Deerobust/Goldix wheel build 50/55mm 1319g

[dsveddy]

I wanted to share with you all the results of my first wheelbuild. The headline specs/stats are:

• weight: 1319g
  
• depth: 50/55mm (front/rear)
  
• width: 21/28 (internal/external)
  
• cost: $718

I've been meaning to make this thread for a while. I've been busy finishing my PhD and finally had the time to cobble it together. Theres some more build info I want to add in a later post but I'll put this up for now.

I had recently bought myself a truing stand and tensionmeter to rebuild a wheel with a rim that I broke racing CX. Now having the tools to build wheels, I got curious about the phenomenally low prices on wheelbuilding components, as well as the freedom to pursue interesting build configurations.

I'll be transparent here: this is a vanity build driven by questionable weight and aero-weenie-ing. Experienced wheelbuilders will probably cringe at my choices, and that's fine with me. The irony of scraping for grams on this build while I could stand to lose 20lbs of body fat is not lost on me. At the end of the day I had a lot of fun building these up, I think they look super cool, it's exciting to me that I've built up such a lightweight wheelset, and I've had a pretty good experience riding them so far. Given this premise of vanity over practicality, I hope you can appreciate my wheelbuild for what it is.

Rims:
I did a bit of searching for the manufacturer of the lightest rims and landed on Deerobust. It helps that they are the first result when you search "lightest carbon rim" into aliex. This is no exaggeration, the 21mm-internal-width, 50 and 55mm-deep rims I chose ("featherweight"-spec + paintless finish) were quoted at 390g and 420g respectively; the only manufacturer that seems to come close is Lightcarbon.

I chose 50/55 simply because it's a depth that seemed to strike a good balance between weight and aero. I also won't lie and say that the decision was influenced by the fact that the Enve SES 4.5 rims used by Pogi and UAE are 50/55mm deep, even though if we're being realistic those are completely different wheels. I chose 21mm internal width because it seems that this is still the ideal rim width for aero given a 28mm tire. I understand the rule of 105% says otherwise. On the other hand, Peak-torque's testing results (particularly the comparison of the Polaris Ascent 42 against the ICAN Aero 35 across 28mm and 32mm tires) suggests that a 28mm tire is faster on a 21mm internal width rim compared a wider one.

Another feature I chose for my rims is internally-drilled spoke holes. For one, there is the (dubious) aero benefit of having hidden nipples. But more importantly--as ENVE's marketing material points out--smaller spoke holes means stronger spoke holes, and therefore a stronger, safer rim.

I paid $507 (inc. shipping) to order my rims from Deerobust, with bespoke paintless finish, hole-drilling, and logo.  The rims weighed 410 and 415g respectively. I was a tad disappointed that my front rim came 5g over the spec weight +/- 15g margin of error. On the other hand, my rear rim came 5g under spec weight, the average weight between the two was under the +/- 15g per rim margin of error, so I called it good and decided to not complain.

Hubs
As for hubs, I chose GOLDIX 21-spoke hubs with 2:1 lacing. These have no official model number but appear to be a DT-swiss style ratchet hub with straight-pull lacing. I chose these because a) Goldix seems to have a fairly decent reputation on here, and b) these hubs are very lightweight. The standout unique design feature of these hubs is that there are 21 spokes, 14 spokes laced in a 3x pattern on the stressed side (drive side on rear, brake side on front), and 7 radially-laced spokes on the non-drive side. I went for this unusual design because fewer spokes theoretically means lighter and more aero, while the 2:1 3x lacing, especially when paired to such deep rims, potentially could make up for the loss in stiffness. Remember, this is a vanity build.

When my hubs arrived, they seemed to be of decent quality. The bearings were a tad notchy--something that has gone away since I started riding them. The bearings are "NBK" brand, and have metal ball cages, which are a feature of decent-quality bearings. These aren't showstoppers, but they aren't complete garbage either.

One criticism I have about these hubs is that that to achieve radial lacing on the non-stressed side, the hub axle has a hole drilled out to allow a spoke to be passed through into the back of the spoke hole. This means that the wheel bearing on the radially laced side is offset inboards an entire centimeter. This is bad for hub stiffness and longevity. The further inboards the bearing sits, the longer the unsupported section of the axle is (making less stiff), and the bearing has to bear more axial/side loading (which harms longevity). In the future I might swap these hubs out for a different design.

Spokes and nipples
For this build I chose Pillar Wing 20 with Pillar hex-10 internal nipples. I have a whole extra story to tell about these nipples that I will get to another time. I chose these spokes over the alternative (Sapim CX Ray/DT aerolite) because they are supposedly stiffer, lighter, just as aero, and definitely are cheaper. The idea that a wider spoke section is just as aero as a narrower one baffles me, but I'll trust in Campagnolo and Boyd, who have supposedly tested this difference and chose the Pillar wings. I also spoke-prepped my threads using Rock n Roll Nipple cream.

Finishing touches
As is common, I have wrapped my wheels in 28mm Continental GP5000 clincher tires, with RideNow 19gr tubes inside, likely the lightest and lowest-rolling-resistance combo in the Continental range, barring the GP5000TT. I'm also running ONIRII's super-light 160mm floating disc rotors, and an S-ROAD one-piece 11-32 cassette

Overall impressions
So far I've logged about 100 miles on these new wheels on my road bike. They certainly sound cool and feel fast. And they do not feel like they're particularly lacking in stiffness. One major complaint I am experiencing is that my freehub ratchet has been slipping occasionally. I serviced it and found that I had reinstalled the o-ring incorrectly and that some dirt/grime had made its way into the ratchet. After a bit of cleaning and regreaseing it was nearly perfect once again, perhaps I need to clean it more and regrease with the special DT swiss ratchet grease.

Are these truly "fast" wheels? Who knows. They haven't stopped me from setting a bunch of Strava PRs here and there. But as far as bling factor, these are 10/10, super cool and super fun wheels to have.

Thanks for reading my wheelbuild story. Would love to hear your thoughts and questions. Hopefully soon, I can make a quick post about how I dealt with some challenges I experienced using the Hex-10 nipples.

[Sebastian]

If this really is your first ever wheelbuild then you chose something with quite the steep learning curve
I've been building wheels for many years. I started out with rim brake alloy wheel stuff mostly for commuters and urban bikes, like lacing wheels with hub dynamos and stuff for myself and friends. From there I went to building more complex spoke patterns and carbon wheels and so on.

I agree with most of your choices except for two:

A 2:1 spoke ratio made a lot of sense on rim brake rear wheels IMO, where one side took all the torsional load and therefore is laced in a 3 cross pattern while the other side can be laced radially (which is how the Ford factory did it way back on laced car wheels when they invented the idea). It made sense because of the drastic difference in spoke angles with the DS spokes being much further inboard due to the cassette. Ever since disc brakes, both side's spokes had to move inboard and the difference in spoke angle and tension isn't as bad as it used to be. So the advantage of 2:1 isn't really as big as it used to be. Personally, I stopped doing it. I do think that asymmetric rear rims with a slight offset to the NDS make sense to further correct the difference in spoke angles. But that's about it.

The other thing is internal nipples. I think it's not worth the hassle. Sure, you chose superlight rims so it might be better to err on the side of caution. But I think Enve's argument that this makes a sturdier rim is marketing bogus. What is much more important is that the rim bed is reinforced as a whole, which is the case with most carbon rims. And it's important that the spoke holes are drilled cleanly and accurately in exactly the correct angles, so as to not cause stress at the nipples and threads due to bending moments. This is the case with most well made rims, but I had bad examples from some Chinese sellers. Like you, I've sourced rims from various Aliexpress sellers over the years.

The aero benefit of internal nipples might be there. Honestly, I don't care. If you ever choose to run your wheels tubeless it'll be a huge PITA to access the nipples should you ever have to. Also, since weight seems important to you, it'll increase spoke length and therfore makes the wheel marginally heavier. A well built wheel will usually not go out of true. But there can be incidents like hitting pot holes in a race or whatever.

But like many things in wheelbuilding, this is just my philosophy. I think you did a stellar job and built a super impressive wheelset. Congrats! And it's a really nice feeling to be riding around on one of a kind wheels that you yourself built.

[dsveddy]

Hey Sebastian, thanks for the notes and kind feedback!

If this really is your first ever wheelbuild then you chose something with quite the steep learning curve

I've rebuilt 2 wheels in the past to replace carbon rims broken in racing incidents. Not sure if that counts! Definitely was my first time speccing out a full build and calculating spoke lengths, I think half the fun was playing around with spreadsheets and fantasizing about different builds.

I definitely agree with you that the decisions to go for 21-spokes and internal nipples are the most disagreeable and impractical choices I made. I've already had to strip my rear wheel to re-tension and true after the first 100k, and the front wheel will be next soon. No doubt a PITA, one I knowingly signed up for. I appreciate your notes on spoke hole sizes as well, good to hear a more experienced perspective on this idea.

I also appreciate your notes on the 2:1 lacing;
The decision to go for the 21-spoke build felt like a risk. At the back of my mind I still worry that I am subjecting the rear rim to bad stresses via the radially laced spokes on the disc-side. Will it be worth the 29 grams, and indeterminable, marginal CdA that I saved? Only time will tell, I suppose.

Ever since disc brakes, both side's spokes had to move inboard and the difference in spoke angle and tension isn't as bad as it used to be. So the advantage of 2:1 isn't really as big as it used to be.

Something I noticed is that on the rear wheel, I have pretty much dead-even spoke tension across both sides. In my mind this seems desirable, no? Obviously since I'm new to this, I could be overlooking something or overstating the importance of this. On that note, something I do not like about these hubs is that on the front wheel, the radially-laced side achieve significantly higher tension than the crossed spokes. The idea that a minority of the spokes on a wheel are at a higher tension than the majority does not sit well with me, especially on a design that is supposed to "balance" spoke tensions. In retrospect, I agree that an asymmetric rim is probably the better way to do it, the asymmetric rims on my ICAN Aero 35s does a much better job balancing spoke tensions on the front wheel.

Anyways, I definitely learned a lot from the experience of building these wheels. I think next I'll build up some gravel wheels, and stick to a more traditional build

[Sebastian]

At the back of my mind I still worry that I am subjecting the rear rim to bad stresses via the radially laced spokes on the disc-side.

That should not be the case, provided that your rim is drilled for a 2:1 pattern? If your rim has the usual drilling with alternating holes angled left and right then it won't be compatible with 2:1 lacing, because that obviously requires 2 holes angled to the DS followed by 1 to the NDS. But I'm assuming you know that.

Something I noticed is that on the rear wheel, I have pretty much dead-even spoke tension across both sides. In my mind this seems desirable, no?

Yes. That's exactly what you want. And 2:1 lacing was invented exactly for this purpose. On a traditional 2crossed rim brake rear wheel with let's say 12spokes on each side, you'd get as little as 50% or less of the spoke tension on the NDS compared to the DS. Particularly with aluminium rims where usually the max spoke tension must not exceed about 1200N, you'll get less than 600N on the NDS. That's low enough that the spokles might detension themselves over time when the wheel hits potholes etc. With (high quality) carbon rims the spoke tension can be higher. I've built wheels with spoke tension in the 1500N range. That makes detensioning less of an issue. With carbon spokes the tension is even higher because those are not as elastic as steel spokes so they need to be tightened to crazy high tensions.

[Chiyou]

Nice wheels and all, but can I ask about the truing stand? Is that an AliExpress model or rather a Western product?

Good luck with your degree!

[TidyDinosaur]

Nice wheels and all, but can I ask about the truing stand? Is that an AliExpress model or rather a Western product?

Good luck with your degree!

It's Ali, I have the same. Works great after a little bit of adjusting. You can't rely on it for your wheel to be perfectly centred though.

[dsveddy]

Nice wheels and all, but can I ask about the truing stand? Is that an AliExpress model or rather a Western product?

It's sold by RRS Kit. As Tidy said, it's available on Ali. I bought mine on Amazon, it was actually cheaper that way.

As Tidy said, it's not centered at all. The right side support wiggles and puts the wheel about 5mm to the right of center. I haven't been able to fix it, but I can deal with it during dishing by repeatedly flipping the wheel around. Funny enough, TOOT engineering seems to build their wheels on the same stand. If it's good enough for those guys it definitely gets my job done.

The nice thing is that it comes with precision dials to measure trueness, so you can easily find the point of greatest deflection away from your reference point. I try to true down to less than 0.5mm deviation in any direction, I think I'm consistently in the neighborhood of 0.3mm.

Good luck with your degree!

Thank you! I graduated this weekend, so off to new adventures, and hopefully a little more time to ride (and hopefully to lose some weight too )

[BalticSea]

Wing 20 spokes are easier to build with and cheaper, so brands have to use voodoo marketing to justify costs saving. They are not stiffer than CX Rays

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=237506#:~:text=The%20difference%20is%20that%20the,%2C%20and%20cross%2Dsectional%20area.

[Sebastian]

I’ve bult wheels with CX Rays, Wing 20s/Pillar 1420s and CN494 spokes. I couldn’t really tell much of a difference with any of them neither when building nor when riding. Maybe I’m not the most sensitive person in that regard. The quality of the threads was maybe slightly less refined on the CN spokes. They cost half as much as CX Rays so that’s to be expected, I guess. The Pillars have a slightly longer round section before they’re bladed IIRC. But no big difference at all. These days I’d probably build with whatever’s readily available in the desired length.

[Chiyou]

For the Wing 20s, what spoke category are you guys using with your tensiometer? My deflection table has an entry for 'Steel Blade Spoke 1.2x1.9mm', which seems reasonably close. What gives me pause though is that, as far as I understand it, the Wings have a more diamond-shaped profile compared to traditional bladed spokes. (I don't have any hands-on experience with the Wings but should be getting some for my wheel build within the next few days.)

[Pedaldancer]

For the Wing 20s, what spoke category are you guys using with your tensiometer? My deflection table has an entry for 'Steel Blade Spoke 1.2x1.9mm', which seems reasonably close. What gives me pause though is that, as far as I understand it, the Wings have a more diamond-shaped profile compared to traditional bladed spokes. (I don't have any hands-on experience with the Wings but should be getting some for my wheel build within the next few days.)

These tables with values for spokes are just a collection of numbers.
If you want to know how the deflection turns into spoke tension you must calibrate your tensiometer tool for every spoke type you use. If you only true finished wheels it doesn't really matter, but if you build them from scratch you must know the absolute numbers and these sheets with some generic spokes are not the best guide.