Author Topic: Consensus on replica frames ??  (Read 109015 times)

Sakizashi

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2023, 10:45:52 AM »
I'm kinda on the fence about riding a bare copy frame, but riding around on a fake one with the actual brand name is mega cringe.

This thread has become a thread showing counterfeits. I personally wouldn’t ride one and am generally opposed to them existing. Given the price points, I want the factory and engineers using their limited resources on making a good frame, not a copy of another frame. I also want more people focused on making great products.

But I also appreciate the clarity around the motivations of people who are buying these. Getting a good looking bike that doesn't break the bank is getting harder and harder, and if you don’t worry about the weight or actual aero performance, some of these copies look really good from 10ft. I cant argue with the pics.

That said, I have seen a fake Pinarello Dogma trying to be passed off as the real thing on a resale site; which was only clear after a friend wasted his time going to see it and noticed some suspicious discrepancies. That’s seriously uncool.

tssy5

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2023, 09:07:36 PM »
I think a lot of people simply think replica / knockoff = unsafe to ride, but in reality, it is about knowing which vendor to trust as some of the factories are producing good quality replica. Some of the big brands out there have a very small R&D department for frame design, maybe not even have one, they just have a huge marketing department. The blueprint of the frames they are selling are also provided by the manufacturer in China, perhaps with a little adjustments heres and theres.

The idea of associating well-known brands with quality and great design is not always accurate, I think people need to start understanding this.

Sebastian

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2023, 01:22:16 AM »
That said, I have seen a fake Pinarello Dogma trying to be passed off as the real thing on a resale site; which was only clear after a friend wasted his time going to see it and noticed some suspicious discrepancies. That’s seriously uncool.

I second that. I own and ride a replica (VB R218). Pinarello certainly hasn’t lost a customer in me as I’m not even remotely in the market for their price range of bikes. But I did shy away from the used market partly because of this. Lots of counterfeits out there and people try to sell them off as legit ones. That’s really not cool. And I’d never put Pinarello decals on my replica nor would I tell anyone it’s real.

carbonazza

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2023, 05:22:07 AM »
The nero show hosted a very interesting discussion about the replica frames with Joe from Panda Podium.


Long story short, I wouldn't descend an Alps col full speed like I love, with a replica  8)

Mic553

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2023, 09:23:25 AM »
From what I can tell the quality of my VBR 218 is no worse than a usual beginner to middle-class carbon frame from a western brand. As we know a lot of western brands just sell chinese frames with their branding and why should a replica frame be worse than other open molds? The replica has the advantage of compatiblity with a lot of accessories or spare parts from the original though. Geometry and aero will often be better too.

So it depends: If you want a superbike, you'll have to pay for the original and there is a bigger difference. But if you just want some easy middle-class well performing bike, the replica can do that just fine.

I wouldn't put stickers on it too, for sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 09:25:16 AM by Mic553 »

carbonazza

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2024, 04:13:38 AM »
From what I can tell the quality of my VBR 218 is no worse than a usual beginner to middle-class carbon frame from a western brand. As we know a lot of western brands just sell chinese frames with their branding and why should a replica frame be worse than other open molds? The replica has the advantage of compatiblity with a lot of accessories or spare parts from the original though. Geometry and aero will often be better too.

So it depends: If you want a superbike, you'll have to pay for the original and there is a bigger difference. But if you just want some easy middle-class well performing bike, the replica can do that just fine.

I wouldn't put stickers on it too, for sure.

Did you watch the video from 24:17 ?
Most replica look the same as the real thing, but just from afar, at best they are QA rejected B or C quality bikes, or at worst just gross copies.
People selling them do not put their skin in the game like the brands that try to build their reputation and trust.

Sebastian

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2024, 05:04:00 AM »
Did you watch the video from 24:17 ?
Most replica look the same as the real thing, but just from afar, at best they are QA rejected B or C quality bikes, or at worst just gross copies.
People selling them do not put their skin in the game like the brands that try to build their reputation and trust.

As with all things carbon from D2C sellers in China, I’d argue it depends on who you’re buying from. It just so happens that with replicas, there might be more shady sellers with questionable QC as with „regular open molds“. Also, the cheaper you go the higher the risk. Usually anyways. But other than that I don’t think replicas do inherently have to be worse than any other piece of carbon you can buy directly from China.

tssy5

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2024, 06:46:08 AM »
As with all things carbon from D2C sellers in China, I’d argue it depends on who you’re buying from. It just so happens that with replicas, there might be more shady sellers with questionable QC as with „regular open molds“. Also, the cheaper you go the higher the risk. Usually anyways. But other than that I don’t think replicas do inherently have to be worse than any other piece of carbon you can buy directly from China.

Correct, the so called B grade or QA rejected frames are often accepted and sold by western brands, it is just that these brands will make sure the paintjob is almost flawless so you won't notice the frame is probably not the best in terms of quality. It really is depends on which seller you buy from rather than simply saying all replicas are worse.

Mic553

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2024, 07:53:32 AM »
Did you watch the video from 24:17 ?
Most replica look the same as the real thing, but just from afar, at best they are QA rejected B or C quality bikes, or at worst just gross copies.
People selling them do not put their skin in the game like the brands that try to build their reputation and trust.

Yes I did and what Joe said was remarkebly vague and generic. As others said already, bad things can happen with other frames and sources too, it depends from whom you buy and not at least the quality control you have to do for yourself. And I can tell from experience that my VBR-218 is fine. The crank doesn't spin any worse than on an original Dogma and it does 80km/h descents just fine. Just the rear brake mount is not perfect, but workable. Everything, including the appearance of the inside of the tubes, very much in line of what I have seen with regular middle-class CF frames from western brands.   

I like Joe from PandaPodium and what he is doing. But he has way too much personal interest in this matter to be your only advisor. Here in Germany buying a replica product is legal for private use. But if you sell something like that, it's a crime. So if Joe would sell replicas, he might get into bigger trouble when returning to Europe. I wouldn't take that risk if I were him. His business is instead making Chinese originals accessible to us, which is great. But for sure he wants us to buy Chinese originals from him and not some replica he can't sell.

Sakizashi

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2024, 04:19:05 PM »
There is a lot of space between a frame being safe to ride and being the quality you see even on second tier frames from the big brands.

It’s worth thinking about the economics of a replica frame selling for $500 painted up as a Factor or Pinarello. I know that it would cost me about $2000-$3000 USD to get a contract manufacturer to make, design a layup for and test a handlebar. I would guess that a frame would be on the order $10k-$12k. It’s probably a breakeven at 50 units at a factory cost of $300 and 30 at less than $200 to make money on a replica frame. To sell 30 frames, you probably need them to pass basic fatigue and safety tests to make sure you can sell even that many. Your don't have much additional budget for development so other than a 3d scan of each frame size to get the shape right and some basic cad work to smooth out the details from the relatively low resolution of that scan, and then work to get the layup good enough to pass the testing. There isn't much budget for additional work. While external tube shape is the majority of the strength of a tube, thickness still matters for stiffness. Because you are using lower quality materials you will end up with thicker tubes, a really stiff bike, and a heavier frame. Its probably been tested enough that it wont break, but will also likely inherit the flaws of the original design because on the outside, it needs to look like the same.

In the case of Factor, they replaced their headset assemblies and changed the design since the Ostro VAM was pulled from competition in 2021 due to sheared steerer tubes. Are you getting the corrected versions of the parts on the Ostro VAM replica? Are the parts even of sufficient quality to avoid the problems that led to the re-design? Can these replica makers get the details of a C shaped steerer right enough to be reliable in the long run? What about the headset and derailleur hanger hardware? Potential headset issues also track with the flaws seen on Cervelo replicas which also use a non-round steerer.

The Pinarello Dogma F suffers from a surprisingly high incidence of cracked seatstays and chainstays as a result of the asymmetric design. The Velobuild version also seems to have this problem. Plus you get bonus headset problems.

An open mold is usually a little more expensive. But, because it's a clean sheet design, they are going to design it in CAD and run the basic FEA stuff and use the results to iterate the design. They have both a good understanding of where / how to adjust the layup and the freedom to change tube shapes to get the performance they are looking for. It looks more generic, but the engineer and designers are incentivized to maximize compatibility with 3rd party components and make the best riding bike they can within their budget because they are looking to secure sales for dozens of bikes with multiple small brands. As a result, these bikes almost always use forks with round steerers and common headset sizes that are easier to design, to make to a high standard, and possible to source from 3rd parties.

A branded version of one of these open mold frames from a brand that does development like a Cinelli or a Guerciotti might ask for layup adjustment, will do some additional QC and swap out the generic hardware for branded FSA or Deda versions. They might stick them in a wind tunnel to help find the right handlebar and wheels to sell with the frame. They might also swap the fork. These bikes win big races at the U23 and junior levels, cost 3x as much, but generally speaking most reviewers will say they fall short of the mid-range bikes from the big brands.

Is the replica safe to ride? Probably, but the commercial motivations are totally different and there is a reason why the open mold is more likely to have the details sorted. So yes, there is an inherent reason why the replica is likely to be a worse bike.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 05:03:02 PM by Sakizashi »

Sebastian

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2024, 12:43:52 AM »
An open mold is usually a little more expensive. But, because it's a clean sheet design, they are going to design it in CAD and run the basic FEA stuff and use the results to iterate the design. They have both a good understanding of where / how to adjust the layup and the freedom to change tube shapes to get the performance they are looking for.

No they're not? Velobuild for instance sells pretty much all their frames at the exact same price point, open molds, replicas, half replicas like the VB168 and so on. You're implying a lot of things here that again go back to my point exactly: It depends who you're buying from. Sure, the more money is involved, the better the knowledge of the people behind the product and therefore its quality. Hopefully anyway. But saying that open mold designers in general "have a good understanding" of the intricacies of frame design is a generalization you cannot really make IMO. There's probably a lot of sellers out there that did not design the frame or they might not even have produced it. And they might not be transparent about it. So there's more to the story IMO.

I take you point though that making something work that you did not design yourself might pose a few traps that these companies do not necessarily see coming. The question then again is how they handle it. I chose VB for this reason and luckily was not disappointed by their customer service when I needed it. Would I have bought a Pinarello badged frame from whatever seller on Aliexpress? Hell no. Would I buy another VB268? In a heartbeat. But just because it's a really nice riding bike and I like the looks of it. I couldn't care less how it compares to the real thing.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 12:45:36 AM by Sebastian »

Sakizashi

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2024, 01:40:09 PM »
No they're not? Velobuild for instance sells pretty much all their frames at the exact same price point, open molds, replicas, half replicas like the VB168 and so on. You're implying a lot of things here that again go back to my point exactly: It depends who you're buying from. Sure, the more money is involved, the better the knowledge of the people behind the product and therefore its quality. Hopefully anyway. But saying that open mold designers in general "have a good understanding" of the intricacies of frame design is a generalization you cannot really make IMO. There's probably a lot of sellers out there that did not design the frame or they might not even have produced it. And they might not be transparent about it. So there's more to the story IMO.

I take you point though that making something work that you did not design yourself might pose a few traps that these companies do not necessarily see coming. The question then again is how they handle it. I chose VB for this reason and luckily was not disappointed by their customer service when I needed it. Would I have bought a Pinarello badged frame from whatever seller on Aliexpress? Hell no. Would I buy another VB268? In a heartbeat. But just because it's a really nice riding bike and I like the looks of it. I couldn't care less how it compares to the real thing.

I agree with nearly all of this. The most important thing is that you love riding your bike. I do think Velobuild is an exception in terms of both price and service but my comment around pricing "generally" holds true if you are shopping on Aliexpress vs. sourcing an open mold frame.

I had left sellers out of my comment and focused on the factories and designers because I was trying to focus my rambling answer on why an open mold is inherently different than a replica. Its also complicated. Some sellers are just sellers. Some sellers are affiliated with factories. Some designers are sellers, but not factories. There are certainly factories that are not designers or sellers. Honestly, it hurts my head trying to figure out both what I want to buy and who to buy it from.

radfactor

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2024, 12:53:19 AM »
If you're not confident buying from velo/replica/fakes/factory and etc, better buy second hand bike from reputable brand.
As for me, I'm willing to take the risk to buy the replica Factor O2. After countless mileage, I have zero issues, and I love it unconditionally.

Wildh24

Re: Consensus on replica frames ??
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2024, 10:25:42 PM »
I bought a workswell open mold about 7 yrs ago. Sweet looking bike but I was really unimpressed with the quality and layup. The bike was really flexy on the top tube and the headset was complete garbage.

I've been skiddish many open mold frames since. I've had no major issues with rims from most suppliers (and I beat em hard on my MTBs), but just haven't gone back to trying a frame.