Sensah Electronic Groupset (14 speed?)

[jonathanf2]

Any word on possible cost?

I'll try and find out through my contact if they don't announce it. Ballpark estimate should be similar to Wheeltop and LTwoo groupsets.

[Chiyou]

A somewhat fleeting look by Pandaman (China Cycling) from the Shanghai Bike Show (along with the usual assortment of the weird, wacky and wonderful):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb8y1Vp0md8 (groupset at 3:30)

[jonathanf2]

don't play dumb, the 14 speed thing is a marketing tagline. I have simply no confidence it will be good in practive. The 3 speed thing is also a marketing tagline, nobody will be running that.

Think outside the box. The applications for variable speed derailleurs go beyond just regular bikes. There are folding bikes, mini velos, commuters, cargo bikes, etc. that can benefit. A 3 speed cassette weighs less than 70g. A folding bike with no shift cables, 1x chainring and 3 speed cassette sounds pretty reasonable. If 14 speed cassettes are doable why not? No one is harping about SRAM going 13 speed, so what's the difference?

[toxin]

Think outside the box. The applications for variable speed derailleurs go beyond just regular bikes. There are folding bikes, mini velos, commuters, cargo bikes, etc. that can benefit. A 3 speed cassette weighs less than 70g. A folding bike with no shift cables, 1x chainring and 3 speed cassette sounds pretty reasonable.

fine w/e

If 14 speed cassettes are doable why not? No one is harping about SRAM going 13 speed, so what's the difference?

because sram are using direct mount UDH to expand get enough room to fit an extra cog on the outer side of the cassette, WITHOUT AFFECTING THE DIMENSIONS OF THE REST OF THE CASSETTE. 12sp was done the same way, adding a cog to the inside of the cassette, but there is no more room to add another cog there, and even if you could, it would make chainlines even worse than they already are.

So in order to make 14sp cassette for this derailleur, you would have to fit 2 more cogs inside the same width as a 12sp cassette. In order to aciheve that you have to:

• Tighten the spacing between the cogs, which would make shifting performance much more sensitive to imperfections in setup and require thinner chain plates, which would negatively impact chain durability,
• Make the cogs narrower. The reduced volume of material negatively impacts durability and gives you less room to work with to shape shifting ramps and worsening shifting performance

[kubackje]

don't play dumb, the 14 speed thing is a marketing tagline. I have simply no confidence it will be good in practive. The 3 speed thing is also a marketing tagline, nobody will be running that.

Jonathan posted a picture of a 14 speed cassette above. I'm curious how this will work.

[makl]

fine w/e
because sram are using direct mount UDH to expand get enough room to fit an extra cog on the outer side of the cassette, WITHOUT AFFECTING THE DIMENSIONS OF THE REST OF THE CASSETTE. 12sp was done the same way, adding a cog to the inside of the cassette, but there is no more room to add another cog there, and even if you could, it would make chainlines even worse than they already are.

So in order to make 14sp cassette for this derailleur, you would have to fit 2 more cogs inside the same width as a 12sp cassette. In order to aciheve that you have to:

• Tighten the spacing between the cogs, which would make shifting performance much more sensitive to imperfections in setup and require thinner chain plates, which would negatively impact chain durability,
• Make the cogs narrower. The reduced volume of material negatively impacts durability and gives you less room to work with to shape shifting ramps and worsening shifting performance

To be fair, Campagnolo managed a 13 speed cassette which works just fine without needing UDH (even works with 12-speed flattop chains). Apparently there's already a wheeltop(?) 14-speed cassette sold on complete builds, which seems to work fine as well (however, I think using a proprietary freehub body and a narrower hub design).

Since owning one, I'm a huge fan of 1-by drivetrains on race bikes. Using a 13-speed cassette, I'm really not missing anything! Gear spacing is no issue (at least with my 13 speed setup), and lowest ans highest gears are spot on. If there's a new option for that, maybe even with 14 cogs, that would be great in my opinion!

[raisinberry777]

For gearing alone, 1 bike to do both road and gravel is going to do both poorly.

Preach! I feel like this is rarely considered in terms of 'one bike to do it all', it's that you have to compromise on gearing one way or the other. Obviously this is different for everyone's preferences with gearing, but like you, I have a strong preference for 1x on gravel, but feel like 2x is still the better choice for road (on 12 speed at least). I wouldn't particularly enjoy my 1x gravel gearing on the road bike (especially since I'm on the 10-50 12 speed cassette), and I definitely hated having 2x on a gravel bike.

[Sebastian]

First ride impressions by Joe from China Cycling: https://youtu.be/M2u36guxPLg?si=IMA6_yOEokB5jPjt

Apart from his impression: Is it just me, or is the Chinese groupset market steering more and more in the direction of what are basically modified clones of the big groupset makers' products? Not judging, just observing. (I'm in no position to judge since I ride a Chinarello)

Ltwoo's hydraulic internals in the shifters are 1:1 copies of Campagnolo's braking system. This is also why the shaping of the hoods is at least remotely resemling Campy. I know, because I own both Campy Ekar and various Ltwoo hydro brifters, mechanical and electronic. Well, and their early mechanical stuff was a 1:1 Campy design clone as well.

Magene QED looks literally exactly like Shimano Di2. I mean you literally couldn't tell the brifters apart in a blind test I'm sure.

And now Sensah: They're not even trying to hide the fact that they're basically copying Sram's latest Red groupset. I mean the brifters and calipers are virtually identical. Sure, the cassette is different. But essentially they copied Sram Red and modified it.

It might just be a cultural thing? In China, copying is sort of honoring the genius of the original idea IIRC?

[patliean1]

Why didn't they just engineer the groupset around UDH?

I can't imagine Sram having a patent on the usage of their hanger in tandem with competing groupsets right? Right?

[Ultramic]

The issue is that these Chinese electronic groupsets costs as much as the brand name ones (Shimano in my case). At least Shimano is tried and tested whereas you end up being a guinea pig for the Chinese groupsets and they take a few iterations to make it work flawlessly.

[Sebastian]

Why didn't they just engineer the groupset around UDH?

I can't imagine Sram having a patent on the usage of their hanger in tandem with competing groupsets right? Right?

They did, if I understand it correctly. Joe mentioned that they made the hanger slightly thinner on the inside of the frame to cram another cog in. Which is actually the Lockring of the cassette. That’s a pretty cool and obvious idea.

[SWeiden]

And now Sensah: They're not even trying to hide the fact that they're basically copying Sram's latest Red groupset. I mean the brifters and calipers are virtually identical. Sure, the cassette is different. But essentially they copied Sram Red and modified it.

It might just be a cultural thing? In China, copying is sort of honoring the genius of the original idea IIRC?

They could be "copying", but I think it also sort of makes sense that everyones engineering converges at some point. A brake caliper experiences the same forces regardless of the fact who developed it, if you want to make it lightweight then youll end up taking weight out of the same places. You could even say sram and campagnolo copied shimanos ideas for brifters and modified them and didnt stick to running downtube shifters, so some amount of copying is arguably good for the consumer in my opinion

[Sebastian]

They could be "copying", but I think it also sort of makes sense that everyones engineering converges at some point.

Sure. But I’m not only talking about technology. I’m talking about the looks. The calipers and brifters look exactly the same between Sram/Sensah. But whatever. More options is always a good thing.

[RDY]

They went with 14 speed because they think it'll get them a big immediate chunk of the domestic OEM market.  Brands can market it as the first 14 speed and a significant subsection of new and information poor cyclists in China (many millions of people) will be easily swayed.

The idea it'll work as well as 11 or 12 speed is likely fanciful.

They claim it will be 14 speed only, but I'm sure this is not the case and they'll unlock software to use standard HG / normal hanger  12 speed setups at least - or they'll release the same thing rebranded with minimal changes for 11-12s.  They just want all the talk to be about 14 speed for now.

Anyway, for the reasons they did this it's working very well.  They'd virtually been forgotten in the electronic game .. now they're being talked about much more at the show, and online both in China and elsewhere, than WheelTop, LTWoo or even Magene (who look to have the most mature offering).

[Ultramic]

Says who? The er9 is a fraction of the cost of Shimano 105 di2, if you buy it intelligently. And the consensus on here is to buy di2 if there is no price difference.
I keep trying to buy Shimano then when I try to actually get the spec I want, the pricing is just insulting and I buy another er9.

Says me. A FULL 105 Di2 groupset can be purchased for about US$800 if you wait for the special events. Whenever I have compared the cost of a Chinese electronic groupset and then add the additional cost of a crankset, chain cassette etc then it works out slightly more. Plus I have the comfort knowing that everything just works well together.