accept?"
It was all prepared, photos I got before send are so low resolution.
So all in all, a terrible experience with ICAN.
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Haha wow! I mean sure, it can easily be repaired by a CARBON WORKSHOP not a bikeshop they will tell you to scrap the frame.
But that is a horrible solution from ICAN and also horrible construction. Should be solid carbon or an alloy insert bonded in carbon, not constructed with glue... You simply dont construct critical parts with glue.
Sorry you have to go through this! Also kinda sad the frame is black, would be interesting what else is hiding behind the paint.
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not completely true, in a sense of form.
there in the middle is a alu or steel insert to which you attach caliper.
on my Izalco Max that part does not protrude that much at all, it is flat 3-4mm from the insert.
This is more of an aero gimmick, but how can I be sure that I am right.
I did carbon repair btw, seat stay on my Izalco started to split, and 2 y later all is good.
Anyone knows where else can I get, a rim frame with 60ish top tube and 42ish cm reach
and behind the paint.
execution is a dream, made to be light so very very thin finish and somewhere also you see strings
KSC obviously is excellent company.
take a look at headtube
Cheers,
Marin
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So, what happend later.
amount of lies from ICAN is just terrible.
it is the inside of the brake bridge, glue traces and still they ask me to send photos of the box, thats like new.
Then they conclude that damage is transport damage.
170$ is what they offer for refund because,
"This is caused by the collision during the transportation of the shipping company.
Before we ship the frame, we will carefully check the frame is intact before sending the package.
Could you please take the detached part and frame to a bike shop to fix (glue it up)? This part can be used normally with glue, how much is the repair cost? We will pay for the repair, can you accept?"
It was all prepared, photos I got before send are so low resolution.
So all in all, a terrible experience with ICAN.
Sorry to hear that. Yes, I was considering an ICAN A9 as it appeared to be UCI approved and was more expensive than some other brands which I thought might translate into better quality: https://icancycling.com/collections/road-bike-frame/products/disc-road-bike-frame-a9
They might still be very good frames, but obviously this is a bad experience. If you could see evidence of gluing and zero sign on the box that this happened during transport, then their response is very disappointing on a number of levels.
One thing that made me hesitate with ICAN was that when I checked the latest UCI list of approved framesets I couldn't find it at all when searching for "ICAN", "Triaero", "TRIA" or "A9": https://assets.ctfassets.net/761l7gh5x5an/7jA9krKzzy3lRXPzlm4uyn/b45f45a06a948c164ab6820f3798a524/Liste_des_Mod__les_homologu__s_de_kits_cadre__-_List_of_Approved_Models_of_framesets.pdf
I'm going to interpret this favourably and say it might still be possible that it's just been approved and will be in the next list or it's somehow registered as something else, or I should be looking somewhere else. If so, I sincerely apologise for my misunderstanding. However, if that's not the case, then there's a much less favourable interpretations to this claim.
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"This is caused by the collision during the transportation of the shipping company.
Before we ship the frame, we will carefully check the frame is intact before sending the package."
I am surprised by this because I can't imagine that particular part of the frame being exposed/damaged during the transport even if it is across continents - unless the frame did NOT come wrapped inside a big box and was just sent with cushion wrapped around it ...without the box.
What I am saying is I could understand if some extreme corner of the frame was damaged like RD dropout or top of the headtube but brake bridge? I call BS. To me it was done 100% on their end before the thing even got wrapped.
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Ofcourse, you can imagine trying to fit brake nut there and it is short, take the frame btw 800gr by the seat tube and carry in the room, my hand over that bridge and 2 small pieces in my hand.
now, what I did wrong and how, then I look, and I have a desk loupe large one, i see gluing and so on. That feeling.
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Velobuild have 50$ discount VBBF2022 is code.
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Velobuild have 50$ discount VBBF2022 is code.
Is this an ad ? ;D
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Hehe...no...just say'in. :D ;)
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Ofcourse, you can imagine trying to fit brake nut there and it is short, take the frame btw 800gr by the seat tube and carry in the room, my hand over that bridge and 2 small pieces in my hand.
now, what I did wrong and how, then I look, and I have a desk loupe large one, i see gluing and so on. That feeling.
Long time, i guess due to the circumstances but
I would buy one more if possible, drives like a charm, 950m climb and then 70.4km/h down like on rails.