Carbon spokes or CX Ray?

[abdbeg]

Well, as title suggests, I'm right now between two wheelset, carbon spoke wheelset but with rim (nipple) holes vs standard Saphim CX Ray but without rim holes, so which one do you think should be stiffer and more responsive?

[Serge_K]

Well, as title suggests, I'm right now between two wheelset, carbon spoke wheelset but with rim (nipple) holes vs standard Saphim CX Ray but without rim holes, so which one do you think should be stiffer and more responsive?

Carbon spokes will be much stiffer. And presumably, responsive.
My wheels use sapim cx ray, because i'm 80kg, i like comfort, and i'm the limiting factor, not my gear.
Bear in mind that carbon spokes are much more likely to break, changing them may be an adventure, and so on.

[00Garza]

Carbon might be the superior spoke, but cx ray will be much easier to get ahold of for replacement.

[Wet Noodle]

Sorry in advance, I'm not purposely trying to be a pita, but what is this responsiveness thing?
I mean, it surely is not about transferring rotation from the propelled hub to the rim. I'll go out on a limb and just say windup isn't really a thing in cross-laced bicycle wheels (unless you do some crazy shit like trials).
Is it about the wheel responding to the ground as best it could? According to some, wheels with a bit of self-steer (aka sideways flex) would actually fare better in that regard.
Or is it about the wheel reporting road roughness back to the rider (not that anybody would want that)? While overall stiffness would help a little in theory, it's mostly down to the tires.
Or is it just about the wheels feeling, like, reeeaaaaally good when accelerating, go woosh and give you a fat grin? Just go a fair bit lighter than what you had before.

[Sebastian]

My take as an amateur wheelbuilder:

I built multiple wheelsets with CX Rays and I myself am running three sets. Among steel spokes, these are simply the best compromise. I have not ridden carbon spokes but my guess judging from their properties would be that:
- the wheel feels stiffer laterally and less comfortable (as in harsher on rough roads) vertically
- responsiveness is usually what people refer to when it comes to transfering torsional loads / how direct do the spokes transfer the power to the rims and tires. Carbon spokes are not even remotely as elastic as steel spokes, which is why they have to be tensioned pretty hard in order for them to not go slack when the wheel takes impacts. This is what makes them feel harsher and it is also what makes them feel "more responsive". The spokes in a wheel are basically just pre-tensioned springs that must never lose tension.
- carbon spokes are obviously harder to source and replace - so I would definitely choose a design where the wheel can still be trued with regular tools (Winspace Hypers for instance) and I would make sure to get at least one replacement spoke in every length used so in the event that a spoke does break, I can at least replace it.

Which one is better? It depends on what's most important to you. If I was building an all out no compromise race bike, I might choose carbon spokes. I think the wide tires and lower pressures that people use these days will go some way to alleviate the harsher ride feel. On a gravel or endurance bike however, I'd probably not use them. The weight difference is not really an argument to use them IMO. It's more that for the same weight you could make the spokes have a much more aerodynamic cross section or you could use less spokes for the same overall wheel stiffness.

And lastly of course theres the price difference.

[eeney]

I have wheels with both Carbon and CX Ray.... I don't actually notice a difference from the spokes in regards to performance, there may be marginally more stiffness but I do not notice it.  I don't regret buying the carbon spoked Hypers but I don't feel that the spokes make a big difference, it's not like going from a noodle-carbon-frame to a stiff racing frame where you can feel the responsiveness difference.  I just wanted the lightest, fastest wheels I could afford, so I went Hypers with carbon spokes, I have these on my race/climbing bike and I’m happy with them.

When I had a crash, I had to wait for new spokes to be shipped from Winspace which took a while and cost more than expected (shipping).  Therefore, when I bought lightweight wheels for my endurance bike, I went with CX Ray for the ease of replacement with very similar performance.

Basically, I'm happy I have the carbon spoked wheels because I've 'scratched that itch', I bought a pair because I could, I wanted an affordable 'no shortcuts' wheelset.  However, now I have them, my next wheels were CX Ray for similar performance but much more practicality when replacing.  Does this make sense?  Two things here: 'rational' and 'emotional' decisions... emotionally I wanted the carbon spokes, but rationally the difference is negligible. If I hadn’t bought a pair of carbon spokes wheels then I’d have been left wondering.

So like above, if you want all-out , no chances taken, fastest wheels, or just emotionally ‘want them’ then perhaps go carbon. If you just want really good fast wheels, which are probably 'as fast' but want spokes that are easier to find and replace, then go CX Ray.

[dsveddy]

The youtuber PeakTorque has been testing lateral stiffness of several wheels, where he measures rim deflection when placing a weight on the rim of a wheel oriented parallel to the ground, supported at the axle. In these tests, carbon-spoked rims tend to be laterally stiffer than metal spoked wheels. If you look at his Winspace Hyper D67 review video, you will see his graph with the most updated results.

This form of lateral stiffness supposedly translates to wheel flop under load (the kind that causes brake rub). Whether lateral stiffness should be maximized or optimized, or if it has anything to do with how "responsive" the wheel feels is something we can argue over, but it's clear that this way of measuring lateral stiffness is widespread in the industry. Personally I question if this measurement translates well to the wheel flop caused by pedaling, which is sensitive to spoke lacing patterns.

The flip side to high lateral stiffness is that you lose bump compliance in corners. This is because steel spokes stretch more than carbon spokes (by an order of magnitude!) I personally think this is really important in racing, where it's much more important to be able to comfortably rail through corners with rough asphalt, than to save 100 grams or so. Back in the day (10 years ago or so) an old teammate of mine worked at HED, who told me about how HED believed in moderating spoke tension and using a higher spoke angle--specifically pointing at how Zipp at the time would run high spoke tensions with rear wheels laced radially on one side. (I can attest that Zipp wheels from this time felt stiff and zippy as hell, but wagged under pedaling load like a dog). He said that the difference in handling characteristic supposedly driven by these construction differences is why Mark Cavendish insisted on racing debadged HED Stingers over the sponsor wheels when he raced for Columbia Highroad.

Spoke stretch is also a safety issue, carbon spoked wheels (many with open spoke holes in their hubs) theoretically have a higher risk of de-tensioning a spoke or two over a bump and dislodging a spoke nipple from the hub. By comparison, metal spoked wheels are less likely to catastrophically detension.

For this reason, I chose to go with ICAN aero wheels with CX ray spokes for my most recent wheelset. I probably will go for a carbon spoke wheelset in the future, but the proven metal spoke design seemed like a safe choice for the wheelset I've chosen to ride full-time until I decide to buck up and buy a "racing wheelset"

[patliean1]

In vacuum...carbon spokes are lighter and stiffer.

However, in a real world environment where wheels only play a fraction of the overall system responsiveness I'd say you won't be able to tell the difference. Except maybe the 100-150g difference on a scale.

Frame geometry, frame stiffness/carbon layup, latex/butyl/tubeless, tire pressure, tire selection, and hub design all play a harmonious role. Funny enough...it's really only the Chinese brands in the $1000-$1300 USD price range racing (to the bottom) to offer carbon spokes. You don't really see the major players like ENVE, DT Swiss, or Roval fully jumping on the bandwagon.

If I could only use a single set of road wheels I'd choose CX-Ray straight pull spokes laced to DT-240 hubs and call it a day.

[Sebastian]

Essentially, stretchier (which means thinner) spokes make for more durable wheels (as long as the spoke count is high enough). That's why butted spokes were invented. And that is also why contrary to popular belief, a straight gauge spoke does actually not really make a wheel more durable. The only reason they're used these days is because they're the cheapest.

As dsveddy explained very well, you obviously never want the spokes in a wheel to go slack under impact. Otherwise the wheel will go out of true. Carbon by it's very nature is not very good at stretching. The fibers have very good tensile strength and will stretch very little before they break. That's why carbon makes for stiff frames. I think this is also the reason why Lightweight, who pioneered full carbon wheels for instance, chose to permanently bond their spokes to the rims with their design. The risk of detensioning is basically eliminated.

For all of these reasons I'm curious to see the longevity of designs like the Winspace Hypers.

[abdbeg]

Wow, thank you very much guys, I'm really changing my mind in to the Saphim spoke side.

btw, i found a factory with UCI registration and they supply PRO team and they sell carbon spokes wheelset with the same hub as Light Bicycle (https://www.mostsport.com/700c-50mm-carbon-spoke-wheels-for-road-disc-brake-super-light-weight/) and some in-home made hub (which i like much more because of 2:2 lacing pattern and ratchet system https://www.mostsport.com/700c-50mm-carbon-spoke-wheels-for-road-disc-brake-super-light-weight/) and all of these wheels in the range of 500-600$ which is crazy price.

[Serge_K]

Wow, thank you very much guys, I'm really changing my mind in to the Saphim spoke side.

btw, i found a factory with UCI registration and they supply PRO team and they sell carbon spokes wheelset with the same hub as Light Bicycle (https://www.mostsport.com/700c-50mm-carbon-spoke-wheels-for-road-disc-brake-super-light-weight/) and some in-home made hub (which i like much more because of 2:2 lacing pattern and ratchet system https://www.mostsport.com/700c-50mm-carbon-spoke-wheels-for-road-disc-brake-super-light-weight/) and all of these wheels in the range of 500-600$ which is crazy price.

Interesting. Never heard of them though (eminently anecdotal, isnt it?).
One thing to note: 26mm wide is pretty old school by today's standards. If you want to run 28C, you probably want a 28mm wide rim (at least). My next roadie will be 32C, with 32mm wide rims

[abdbeg]

They have different rim sizes, including 28mm, so no problem.with that

[Wet Noodle]

Carbon by it's very nature is not very good at stretching. The fibers have very good tensile strength and will stretch very little before they break. That's why carbon makes for stiff frames.

I feel you're mixing up material properties here. Strength and stiffness are different things, and so is elongation at break. Carbon fibres are strong and have comparatively little elongation at break, true, but neither is what makes carbon frames stiff.

[Sebastian]

I feel you're mixing up material properties here. Strength and stiffness are different things, and so is elongation at break. Carbon fibres are strong and have comparatively little elongation at break, true, but neither is what makes carbon frames stiff.

Thanks for clarifying. True. I did oversimplify/mix up things. What I meant is that carbon fibers’ material stiffness is very high to begin with. Which is why you CAN build very stiff frames from it.

[abdbeg]

I also asked this question Hambini:



BTW my question originally was how much no hole rim will be stiffer and will it be comparable to the rim without holes and carbon spokes.