Author Topic: LTK266-D-SL, race frame, 680g, <800g w/paint & metal parts (M), fits 35mm+ tires  (Read 381994 times)

jo1673

If you're worried about that, dont buy this frame. You wont stop worrying about it, and the data that is available now and will be generated in the future (oriented primarily around marketing aero bikes) will not assuage your concerns. Get this bike despite its chunky head tube, for all the other reasons. I can get in a flat back aero position -- but i could do the same thing on an S5 or a Y1RS that tests like -30W in the tunnel. I just dont care, though. I'm not holding 40+phk in a breakaway; and I'm ok with having to push a little harder or get a little lower when I'm rolling turns in the group ride, for those minutes when i am in the wind at 40+kph. If the marginal gains in aero are an important factor whether for racing or just as an enthusiast, i would probably look elsewhere.
You are probably right. I am sort of aero optimized position wise at the moment, and would probably continue to be so on a different bike. The thing is - I'm not buying an S5 or a Y1RS, not now, not in the foreseeable future. And while I very much believe both those bikes to be highly aero optimized, I remain sceptical to A LOT of other "aero looking" bikes (including probably nearly all current chinese aero bikes with a few exceptions). So for me, of the options I'm currently considering, probably none have seen a wind tunnel, and maybe a few have some basic CFD to back up aero "claims". Thus I'm left wondering what I'm really giving up on if I'm not buying one of the aero super bikes anyways ... (a very meandering and long way to get to the point, apologies).

Sakizashi

I wouldn't buy this bike for aero performance. I also wouldn't buy any of the currently available open molds for aero performance.  I would want to see, at the very least, a measured reduction in frontal area and, at best, some data showing that, at least in simulation, the bike is aero.

The 266 has none of that. Mine is built and functions more as an allroad type bike.

I'm all aboard the wider tire hype train, but currently a bit frustrated with the current lack of understanding of the influence of frame aero drag to total system drag for rider + bike ... In other words, I have fomo over potential watts lost if I buy this frame. To me it seems as if e.g. Tour magazine and their test protocol magnifies the difference between frames, and eyeball aero really doesn't work. I'll gladly leave four watts on the table for a cheap, nice riding and versatile frame, but would I leave ten? Fifteen? Not sure.

Aero testing is still a minefield and I would not expect that to change any time soon.
  • Tour's testing is highly repeatable. Still, it likely overemphasizes higher yaws. Despite their vigorous defense, the lack of a whole body does matter. Still, repeatable results would be nearly impossible with a whole body, as the bikes tested all have different geometries. This is basically as good as it gets for generalized conclusions
  • Zero elevation and velodrome testing have the opposite flaw, the testing only includes relatively shallow yaws; but you can do it yourself pretty cheaply, so you can understand how aero you are, which ultimately is the thing that matters.
  • Aerosticks can help you sort through data and simplify the analysis, but I don't think they get you better results. I believe the Gibli is the most advanced that you can currently buy and allows for some visibility into cross winds (not just that cross winds had an effect on airspeed vs. ground speed). However, it's still not good enough to significantly elevate the utility of this kind of testing above zero elevation or velodrome testing.

I've done the latter two kinds of testing, though my aerostick is on the basic side when it comes to usable functionality, and comparing bikes is a mess. For example, I know my custom, round tube, Ti bike is likely faster for me in most conditions than any other bike I have been lucky enough to demo or begged successfully for significant saddle time with. Those are also not fair comparisons because I got the custom bike to run a position that is not possible on those off-the-shelf bikes. The conclusion that I drew was that position optimization is far more critical than HT depth or a foil-shaped seat-post. Even if you are 10w slower because of a frame, at 48kmh 10w is something a lot of riders can find by narrowing their grip by a couple of CM and keeping elbows in. For many people, this is also less than the difference between a regular helmet and an aero road helmet. Or less than shoe covers, or in some slightly unbelievable cases, aero socks.

Regarding CDA optimization, I mentioned this on another thread that CD optimization is, at its core, a multivariate problem where it seems very possible that a shape that looks aero with deep shapes performs poorly even in comparison to a shallow one. Generally speaking, CD hard enough to optimize that its not easily predictable from person to person. You need to test to see if one helmet or brand of socks is faster than another, specifically for YOU. However, optimizing by reducing A is significantly more straightforward. If you can measure less frontal area, there is a very high chance that a small change, like keeping elbows tucked in, will be faster.

Unsurprisingly, reducing A is where newer Chinese frames like the Incolor Intropy and Evolve Cima have focused, given their relative lack of access to tunnel testing. The aero drag reduction achieved with aero frames is a real benefit for the few frames where it has been measured and proven, but in terms of cost per watt, an OSPW from Ceramicspeed seems like a bargain as these frames are around 2.5-3x the price of the 266.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2025, 04:13:11 PM by Sakizashi »

Dell

Is this frame's frontal area even that big? The head tube doesn't really look too bad in the pictures in this thread and the fork doesn't seem to be very big, either. Sure, the SC-R55 and the XMCS aero frames are probably a bit thinner, but is the 266 really that much of a brick?

contraptions

The fork does /look/ relatively unaerodynamic: it's goes from ~15x25 to ~25x47.  I.e. purely on absolutel frontal area and on aspect ratio it's very stumpy.

I would imagine the fork is by far the dominant factor on a frameset's overall drag, particularly with bottles and legs.  Has anyone seen anything attempting to quantify this?  I was always quite tempted to swap a propel fork onto my TCR as new ones frequently come up on ebay but couldn't figure out whether it would physically fit.

That said, per others' comments I think it's highly unlikely to be a meaningful difference in the grand scheme of things.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2025, 04:09:25 PM by contraptions »

jo1673

Thanks for the long and detailed answer @Sakizashi, very good content. I'm not really considering this frame for its aero properties - I'm looking for a fun bike which scores good enough on progressive geometry and passable on "aero". There's just no way I'm paying $4000 or more for a frameset with actual aero credentials. My upper limit is more like $1500, so not many options that are not direct-from-China out there.

klrdd

I'm attaching a photo of the bike from the front. Sorry for the wonky lighting and slightly off kilter angle.
Keep in mind these tires are 35mm, 36mm+ WAM. Bars are the Tavelo Avros in a 38cm width, not the Longtengs.
Hope this clears up impressions about what the front-end looks like head-on when built up.

Is this frame's frontal area even that big? The head tube doesn't really look too bad in the pictures in this thread and the fork doesn't seem to be very big, either. Sure, the SC-R55 and the XMCS aero frames are probably a bit thinner, but is the 266 really that much of a brick?

The fork does /look/ relatively unaerodynamic: it's goes from ~15x25 to ~25x47.  I.e. purely on absolutel frontal area and on aspect ratio it's very stumpy.


jo1673

I'm attaching a photo of the bike from the front. Sorry for the wonky lighting and slightly off kilter angle.
Keep in mind these tires are 35mm, 36mm+ WAM. Bars are the Tavelo Avros in a 38cm width, not the Longtengs.
Hope this clears up impressions about what the front-end looks like head-on when built up.
Doesn't look too bad to be honest, but I'm no expert.

Now I just need to find a compelling tyre > 34 mm wide ...

klrdd

Doesn't look too bad to be honest, but I'm no expert.

Now I just need to find a compelling tyre > 34 mm wide ...

I think it looks just fine! It would be interesting to see this frame side-by-side with the VB-R-368 (front view of that frame: https://ueeshop.ly200-cdn.com/u_file/UPBA/UPBA916/2509/29/products/roadaerobikeframe2.jpg )

RE: Tires:

Michelin Pro 5 TLR 35mm -- https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/cx-gravel-reviews/michelin-pro-5-35 -- that's what I'm running.

Rolling resistance is competitive (within <2W of GP5k TR in 32mm www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/cx-gravel-reviews/continental-grand-prix-5000-s-tr-32 .
Drawback is instead in weight (400g per tire for the Michelin 35mm vs 310g for the GP5k 32mm). The Michelin Pro5 outperform the GP5K All Season in 35mm in weight and rolling resistance but are far worse in puncture protection

Down the line I plan to get another wheelset and have one ultralight set with 32mm road race tires and my current wheels with 35mm race gravel tires. Keen on trying these out: https://www.schwalbetires.com/Schwalbe-G-One-RS-PRO-11654395.01 -- BRR hasn't tested yet.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2025, 06:27:25 AM by klrdd »

jamez

I'm attaching a photo of the bike from the front. Sorry for the wonky lighting and slightly off kilter angle.
Keep in mind these tires are 35mm, 36mm+ WAM.

How much space is it on the sides of the tire in the fork? Looks like only 4-5mm on that photo?
In that case fork has less tire clearance than frame in the back?
Your bike looks great btw.  I think I also want a green one like that 8)

klrdd

How much space is it on the sides of the tire in the fork? Looks like only 4-5mm on that photo?
In that case fork has less tire clearance than frame in the back?
Your bike looks great btw.  I think I also want a green one like that 8)

The earlier photo's wonky angle may have been a little deceptive. Attached see a photo with a 6mm hex key at the spot on the sides of the tire with the least clearance. This is a 35mm specificed width tire on 24mm internal width rims. The tire likely measures above 35mm, and it never has less than 6mm of clearance at any point.

And thanks! The green is nice  8)

Edit: I'm not sure precisely what width the tire is measuring here so changing to not claim more clearance than I'm totally sure of.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2025, 06:11:13 PM by klrdd »

Sakizashi

The fork has pretty much the exact clearance as the rear. This bike does not have ample fork clearance like the LCR018-D, but the overall chain stay measurements and measured clearances are about the same. You can fit a 38mm WAM slick tire on this frame and still meet the 4mm standard specified for "racing bikes" in ISO4210. If you're planning to ride this bike a bit off-road like I do, a 35mm marked tire is probably as wide as you want to go.

The photos earlier in the thread showing the 32mm GP5K w/ 8mm clearance all around is using a rim that is 25mm IW. The clearance on that tire was also the same in the fork.

jamez

thanks both you guys...
I was thinking about using it occasionally with some 38mm WAM (measured on knobs) studded winter tires. Sounds like they should just fit  :)

benquick

Would someone who owns the frame be so kind and measure the seatpost dimensions for me? The picture of the seatpost profile from below would also be helpful. I am seriously considering buying this frame, but when I see the images of the stock seatpost clamp rubber cover I find it really low-quality looking. I am wondering if I can find something of better quality or a better fit on AliExpress instead of sourcing the rubber cover from LongTeng directly.

Thanks to anyone who will take the time.

Sakizashi

The Seatpost is 30.3mm at the widest and 29.8mm long. Ive also sized some of the different parts of the wedge area in the attached photo.

Overall, the wedge sits like 2.5-3mm down into the hole and not flush, This is a pretty silly oversight from LTK, though Ive been riding my frame without the rubber cover and its fine.

That said, ive been working on a replacement 3d Printed cover, but I still dont have the hang of designing for these kinds of things that are part intended to be stretched and part intended to be compressed out of TPU. I attached an STL file (not sure why the step upload is failing) with my current design that I have not yet printed. These are $3.00/print at a MOQ of 15 and dropping to $2.50 at 20. If I do a run of these, i will have plenty of extras.

benquick

Cool, thanks.

I have not ordered the frame yet, but for anyone eager to find a better cover this might work: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005857461865.html. D-fuse seatpost shape on Giant Defy seems to have a very similar shape and diameter to the LTK's one, so the rubber cover could maybe fit. That being said, I doubt the seatpost itself would work with LTK266-D-SL, but maybe someone has one at home and can try.

Overall, I find it really interesting that someone designed a proprietary seatpost like this in the first place, that is actually wider than the standard 27mm round one, is not particularly aero, and limits the offset options to whatever a single manufacturer produces. And it is also not like LongTeng are trying to earn extra money by selling this as an extra. I am trying to get into the head of the company that designed this frame as I don't understand what could possibly be the motivation to design a new non-standard seatpost that does not make extra money, neither it solves any problem that other designs have.