Advice on where to buy a frame - dengfu/ican/velobuild ?

[slow_poke11]

I'm looking at doing a bike build. Ideally 12 speed, mechanical shifting, hydraulic disc bike.  Something strong and long-lasting. I'm 187cm tall and over 100kg, so I'm not looking for anything ultra-light (massive weight saving opportunities exist above the saddle  )  I'm thinking about mainly using Chinese parts and I notice L-twoo are releasing a fully hydraulic (not cable actuated hydraulic) groupset. 

Anyhow, I digress, My starting point is the frame and I've done heaps of reading and youtube video watching, but am still a bit stuck on what brand of frame to buy. From what I've read, I'd probably order it along the following lines:

If I'm wanting peace of mind, quality control, communication, warranty and service then:

Winspace
Yoeleo
Elves

...but I'd be paying a premium for the brand and not necessarily getting a better frame (except maybe Winspace?).

If I'm wanting an equivalent (or better) quality frame at a lower price without having to pay for a brand name, then one of the following:

Dengfu - R12
ICAN - A22
Velobuild - R-177

My biggest fear is buying something where there hasn't been any pride taken in the build which may mean defects, problems with the build, and lack of responsiveness if I there is a problem which I need to get resolved.  Essentially, things like visible poor workmanship if I were to put an endoscope inside the frame. issues with carbon walls that might be too thin in places, rough finishing around the bottom bracket. disc-brake attachment points that don't line up properly, alignment issues in the wheel axle holes, things that might make internal routing of the cables nearly impossible.

From what I've read these 3 companies seem to have a very good reputation with people on this forum, so I will probably go with one of these. In short, this is a final due-diligence to ask if anyone thinks I should choose one over the other or whether there are greater risks with one versus the others? Any other companies I should consider? 

Thanks!

[jannmayer]

Carbonda is also pretty well regarded. There are some lengthy threads for their frames on here. They have an aero frame and an endurance frame on their website although I don't have experience with either. I do have one of their gravel frames (CFR707) and it's really well made. They are a bit pricier than some of the other options but there haven't been nearly as many reports of problems as with some of the others.

[RDY]

Of those 3, Deng Fu have definitely had the fewest disasters.

But yeah, if Carbonda do something that suits you, I'd second them for quality ... though they are not without pitfalls - they painted my FM909 with the bearings in it, locking them in.

[jungian]

- they painted my FM909 with the bearings in it, locking them in.

What?? That's crazy, did they offer you any compensation for the mistake?

Thinking about building up a 909 myself, how do you like it and what suspension are you running?

[RDY]

What?? That's crazy, did they offer you any compensation for the mistake?

Thinking about building up a 909 myself, how do you like it and what suspension are you running?

They tried to claim it was how they normally did it and that they didn't think people would remove the bearings (despite selling me a replacement bearing and bolt kit with the frameset and regularly selling them to others). They said they'd take my advice into consideration for improving painting procedure in future.  They were in full ass covering mode, probably because the finish I chose was so expensive (relative to most).

Not built yet, waiting on Acros headset and replacement seatpost clamp for dropper that customs kindly lost when they opened the box with my dropper.  But it'll be 120mm Manitou R7 Pro and Mara rear shock.  Trying to make it as downcountry as possible - geo screams it even if rear travel is a bit short.

[slow_poke11]

They tried to claim it was how they normally did it and that they didn't think people would remove the bearings (despite selling me a replacement bearing and bolt kit with the framesets and regularly selling them to others).

That's total BS. Anyone who knows anything about bikes knows that bearings can fail or that users may want to upgrade them.

[slow_poke11]

Thanks for the feedback.  I've got a bit further with my decision-making process and have it down to this shortlist:

• Carbonda CFR 1056 - https://www.carbonda.com/road-frames/125.html (around USD $650 + $250 delivery)
• VB R-177 - http://www.velobuildmall.com/products/2020-vb-r-177-super-light-carbon-fiber-road-frame-disc-version-hidden-cables ($499 + $145 delivery)
• Dengfu R12 - http://m.dengfubikes.com/index.php?s=/roadframe.html (haven't replied to my enquiry)

I have to be honest and say that the VB R-177 probably comes out top at the moment in terms of cost, weight, and maybe even the fact that it's T1000 carbon. 

Any other factors I should be considering? 

My priorities are probably more towards an all-rounder rather than specifically aero or lightweight, and I've always seen the Specialized tarmac as one of the best in that space. I honestly don't mind a 200g weight gain if the bike is stiff in the right places and provides flex for comfort in others.

[RDY]

The 1056 or R12 will be much better built.  But you've also chosen 3 different bikes with different geo and tube profiles so you might want to think about that.

I highly doubt the 177 layup uses any T1000.  And to call it T1000 as they do is misleading anyway, as even if it did, it'd probably be less than 10%.  Chinese outfits (typically the low quality ones) use the T1000/1100 term interchangeably with high modulus / light weight.  The 177 is relatively light weight.   I'd be skeptical that VB or similar price point frames are using genuine Toray stuff anymore anyway (that's not to say Chinese equivalents are bad), given price rises.

[eucalyptus]

The 1056 or R12 will be much better built.  But you've also chosen 3 different bikes with different geo and tube profiles so you might want to think about that.

I highly doubt the 177 layup uses any T1000.  And to call it T1000 as they do is misleading anyway, as even if it did, it'd probably be less than 10%.  Chinese outfits (typically the low quality ones) use the T1000/1100 term interchangeably with high modulus / light weight.  The 177 is relatively light weight.   I'd be skeptical that VB or similar price point frames are using genuine Toray stuff anymore anyway (that's not to say Chinese equivalents are bad), given price rises.

Can guarantee that Velobuild is not using any T1000 carbon. Their frames are amongst the heaviest ones coming out of china!

[Serge_K]

my 5 cents: 177 or GF002.

[slow_poke11]

The 1056 or R12 will be much better built.  But you've also chosen 3 different bikes with different geo and tube profiles so you might want to think about that.

Thanks. Yes, admittedly, I'm not at all well versed on geometry and I did notice that the tubes seemed more geared towards weight savings in some and aero in others. 

I currently ride a 2011 S-works SL3 with R7000 105 components. Rim brake, obviously. It's on its way out and I'm not that happy about what you get for your money from the LBS these days, so want to build up my own bike. Not just for the cost savings, but also for the learning experience.  I thought I'd go with some frames that were similar to the SL7 but obviously I've missed the mark. I'm obviously many years older now, and I'm wondering if my reach has shortened a bit.  I'm also heavy enough that the weight savings from a very lightweight frame will be wasted on me. I'd rather go with a frame that is a bit heavier but well made and remains stiffer for longer.  I don't race apart from a couple of 160km sportive's per year, so happy to go with a more endurance type bike.

I know this is a very open-ended and question, but if you do have any suggestions about a frame that might be a good match, let me know. Thanks.

[Nickk2000]

Thanks. Yes, admittedly, I'm not at all well versed on geometry and I did notice that the tubes seemed more geared towards weight savings in some and aero in others. 

I currently ride a 2011 S-works SL3 with R7000 105 components. Rim brake, obviously. It's on its way out and I'm not that happy about what you get for your money from the LBS these days, so want to build up my own bike. Not just for the cost savings, but also for the learning experience.  I thought I'd go with some frames that were similar to the SL7 but obviously I've missed the mark. I'm obviously many years older now, and I'm wondering if my reach has shortened a bit.  I'm also heavy enough that the weight savings from a very lightweight frame will be wasted on me. I'd rather go with a frame that is a bit heavier but well made and remains stiffer for longer.  I don't race apart from a couple of 160km sportive's per year, so happy to go with a more endurance type bike.

I know this is a very open-ended and question, but if you do have any suggestions about a frame that might be a good match, let me know. Thanks.

Dengfu fm098?

[VeloBuild.Bikes]

Can guarantee that Velobuild is not using any T1000 carbon. Their frames are amongst the heaviest ones coming out of china!

We can guarantee we use T1000 - 1K carbon for our VB-R-177 and VB-R-218 frames 

[carbonazza]

We can guarantee we use T1000 - 1K carbon for our VB-R-177 and VB-R-218 frames 

Interesting. Wasn't it prohibited before, and only available for the Chinese army?
What percentage would you evaluate to be T1000 and what zones in the frame get it?

[slow_poke11]

Interesting. Wasn't it prohibited before, and only available for the Chinese army?
What percentage would you evaluate to be T1000 and what zones in the frame get it?

just adding my two-cents worth, as I'd read this in the past:

"According to the Japan Carbon Fiber Manufacturers Association classification T1000 is actually at the low end of the intermediate modulus fibre range and M55J is at the very high end of the high modulus range."

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=126139#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Japan%20Carbon,of%20the%20high%20modulus%20range.
"