A little warning to EU buyers who decide not to use prepaid tax option

[TidyDinosaur]

This can get very expensive...
Let me explain...

I ordered a aluminium gravel frame during sales on November 29 for 202 USD. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007201451676.html
The seller did not offer prepaid-tax shipping, so I decided to order anyway and pay duties and tax when the frame was imported into my country (Belgium).
The frame arrived with customs about a month later. The courier took more than 2 weeks to do the paperwork and I had to pay 50 EUR tax and handling. That was OK.

But than the trouble began. The seller had apparently put a value of 80 USD on the document, which customs did not really believe (can't blame them). So after a couple of weeks I got a letter from customs to deliver proof of the real value of the item. This was 202 USD and I sent them my payment proof and a printscreen from the Ali order.

Today I got an email that because the seller had committed fraud, they are fining me 250 EUR (because they can't get to the seller of course) + anti-dumping tax + VAT for a total of 390 EUR. I can not refuse the frame and if I do not pay they take me to court and it will get much more expensive... They say I should try to get the money from the seller myself.

So all in all this frame is now costing me 200 + 50 + 390 = 640 EUR and a big part of that is because the seller has lied on the form.

[Serge_K]

Ouch. that feels unfair as you dont control the value the seller declares.
Also, it's customary business practice to declare low values on packages, i think it's intrinsically why prepaid shipping exists: if that includes VAT, it implies a low value inside the box.
Also, the 80 is probably the real cost, w/o shipping. did you make that argument? a large portion of prices on AliX are shipping costs, so if you paid 200, 120 shipping, 80 product, it actually feels legit. you can go on alibaba and screenshot the same stuff, you'll probably see prices in this neighborhood.
The fine is unfair as it's just punitive.
Are you sure you can't reject the parcel?
did you contact Aliexpress? it must be the sort of thing they hear about very regularly.
I guess you shouldnt have sent them proof that there was a discrepancy between the 80 & 202? Maybe pretending it was a gift, or that you won the item, or that it was warranty replacement? Because you kind of gave them a smoking gun.
But even then, the fine is just unreasonable. it's not like you're a business defrauding the state, you bought cheap stuff that was declared as even cheaper.

[TidyDinosaur]

Ouch. that feels unfair as you dont control the value the seller declares.
Also, it's customary business practice to declare low values on packages, i think it's intrinsically why prepaid shipping exists: if that includes VAT, it implies a low value inside the box.
Also, the 80 is probably the real cost, w/o shipping. did you make that argument? a large portion of prices on AliX are shipping costs, so if you paid 200, 120 shipping, 80 product, it actually feels legit. you can go on alibaba and screenshot the same stuff, you'll probably see prices in this neighborhood.
The fine is unfair as it's just punitive.
Are you sure you can't reject the parcel?
did you contact Aliexpress? it must be the sort of thing they hear about very regularly.
I guess you shouldnt have sent them proof that there was a discrepancy between the 80 & 202? Maybe pretending it was a gift, or that you won the item, or that it was warranty replacement? Because you kind of gave them a smoking gun.
But even then, the fine is just unreasonable. it's not like you're a business defrauding the state, you bought cheap stuff that was declared as even cheaper.

To me it looks like there is nothing I can do about it...
No way I could justify the 80 USD. They are not stupid. They also stated the total price needed to be incl. shipping, so the argument of 80 USD without shipping does not stand...
The letter explicitly states I have to pay the amount, no matter if I reject the frame or not. The fine has nothing to do with the order itself, but is because of the seller's fraud.

I agree the fine is unreasonable, but I guess it's to keep you from buying like this. I had no idea I could be fined for the sellers fraud. If I had known, I would not have bought without prepaid tax.
I will start a dispute with Ali in the hopes to at least get a refund for the price of the frame. This does not cover everything, but I believe there is no chance in hell Ali is going to refund the total fine. I even have little hope of getting any money from Ali or the seller, since in reality the fine has nothing to do with the item.

I still have to receive my frame and I hope it will still be in one piece when it arrives since it seems to have been unpacked now...

[Phil]

I'm planning also on ordering a frame on Aliexpress and therefore asked German customs via E-mail about the current regulations.
It seems that you need to have luck and find a seller that cares about EU regulations. For Germany the seller/courier need to put a certain code on the packaging to prevent taxes. There is a rule for private customers that excludes them from all the high taxes. You just need to pay VAT and a small customs fee.
I wrote to two sellers regarding this topic but haven't received an answer yet. Until this is not clear I won't by on AliExpress.
I keep my fingers crossed that maybe AliExpress can support you. I would definitely write an E-mail to them. I had a similar issue on Alibaba in 2023 and Alibaba supported me quiet well and the seller refunded me. They declared completely wrong and I had to pay way to high taxes and fees.

[TidyDinosaur]

I'm planning also on ordering a frame on Aliexpress and therefore asked German customs via E-mail about the current regulations.
It seems that you need to have luck and find a seller that cares about EU regulations. For Germany the seller/courier need to put a certain code on the packaging to prevent taxes. There is a rule for private customers that excludes them from all the high taxes. You just need to pay VAT and a small customs fee.
I wrote to two sellers regarding this topic but haven't received an answer yet. Until this is not clear I won't by on AliExpress.
I keep my fingers crossed that maybe AliExpress can support you. I would definitely write an E-mail to them. I had a similar issue on Alibaba in 2023 and Alibaba supported me quiet well and the seller refunded me. They declared completely wrong and I had to pay way to high taxes and fees.

I just had a chat with customer support and they asked me to provide proof which I did. Now we wait...
There were indeed codes on the form, and customs said the seller lied with those too and the correct codes were subjected to anti-dumping tax so that also added 90 EUR to the total.

[00Garza]

Wow. That's wild. A very expensive cheap frame.
This is the kind of stuff I'm worrying about now in the US. Didn't know how spoiled we were until recent changes.

[rockerplates.de]

This can get very expensive...
Let me explain...

I ordered a aluminium gravel frame during sales on November 29 for 202 USD. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007201451676.html
The seller did not offer prepaid-tax shipping, so I decided to order anyway and pay duties and tax when the frame was imported into my country (Belgium).
The frame arrived with customs about a month later. The courier took more than 2 weeks to do the paperwork and I had to pay 50 EUR tax and handling. That was OK.

But than the trouble began. The seller had apparently put a value of 80 USD on the document, which customs did not really believe (can't blame them). So after a couple of weeks I got a letter from customs to deliver proof of the real value of the item. This was 202 USD and I sent them my payment proof and a printscreen from the Ali order.

Today I got an email that because the seller had committed fraud, they are fining me 250 EUR (because they can't get to the seller of course) + anti-dumping tax + VAT for a total of 390 EUR. I can not refuse the frame and if I do not pay they take me to court and it will get much more expensive... They say I should try to get the money from the seller myself.

So all in all this frame is now costing me 200 + 50 + 390 = 640 EUR and a big part of that is because the seller has lied on the form.

well, frankly speaking, that is the normal way to import a bike frame..there are anti dumping tarifs applied, it depends in which european country your importing to.
The seller is only responsible to deliver the product to your border, the import is completely on your side..sure, all the sellers find ways and play tricks, and the frame reaches you without bigger add ons.
In germany, you must inform customs and pay all duties according to import laws...usually you can import 1 piece every 1 or 3 months, i do not remember correct without anti dumping tax applied...if have had this once, even being a commercial importer.

So, the seller is called being a fraud, but he did nothing wrong. You did not provide correct paper work to you forwarding carrier, so the fine should be ok....

I suppose that is the risk of direct importing and in Germany, authorities are just overwelmed by the quantities of parcels, otherwise anti dumping tax would apply more often..people just get lucky
EU is planning new costs for parcel being sent from China...so all the little orders will cost money for customs etc..

[coffeebreak]

This is the kind of stuff I'm worrying about now in the US. Didn't know how spoiled we were until recent changes.

Exactly. From that other thread, it looks it has already started happening.

[rasch]

This can get very expensive...
Let me explain...

I ordered a aluminium gravel frame during sales on November 29 for 202 USD. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007201451676.html
The seller did not offer prepaid-tax shipping, so I decided to order anyway and pay duties and tax when the frame was imported into my country (Belgium).
The frame arrived with customs about a month later. The courier took more than 2 weeks to do the paperwork and I had to pay 50 EUR tax and handling. That was OK.

But than the trouble began. The seller had apparently put a value of 80 USD on the document, which customs did not really believe (can't blame them). So after a couple of weeks I got a letter from customs to deliver proof of the real value of the item. This was 202 USD and I sent them my payment proof and a printscreen from the Ali order.

Today I got an email that because the seller had committed fraud, they are fining me 250 EUR (because they can't get to the seller of course) + anti-dumping tax + VAT for a total of 390 EUR. I can not refuse the frame and if I do not pay they take me to court and it will get much more expensive... They say I should try to get the money from the seller myself.

So all in all this frame is now costing me 200 + 50 + 390 = 640 EUR and a big part of that is because the seller has lied on the form.

Don't worry. Now that we have a government it will be even better. We will have capital gains tax and we won't get any tax reduction in our salaries in the next years

In any case, try to claim. If you never tried to lie in the pricing it's not on you. Will be annoying but I think you can reach them and show it's not under ur control

[rockerplates.de]

Don't worry. Now that we have a government it will be even better. We will have capital gains tax and we won't get any tax reduction in our salaries in the next years

In any case, try to claim. If you never tried to lie in the pricing it's not on you. Will be annoying but I think you can reach them and show it's not under ur control

Well, it is on the clients/customer side to ensure proper and correct paperwork (no Fake invoice). Not the sellers..in Germany, it can get pretty expensive and also high fines apply...if you do that on purpose.

At the local customs office, if the mancount is good, you need to proof the invoice amount by showing them your payment confirmation (paypal), for any imported sale...if it hits customs...you may end up having big trouble if you have deceive there...as we have huge amounts of parcels, but still the same amount of workers, it is a mismatch.
So seeing us postal service boycot is a good thing, as the whole import process is very expensive and at least in Germany, we treat china shipment like third world! and shipping costs are cut of at 4 Euros if i remember correctly, the rest of the transfer is on DHL side, so we all pay for the costs....EVERY import which hits customs for clearance, dhl has to pay something around 9 Euros!!!that is what an official at the customs office told me.

[TidyDinosaur]

Customs is very clear about this in their communication. The fine has nothing to do with me not providing documents (which I did) but the seller lying on the paperwork. If they had just put the true value on the documents all would have been fine.

It is also explicitly stated that the fine is for the seller, but because they have now way of getting their money from them, I have to pay and try to get the money back from the seller.

Aliexpress replied me but they just said that it is normal to pay duties and tax and in no way addressed the fine. I have replied to make it clear that it is a fine and not standard tax and duties. At this point I am not counting on getting any money back, but we'll see.

[Avalius]

Damn that's a shitty situation. But if they take it to court, there is no way they can hold you responsible for the seller his fraud. I wouldn't pay the fine and well the frame that's a loss. Could keep disputing this with aliexpress, there is a chance they will refund you.
You didn't do anything wrong here. You made a payment with AliExpress and got correct details, you even provided those.
If it was me I wouldn't pay and let them escalate this to court. If they are not just treatening you to make someone pay.
Big chance they ditch the frame and you hear nothing about this anymore..

[TidyDinosaur]

Damn that's a shitty situation. But if they take it to court, there is no way they can hold you responsible for the seller his fraud. I wouldn't pay the fine and well the frame that's a loss. Could keep disputing this with aliexpress, there is a chance they will refund you.
You didn't do anything wrong here. You made a payment with AliExpress and got correct details, you even provided those.
If it was me I wouldn't pay and let them escalate this to court. If they are not just treatening you to make someone pay.
Big chance they ditch the frame and you hear nothing about this anymore..

I'm afraid I have already paid yesterday. I lost sleep about it this night because I was indeed thinking they might have just been trying to scare me in to paying with their letter and I should have done more research before paying...
But no way I have any leverage now because they have my money so I'm going to categorise this as a very expensive lesson.

[rasch]

Well, it is on the clients/customer side to ensure proper and correct paperwork (no Fake invoice). Not the sellers..in Germany, it can get pretty expensive and also high fines apply...if you do that on purpose.

In this case the client has no intervention. The package is sent by the seller. Together with it comes a paper/invoice or whatever declared value. That's "manually" inserted by the seller/sender. Hence I don't see how the blame can be on the buyer.

If there is a conversation exchange saying that the declared price is lower or such request, yes. In that situation the buyer could be blamed. Else, I see no reason for that to happen.

To put it into another perspective. If the OP bought a bike frame, but he was sent drugs from a legit website, why would he ever be blameable for such thing (especially if it's the first time)?

-------

I'm afraid I have already paid yesterday. I lost sleep about it this night because I was indeed thinking they might have just been trying to scare me in to paying with their letter and I should have done more research before paying...
But no way I have any leverage now because they have my money so I'm going to categorise this as a very expensive lesson.

I can understand your stress indeed, but now that they have the money, will be much harder. Trying to get it back doesn't harm in any case.

[TidyDinosaur]

A little update (or lack of it)...

Aliexpress does not respond to my mails about there being a difference between tax and a fine for fraud. ...

The seller is playing with me. Saying they will pay back part of the costs, but I know this game and expect they are not planning to do that and are just keeping me busy until I give up... Every day there is some vague answers to my (or besides my...) questions and they always have to "ask the boss" so they can waste another day of my time without giving me an answer.

And I'm still waiting for my frame...