Long Teng / Mondince aero frame FM126

[Dark17]

Shame many people wanted to buy, but decided to wait until the last minute. Let that be a lesson to us all for next indiegogo’s…

Personally I’m interested in the frame once it’s available via the normal channels next hear. Still hope they’ll make it.

They might be also dependent on how many people/brands will buy this frame on TBW. So even if we have the numbers, if there is no customers in TBW then it would just be postponed. Jack replied to me and said that they will release this frame next year.

[Wil]

100% sure too for size 61

Had this response from Jack today : "We will not open this model this year. We will do it next year. I will keep you updated. Sorry for this. "

[kungie]

What a bummer. I was 95% for a 58. Already have the money aside, but one of the main drawing factors was the early discount. Starting to look at alternate options for a fast road bike with 32 or 35mm clearance.

[jovivamo]

It's a shame my intention was to buy one just when I read that it was not going to be made.

[Vasegaard]

I've been chatting with Jack and at the moment they expect for it to be ready in June. They are considering making the molds bicoque or not monocoque to decrease the cost.
If they continue with monocoque one piece holding the price might be 500 usd for normal weight and 650 for ultralight and then 150 usd for shipping (roughly)

This is basically the same price as it would be on indiegogo.

[strayan_rice_farmer]

I've been chatting with Jack and at the moment they expect for it to be ready in June. They are considering making the molds bicoque or not monocoque to decrease the cost.
If they continue with monocoque one piece holding the price might be 500 usd for normal weight and 650 for ultralight and then 150 usd for shipping (roughly)

This is basically the same price as it would be on indiegogo.

Hell that would be a steal for Ultralight pricing.
I'd happily pay more than that for a monocoque High fibre frame.
(Don't tell them that tho) 😂🤫

[Sakizashi]

The term bicoque was that used by Mondinice? I know things can get lost in translation, but it’s a common error on this forum to think that monocoque means single piece, rather than a structural term on which indicates that the skin is the single structural element vs. unibody where skin and frame are elements are unified but still distinguishable. Its a red flag IMO for someone in the industry, close to the process of molding to make this mistake.
 
The bike industry has tons of problems—but the most critical one is that there are too many unique SKUs out there and not enough common parts. This just kills economics. Meanwhile, particularly the auto industry gets criticism from the opposite direction. Not enough uniqueness.

Regarding the current environment. I get the sense it’s really bad in China for the bike industry and it seems like its going to get worse before it gets better. That said, some of this is reap what you sow. The western bike companies have been locked into this notion of better design, but thats slowly eroded to the point where it feels like only the very top end frames have something unique going on. On the other side, the chinese brands that used to compete on price are finding that standing up their own brands is expensive.

It’s way too much to expect an Indigogo project to fix the issues with the industry, but this bike was never likely to actually be aero or bend the cost curve in a meaningful way. Unfortunately rather than these bikes “beating” western counterparts, we are more likely to see options like these become rare as brands like Evolve, Pearmeants, and QuickPro become the direct sales outlets for these factories.

[meysow]

Selling bikes at those insane price mostly because they can. They wouldn't show these crazy prices if there was no bike bro buying it to look cool at the Cafe. As we can observe, people buying bikes are ok paying a (huge) premium for the brand.

The thing is, you can't brag at the Sunday rides with a Chinese frame (hence why even on this forum, peeps will put decals of western brands on fake frame).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying this comportment, as I make my objective to have the best quality/price ratio, and would be much more proud of an unbranded Chinese bike that would have the same features as a 10k$ one.

That's the whole interest of this forum as together we are getting to know the market better, and by trial and errors we are identifying the trusted OEM, and maybe in several years, just like the wheels, OEM frames will be recognized more an more, as a real alternative to the western brands, making them lower their price or loose customers ?

[Vasegaard]

The term bicoque was that used by Mondinice? I know things can get lost in translation, but it’s a common error on this forum to think that monocoque means single piece, rather than a structural term on which indicates that the skin is the single structural element vs. unibody where skin and frame are elements are unified but still distinguishable. Its a red flag IMO for someone in the industry, close to the process of molding to make this mistake.
 
The bike industry has tons of problems—but the most critical one is that there are too many unique SKUs out there and not enough common parts. This just kills economics. Meanwhile, particularly the auto industry gets criticism from the opposite direction. Not enough uniqueness.

Regarding the current environment. I get the sense it’s really bad in China for the bike industry and it seems like its going to get worse before it gets better. That said, some of this is reap what you sow. The western bike companies have been locked into this notion of better design, but thats slowly eroded to the point where it feels like only the very top end frames have something unique going on. On the other side, the chinese brands that used to compete on price are finding that standing up their own brands is expensive.

It’s way too much to expect an Indigogo project to fix the issues with the industry, but this bike was never likely to actually be aero or bend the cost curve in a meaningful way. Unfortunately rather than these bikes “beating” western counterparts, we are more likely to see options like these become rare as brands like Evolve, Pearmeants, and QuickPro become the direct sales outlets for these factories.

Bicoque is not used by Jack from Mondince, but rather by me. Jack said that they may glue the parts together instead of monocoque "not all in one monocoque tech". Apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Sakizashi]

Selling bikes at those insane price mostly because they can. They wouldn't show these crazy prices if there was no bike bro buying it to look cool at the Cafe. As we can observe, people buying bikes are ok paying a (huge) premium for the brand.

No offense intended, but this is an ill-informed and extremely entitled view on this forum. Try building a brand to sell these frames and see where your costs end up. They will be more than Tideace or Pemeants for these Long Teng frames. By the time you give margins to the factories, to bike shops etc, brands like Specialized aren't making that much and their spending on racing isnt the lavish expense people think.

Take a $600 frame assume that you can negotiate a volume discount selling 33 frames a month of 25%. Your break even for even a web based d2c type operation is probably well over $1000/frameset not including paying yourself or shops space. That doesnt include metal parts like Mondinice was doing here. Now think about the volume of frames they needed to cover the cost of the mold that they were looking to raise via Indigogo at their stated prices. What was that 400 frames? So, if you want to pay yourself, have liability insurance, shop space, etc, based in a western country you probably cant sell these frames for less than $1,500 before shipping, and the cost of things like thru axles, branded paint, etc. This assumes a lean one person shop. Throw in some money for a second employee, so social media ads, going to trade shows etc, and the prices these Chinese brands are charging starts to seem pretty darn fair just for the brand and factory to pay off a mold in a year. This is a long way from getting rich and charging prices detached from their operating expenses.

Then add 35-50% margin to be split between a distributor and your LBS and you get Specialized prices. After all they need to get paid for buying the product and the cost of capital required to hold the inventory.

We should be grateful that this site exists and we can order direct at the prices we pay. That LTK are even making one of their premium products available for direct purchase at their prices is also rare. What Peter and Justin of XMCS and Speeder, respectively sell their stuff to us for is also a fantastic deal, and we are lucky that they do it unlike the companies that have gone fully B2B.

[Vasegaard]

Sakizashi.
When you mention Long Tengs premium products are you referring to LTK 266 SL?

[meysow]

I can't argue they have costs.

No offense either, but I would love your analysis on why factor sells ostro at 6500$ while you can buy a replica that seems close to the real thing at 750$. We are talking a 1/10th of the price there.

 
Though we essentially say the same thing, let's celebrate this forum giving us access to bike part priced according to the fundamentals they rely on (quality, materials used, etc...), not some marketing or some HR salary or whatever you feel like

[Sakizashi]

I can't argue they have costs.

No offense either, but I would love your analysis on why factor sells ostro at 6500$ while you can buy a replica that seems close to the real thing at 750$. We are talking a 1/10th of the price there.

 
Though we essentially say the same thing, let's celebrate this forum giving us access to bike part priced according to the fundamentals they rely on (quality, materials used, etc...), not some marketing or some HR salary or whatever you feel like

I hope $750 is the shipped cost because that is still more expensive than most open mold frames. As for why it’s less than Factor. They probably only pay $200-$300 to their factory for the knockoff because they are probably made with cheaper materials. The weights of the frame support this. The major associated cost is probably only the physical mold and painting.

Meanwhile Factor is putting like $400 of MATERIALS into the frames. I did a calculation a while back based on numbers from an interview with Factor’s founder and figured that their frames if truely sold D2C like Seka would be closer to $3500-4000 for the bare frameset which is still pretty expensive, but the factory then run really is one of the highest end in China AFAIK.

Sakizashi.
When you mention Long Tengs premium products are you referring to LTK 266 SL?

Yes. I think it qualifies. It’s probably a generation old compared to the latest and greatest like the Scott Addict RC Ultimate or the new Cervelo R5, but it’s a heck of a bike. Build it up with an FSA No 55 headset and Deda Superbox stem in the 140–160mm length paired with a bikedoc bar. Wear a good skinsuit, aero road helmet, etc.; and if you can hold that position, I would bet an average height person on a size 54 could get to sub 0.26 CDA. Compare that against a Fauxtro with a more traditional setup costing you more, being heavier, and leaving you with a 0.32 or smth CDA.

[toxin]

Also it's a lot cheaper to make a replica when all of your design work is a 3d scan and you don't really care if your product puts someone in the hospital

[meysow]

Yeah I think some people in the ostro Vam thread payed around 750$, or a bit more, shipped (not 100% sure). Still expensive but the inside of the frame is probably cleaner than a few OEM. (Cf oralmaster's pics)

Also, to go along with Serge's analogy, I still don't get why a bike would cost the same price as a motorbike. Those companies supports the same costs you mentioned (if not more considering a 200kg+ motorbike require a lot more materials, engineering, safety concerns, even electronics and so on). There is a price gouging, just look at the difference of price from the 105di2 at launch and now, it's drastically lower and they still prolly make margin on it (both Shimano and reseller)

Also it's a lot cheaper to make a replica when all of your design work is a 3d scan and you don't really care if your product puts someone in the hospital

True,  the peace of mind is priced, or let's put it the other way around, you get cheaper frame gambling with your life, that's why I'm more inclined buying from a reputable OEM than a company producing fakes. (Even though there are some accidents with big brands too, but that's another topic)

This why it's sad that this project didn't come (yet?) to life. Not having the budget to support the campaign or buy a frame now, but when I do I would have considered this frame