Forum name?

[hazzer19]

I'm new to the forum and have really enjoyed learning from everyone and seeing the builds that get posted. Something that stood out to me right away when I found it was the name. By now I've come accustomed to it and seems a bit more normal, something I'm not comfortable with. I realize it was more than likely not intended to be offensive to people of Asian/Chinese background and everyone that I've come across has been really respectful, but I wonder if it's time to change the name to something else?

[cst_jpr]

Is Chinatown offensive?
Although I don't really know what "Chiner" is supposed to mean in this context though..

[carbonazza]

Is Chinatown offensive?
Although I don't really know what "Chiner" is supposed to mean in this context though..

It comes from 29er I think.

[Flying Trunk Monkey]

You seem to somehow insinuate that you are offended by the name but you didn't bother to explain why you are offended. My guess is that you don't know why you are offended. Hell, as a new member you didn't even have the courtesy to ask about the origins of the name. Instead, you chose to be triggered and suggest that something needs to change ...based on what? ...why?

I agree, changes are likely in order but you would likely be better served by looking inward. Of course if that is not acceptable to you then you are free to use this forum's resources as much or as little as you wish. You are also free to start and fund a similar forum with whatever name you prefer and whatever content you makes you feel comfortable.

[hazzer19]

It comes from 29er I think.

Ah ok I can see that

[hazzer19]

You seem to somehow insinuate that you are offended by the name but you didn't bother to explain why you are offended. My guess is that you don't know why you are offended. Hell, as a new member you didn't even have the courtesy to ask about the origins of the name. Instead, you chose to be triggered and suggest that something needs to change ...based on what? ...why?

I agree, changes are likely in order but you would likely be better served by looking inward. Of course if that is not acceptable to you then you are free to use this forum's resources as much or as little as you wish. You are also free to start and fund a similar forum with whatever name you prefer and whatever content you makes you feel comfortable.

You're right in that I couldn't quite put my finger on it. What I meant to do is initiate the conversation (if it hadn't already happened before, I did search). What I didn't mean to do is point the finger or pretend I know better so apologies if it was taken this way. Going back to the name, I think it's the close resemblance to the racist term used for African Americans that get's my antenna's up. When I ran the name by an Asian friend his reaction was a yes he finds it blatantly racist. Yes that is a sample size of 1 but I just wanted to get a sense of how far off or not I was. I didn't know the association with 29er if that is part of the origin of the name which as I said makes sense, but without knowing and being that perception is often reality, it could come across the wrong way.

Again, just looking to have a conversation without making any judgements. I feel the response was also triggered which is why I want to re-iterate my intent and keep the conversation going if it is possible.

[hazzer19]

Is Chinatown offensive?
Although I don't really know what "Chiner" is supposed to mean in this context though..

I don't think so to the first question as it seems to be commonly used term cities around the world adopt when referring to such areas?

My thoughts on the second question are above.

[tripleDot]

For what it's worth, I live in South-East Asia and of Chinese descend. I was never offended by the name ChinerTown. And having been a member in this forum for several years now, I've seen a number of Chinese (both cyclists/enthusiasts and vendors/suppliers) joining this group but it is only now that I see someone considered the forum name as offensive for being racists.

Is this a product of the American woke generation of over complicating things and finding faults in pretty much everything? If so, we don't really need those BS here.

[hazzer19]

For what it's worth, I live in South-East Asia and of Chinese descend. I was never offended by the name ChinerTown. And having been a member in this forum for several years now, I've seen a number of Chinese (both cyclists/enthusiasts and vendors/suppliers) joining this group but it is only now that I see someone considered the forum name as offensive for being racists.

Is this a product of the American woke generation of over complicating things and finding faults in pretty much everything? If so, we don't really need those BS here.

Thanks for your feedback. As mentioned before I came from a place of asking and not accusing. It seems like having these types of conversations online, which in many cases is needed as we don't question enough (but I agree there are limits), seem to not be welcome as two of the responses so far have been basically you're wrong get out of here. What in itself does that say about those responding like this? I'm not sure. It appears I offended some while asking if something is offensive, which is in itself ironic haha.

[adriaanm]

FWIW, I thought your question is valid and was formulated thoughtfully and respectfully. We should at least be able to talk about these things, no?

[hazzer19]

FWIW, I thought your question is valid and was formulated thoughtfully and respectfully. We should at least be able to talk about these things, no?

Appreciate that thanks! And yes I agree for sure. I did not mean to come across as casting judgement on anyone that has been part of the forum to date or the people who started it. IMO one of the biggest barriers to progress in any respect is the inability to see each other as fellow human beings trying to do our best and knowing that we can always do better. Without casting judgement and writing each other off we stand a better chance of moving forward than by shaming or not trying to understand where each other is coming from.

[Sitar_Ned]

Huh. Well, I have to be honest, I did not see that coming at all. It never once occurred to me that someone could potentially be offended by the forum's name.

First of all, I want to say that as adriaanm said, we can certainly talk about these things and ask these questions if it is on the minds of the community, and there's only one person that can address this and that would be me, so I'll try my best to communicate fully, clearly, and honestly.

I came up with the name "Chinertown" myself while researching my first chiner build. Users on other forums had already coined the term "chiner" as a play on words combining 29er bikes and Chinese carbon bikes. I just took it one step further and combined "chiner" with "Chinatown". There was never any negative racial element to it whatsoever. In fact, I think if you look at the functionality of the forum then it would be hard to argue otherwise. The forum facilitates commerce with China and other Asian countries. It directly benefits Asian entrepreneurs. I realize that could be separated out from the meaning of the name, but I do think it's something to factor into the equation.

I'll also say that in regards to the responses that were interpreted as "you're wrong, get out of here" that I don't really think they mean for you specifically to get out of here and those very same users would likely help you out in any way that they could if you asked. I can empathize with where they are coming from just as I can empathize with where you are coming from. It just seems like everything gets so politicized these days and getting online and being a part of a community that you share like interests with can be an escape from that. So when it creeps in people may have a tendency to want to push it out. That said, we should definitely be able to talk about these things.

I try to keep a very "libertarian" approach to the forum and never want anyone here to feel as though the conversation is being censored, controlled, or directed in ways suited to the ideals or goals of one or a group of individuals. I've been a member of forums that I really enjoyed that went south for those reasons and it's always such a bummer when that happens. If you notice, you can edit your posts for an indefinite amount of time. If you want to come back 5 years later and either delete or edit your posts, you're free to do so. Most forums don't allow that as it leaves room for spam and it's also not good for Google rankings. Say someone starts a thread and makes a long post with the right keywords and that topic starts showing up in Google and bringing traffic to the forum.. and that person decides to come back a year later and edit the post and possibly removes the specific keywords. Well, that would likely mean that post would lose its spot in the Google rankings, and forum growth would take a small hit. We leave editing control to you so that each community member can keep control of their own words and never cedes it fully to the forum. I say that to illustrate that it's important to me that users feel comfortable in saying and discussing whatever they choose so long as (like it says in the very description of this board) it isn't derogatory or offensive. You were neither, and you were thoughtful and respectful, so thanks for that, and please do feel free to discuss what you think is important, but also understand that others are free to tell you if they don't like it. It goes both ways.

Lastly, and I say this with respect, but the name will absolutely not be changed. Not only would that be a technical nightmare (this is a 7-year-old .com domain name and that has value in various ways) but it would also be against community ideals IMO. Just as you are free to do and say as you wish so long as you are respectful and have good intent... so am I. I know for a fact there are no negative racial implications to the forum name whatsoever and therefore it would be wrong to change it based on others' incorrect interpretations.

Now.. I'll be honest, if someone does find it offensive... that does bother me and kinda hurts my feelings a bit as I would never want to offend people in that way. I love people, I love the internet, and I love online communities, and I'm also somewhat of a people pleaser so I really hope that if anyone has that initial first impression, that they will keep an open mind and judge the forum, myself, and the community for their actions.

I hope that sheds some light on things for you or anyone else that may question this. If you are going to be part of an online community, I think you have every right to question the integrity of those involved. I hope you'll stick around and please feel free to hit me up if you need anything.

Cheers,
Sitar_Ned

[jstrawks]

Thanks for taking the time to explain things, Ned.

My only concern about the name (the way a certain well-known personage pronounces "China") was dispelled as soon as I became aware of when how long ago forum was founded.

[GilardiRT]

I think people should stop to feel offended by words, words are just words, it's the meaning thats important.
And the meaning of the name of a bicycle group can be misunderstood just by the reader.
I hope I could explain myself somehow, but that's not my first language

[hazzer19]

Huh. Well, I have to be honest, I did not see that coming at all. It never once occurred to me that someone could potentially be offended by the forum's name.

First of all, I want to say that as adriaanm said, we can certainly talk about these things and ask these questions if it is on the minds of the community, and there's only one person that can address this and that would be me, so I'll try my best to communicate fully, clearly, and honestly.

I came up with the name "Chinertown" myself while researching my first chiner build. Users on other forums had already coined the term "chiner" as a play on words combining 29er bikes and Chinese carbon bikes. I just took it one step further and combined "chiner" with "Chinatown". There was never any negative racial element to it whatsoever. In fact, I think if you look at the functionality of the forum then it would be hard to argue otherwise. The forum facilitates commerce with China and other Asian countries. It directly benefits Asian entrepreneurs. I realize that could be separated out from the meaning of the name, but I do think it's something to factor into the equation.

I'll also say that in regards to the responses that were interpreted as "you're wrong, get out of here" that I don't really think they mean for you specifically to get out of here and those very same users would likely help you out in any way that they could if you asked. I can empathize with where they are coming from just as I can empathize with where you are coming from. It just seems like everything gets so politicized these days and getting online and being a part of a community that you share like interests with can be an escape from that. So when it creeps in people may have a tendency to want to push it out. That said, we should definitely be able to talk about these things.

I try to keep a very "libertarian" approach to the forum and never want anyone here to feel as though the conversation is being censored, controlled, or directed in ways suited to the ideals or goals of one or a group of individuals. I've been a member of forums that I really enjoyed that went south for those reasons and it's always such a bummer when that happens. If you notice, you can edit your posts for an indefinite amount of time. If you want to come back 5 years later and either delete or edit your posts, you're free to do so. Most forums don't allow that as it leaves room for spam and it's also not good for Google rankings. Say someone starts a thread and makes a long post with the right keywords and that topic starts showing up in Google and bringing traffic to the forum.. and that person decides to come back a year later and edit the post and possibly removes the specific keywords. Well, that would likely mean that post would lose its spot in the Google rankings, and forum growth would take a small hit. We leave editing control to you so that each community member can keep control of their own words and never cedes it fully to the forum. I say that to illustrate that it's important to me that users feel comfortable in saying and discussing whatever they choose so long as (like it says in the very description of this board) it isn't derogatory or offensive. You were neither, and you were thoughtful and respectful, so thanks for that, and please do feel free to discuss what you think is important, but also understand that others are free to tell you if they don't like it. It goes both ways.

Lastly, and I say this with respect, but the name will absolutely not be changed. Not only would that be a technical nightmare (this is a 7-year-old .com domain name and that has value in various ways) but it would also be against community ideals IMO. Just as you are free to do and say as you wish so long as you are respectful and have good intent... so am I. I know for a fact there are no negative racial implications to the forum name whatsoever and therefore it would be wrong to change it based on others' incorrect interpretations.

Now.. I'll be honest, if someone does find it offensive... that does bother me and kinda hurts my feelings a bit as I would never want to offend people in that way. I love people, I love the internet, and I love online communities, and I'm also somewhat of a people pleaser so I really hope that if anyone has that initial first impression, that they will keep an open mind and judge the forum, myself, and the community for their actions.

I hope that sheds some light on things for you or anyone else that may question this. If you are going to be part of an online community, I think you have every right to question the integrity of those involved. I hope you'll stick around and please feel free to hit me up if you need anything.

Cheers,
Sitar_Ned

Thank you for for the very thorough and thoughtful response Sistar_Ned! It sounds like we share a lot of the same values. I hear everything you're saying and appreciate where it's coming from and your openness to have the conversation in a respectful way.

Personally I don't think I was ever offended by the name, it just got me thinking, so I wanted to get the conversation going in case others may be thinking the same or it got other thinking about that as well. I definitely didn't mean to point fingers at anyone either participating in the forum or those organizing it, so if it came across like that, apologies.

This seems like a really great space and I personally have gotten a lot of value from it, so for that thank you.