Thoughts on modern frame geometry trends? Steep seat tubes? High stack?

[hubba]

All I really and truly want is for my knees to track straight.

Stability starts from the feet. I would look into proper fitting shoes and arch support . Also your current shoes might not let you adjust the cleat far enough back especially if they're too big. I use the midfoot cycling adapter and I like it. I only need a little more adjustment than my Lakes allow but it makes all the difference.

One of the most common reasons for knee pain is having the cleats too far forward. If the shoes are not right no amount of fiddling with the rest of the bike fit will help much.

Your position is very long I would definitely look into shorter cranks. My legs are much longer than yours and I like 165s much more than 170. Combined with moving the cleats back your power phase / torque when pedalling won't even change.

Strength training definitely, next fall / winter is the perfect time to start and never stop. It will take some time to make it work for you with cycling but it's so worth it. As you've done it before strength will come back quicker.

I'm no expert these are just the things that have helped me over the years with knee pain and foot tracking. I almost gave up cycling when I started because of never ending knee pain cycle.

[pavlo.k]

I didn't read through the entire thread so I'll just reply to the first message.
I am totally on board with higher stack, steeper STA and no offset.
As a taller rider I was always struggling to get my saddle forward far enough. I have apretty long legs and my saddle is always very hight up. The problem is, the higher your saddle is the more it moves back behind the bb and slacker sta only makes it worse. I actually run a positive offset on my gravel bike currently. Higher stack also solves another one of the problems which is a massive saddle to bar drop i usually have.

[Takiyaki]

My only concern with the high stack + steep STA + no offset is ride quality. Seat + chainstays and tire size will have to handle the bulk of rear compliance as the seatpost is basically out of the equation. I have heard good things about the Voicevelo Echo in that regard

[Sakizashi]

Stability starts from the feet. I would look into proper fitting shoes and arch support . Also your current shoes might not let you adjust the cleat far enough back especially if they're too big. I use the midfoot cycling adapter and I like it. I only need a little more adjustment than my Lakes allow but it makes all the difference.

One of the most common reasons for knee pain is having the cleats too far forward. If the shoes are not right no amount of fiddling with the rest of the bike fit will help much.

Complications like this are one of the reasons why it’s good to see a good bike fitter.

Midfoot has huge benefits for triatheletes because it reduces the role of the calf which you need to run. It also reduces instability which can lead to pain on the front of the knee / kneecap as you try and stabilize the lower leg from the upper. A fitter might think this is a good idea.

On the other hand, the calf plays a really important role in helping spread out the loads on the knee during the pedal stroke more, so if cycling is your primary form of exercise, in the long term you are under developing your calves which are critical to preventing long term knee injury. An ortho is going to worry about this.

Hip or knee impingements are also a reason why a knee might not track straight as they can affect movement particularly a the top of the pedal stroke. Figuring out which is something probably best done by a physio during a bike fit, but also is something that could be figured out during a visit to PT for knee pain, etc.

A great fitter is going to put all these pieces together, balancing what you do on the bike vs. off of it.

[hubba]

Yeah it's complicated going to a bike fitter is always the best option. As for cleats I'm not advocating going full midfoot. Some shoes even in the most backward cleat position the pedal axle is barely under the ball of the foot and pretty much every fitter agrees it should be behind it.

[cnishikigi1]

Patrick, I've seen your videos and know that your proportions are not common. It's true riders with longer legs typically need more setback. However, I do believe you can benefit from this new style fit from everyone else. The point is open up your hip so that you could do the sphinx position for longer without interfering with your power ouput.

The immediate consequence of a steeper seat angle is that your weight is shifted forwards, so the front centre has to increase so that you don't lose grip on rear wheel or tip over in extreme cases. A longer frame reach can avoid having to use a stem too long as to ruin the steering handling. As for the stack, it really depends on the rider's proportions. You are among the ones that don't need additional stack at all. For those who do, they could always achieve an ideal stack with a riser, which is why high stack is not really mandatory for this fit.

[patliean1]

Such a fascinating conversation. I really do appreciate all of you chiming in. Thank you!

This is my current bike and fit that I use for my harder efforts. 130mm stem because the Tavelo Arow in a size 540 (size 56 equivalent) has a reach of 399mm. I've done everything on this bike from crit races, 6 hour Z2 rides, sustained climbing efforts, and everything indoor training related.

No knee or back pain. It just "works" for me. But that doesn't mean this is my ideal bike fit especially with gains to be hand in the stability department. I tried using a sizing up to a size 58 Ventum NS1 last year. And I couldn't get the front end low enough. I like to be super low in the drops for my faster group rides.

So I guess the question moving forward is - What frames out there have a longer reach and front center without adding too much stack? I'm not looking to be faster aerodynamically. Being a breakaway rider is not my skill. But if there are watts to be had more efficiently...awesome.

[Sakizashi]

Right now, probably the lowest cost, purpose built platform for this is probably the Ridley Noah Fast 3.0. I felt like there was a rumor of a Seka but it hasn’t shown up yet. Maybe Tavelos 2nd gen Arow will closer?

In terms of what you might have: The Velobuild 368 might be an OK platform to experiment. The other one would be the Quick Pro Er:One if it’s an XL and you are willing to give it a try.

Rather than start with short cranks. I would keep your 170s for now. If it’s the Quick Pro you probably would want the zero offset post if you dont have it.

If it were me, I would do the activity described below:

—-

Set the bike up on the trainer and set up two video feeds, one in front and one to the side. Measure your saddle to bar distance.

Then just move the saddle forward in “coarse” adjustments of 10mm to see if you can get rid of the knee movement. If that works, then move the saddle up like 20-25mm, enough to make the pedal stroke a little choppy. Slowly in 5mm increments move it down. Note where it comes smooth again.  Continues to slowly move it down until the knee movement returns. Then back up 5mm. Note the position. Move the saddle forward 10mm and repeat until you run out of rail of it just feels strange continuing to move it forward.

You should now have a range of saddle positions that work for you. If nothing works then you definitely should try shorter cranks.

Try out a range of these positions in and out of the saddle, sprinting / sitting back down,  climbing etc. Find the one that feels the most natural and see if you can get the same saddle to bar distance with an available stem and bar. IF you cant then, try a combo that works.

As i get older and because of injuries from when I was young, I increasingly find that the lower positions are better as long as they dont cause other issues.

[toxin]

Acording to PP Joe, there is a 76° STA bike coming sometime "before the end of the year".

[Dark17]

Even steeper than v5rs wtf

[hubba]

It might be just the pic but the saddle height looks way too high. Also if you're not already using Shimano +4mm axle pedals I strongly recommend them for us larger riders.

[Dareios]

Such a fascinating conversation. I really do appreciate all of you chiming in. Thank you!

This is my current bike and fit that I use for my harder efforts. 130mm stem because the Tavelo Arow in a size 540 (size 56 equivalent) has a reach of 399mm. I've done everything on this bike from crit races, 6 hour Z2 rides, sustained climbing efforts, and everything indoor training related.

No knee or back pain. It just "works" for me. But that doesn't mean this is my ideal bike fit especially with gains to be hand in the stability department. I tried using a sizing up to a size 58 Ventum NS1 last year. And I couldn't get the front end low enough. I like to be super low in the drops for my faster group rides.

So I guess the question moving forward is - What frames out there have a longer reach and front center without adding too much stack? I'm not looking to be faster aerodynamically. Being a breakaway rider is not my skill. But if there are watts to be had more efficiently...awesome.

The best thing would be if they made the bikes long and low, with a steep Sta, but offered 2 different handlebars, a regular one and one with extra stack gain. I do think brands could solve a lot of problems by just diversifying the handlebar options instead of increasing the number of bikes.

[Dark17]

Such a fascinating conversation. I really do appreciate all of you chiming in. Thank you!

This is my current bike and fit that I use for my harder efforts. 130mm stem because the Tavelo Arow in a size 540 (size 56 equivalent) has a reach of 399mm. I've done everything on this bike from crit races, 6 hour Z2 rides, sustained climbing efforts, and everything indoor training related.

No knee or back pain. It just "works" for me. But that doesn't mean this is my ideal bike fit especially with gains to be hand in the stability department. I tried using a sizing up to a size 58 Ventum NS1 last year. And I couldn't get the front end low enough. I like to be super low in the drops for my faster group rides.

So I guess the question moving forward is - What frames out there have a longer reach and front center without adding too much stack? I'm not looking to be faster aerodynamically. Being a breakaway rider is not my skill. But if there are watts to be had more efficiently...awesome.

If there’s no pain whatsoever, I would not change anything to your bike fit as long as it works. Though if you want the most optimal and progressive bike fit, I would really advise to visit a very reputable bike fitter. Not the one who relies on a bike fit system but the one who would understand and assess your body while riding a bike, not the one who relies on machines and angles. Competent bike fitters would also consider the injuries and your bike’s use case and decide on how they will fit you (eg aggressive for racing, comfort for long distance or balanced fit in-between).

The thing with the geometries of the bikes nowadays is they are getting comfortable because of the trend of the stack getting high and sta getting more steeper. This is to open up the hips and get comfortable on an aero position while holding the hoods. Gone are the days that you need to be so low because most of the riders would want to have a sustainable and comfortable while on aero position rather than getting more low and aero while having many kinds of pain.

[patliean1]

Not the one who relies on a bike fit system but the one who would understand and assess your body while riding a bike, not the one who relies on machines and angles. Competent bike fitters would also consider the injuries and your bike’s use case and decide on how they will fit you (eg aggressive for racing, comfort for long distance or balanced fit in-between).

Last season I won a raffle through my team for a $350 RUTUL fitting at our local Specialized shop. The fitter is an avid rider himself and standup gentlemen. All the machines, lasers, and cameras were cool, but in the end I didn't feel like this was the solution I was looking for. I ultimately ended up going mostly back to my original fit.

I'll ask around to find a fitter that understand the goals we're trying to achieve. And perhaps I can then articulate better. Thanks again everyone.

[Takiyaki]

One place to look for specific geometry is Geometry Geeks. I forget what you need to do to get the "advanced search" access but that basically lets you plug in whatever parameters you are looking for.

https://geometrygeeks.bike/advanced-search/