Thoughts on modern frame geometry trends? Steep seat tubes? High stack?

[Dark17]

Last season I won a raffle through my team for a $350 RUTUL fitting at our local Specialized shop. The fitter is an avid rider himself and standup gentlemen. All the machines, lasers, and cameras were cool, but in the end I didn't feel like this was the solution I was looking for. I ultimately ended up going mostly back to my original fit.

I'll ask around to find a fitter that understand the goals we're trying to achieve. And perhaps I can then articulate better. Thanks again everyone.

I can recommend you Brian McGuian as he is the closest Steve Hogg certified bike fitter around you. (Same as Neill Stanbury from RCA), though you really need to commit your time for this.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/fitters/brian-mcguigan/#1552925076610-729e5b36-82d8

Other options would be Colby Pearce and Jerry Gerlich. Or Chris Balser, though not one of Steve Hogg guys but a really good fitter.

[srf0638]

Colby Pearce

If his podcast is any guide, he probably wouldn't put you in a "modern/progressive fit", although of course that may be the right decision for your overall riding comfort and performance anyway.

[Sakizashi]

I think the big question folks need to answer is why they want to go for a longer, more "modern" fit in the first place. It's not a silly philosophical question, but a key consideration that guides the kind of experimentation you do.

For example:

• Be faster. This one is pretty simple but also requires the most work to test. The key is to be more aero without reducing power. Potential validation ideas: If you can do virtual elevation, ideally with an aerostick or wind speed sensor, you can measure aero. If you cant, a proxy is to reduce frontal area, which generally correlates. Go lower, into the bike with a lower saddle position, go longer to reduce back angle, and put the bars where they allow for a 90-degree bend at the minimal back angle. Go test your sprint at 2min and 20 min power to see if you have drop-offs.
• Increase comfort / reduce back injury and pain. This one is harder to validate without the help of a medical / PT professional. At the extreme, the progressive fit seems to transfer the work of keeping you stable from the lower part of your core towards the upper part. I think a lot of people experience new soreness in the back, shoulders, and traps, but also reduced lower back pain.
• Increase comfort / correct pedal stroke, work around impingement issues to reduce knee and hip injuries. Again, harder to validate without the help of a medical / PT professional. Opening the hip angle also allows you to make more choices regarding cleat position and crank length, potentially enabling you to run longer cranks and find a combination that leads to more hip stability / less impingement. This can also help correct knees that swing out of alignment, which can cause overuse-type injuries on one side of the knee. Greater freedom to get the right crank/cleat position might also help address patella-related injuries
• Increased saddle comfort. This is pretty easy to check. Your saddle feels different in a more forward position, and for me, adding weight back onto the hands and legs and taking off the saddle is something that helps, particularly on gravel rides that are >8 hours.
• Improve handling. Some riders have positions that are too far back and might want to move forward to correct their weight distribution, particularly when descending or entering tighter corners without braking. Others may want a less upright position to get lower for more consistent, more reactive handling. This one is pretty easy to roughly validate. Just send it through a corner repeatedly and see if you feel more confident at higher speeds. For some smaller riders, moving the weight too far forward is a drawback of the position, as it requires a bike with a longer front center. Personally, this was the primary motivator for experimenting with new bike geometries.

While there are other reasons, if it's not something you can articulate as above: with a proposed benefit and how you are going to try and check it, it's going to be really hard to convince yourself that a new fit is doing what it should and really difficult to communicate to a fitter why you want to consider a change that is outside of what works--particularly if your fit currently has no pain and allows you to do what you want to do on the bike.

[toxin]

I normally run a full backwards cleat position, but today I moved them 2 mm forward, nothing was changed on the bike. I immediately noticed it was easier to "get over the top of the pedalstroke" and much less constricting in the aero position, this should be because I was able to "drop the heel" more at the top of the pedalstroke. Unfortunately after 40 min of riding I had to stop and slam my cleats back again because I was getting severe hot feet and this was with the extremely stiff sole of a Bont shoe. I have had similar issues in the past but at the time I attributed them to oversized and flexible shoes. After moving the cleats back, I instantly noticed more hip closure in the aero position again, even when I was consciously trying to drop the heel.

So I would say if your interest is being fast, you should definitely at least see if you can get along with a more forward cleat position. Now I'm thinking I might need to look into adapter plates to get my cleats even furter back to see if that can completely eliminate my hot feet problems.

[Sakizashi]

I normally run a full backwards cleat position, but today I moved them 2 mm forward, nothing was changed on the bike. I immediately noticed it was easier to "get over the top of the pedalstroke" and much less constricting in the aero position, this should be because I was able to "drop the heel" more at the top of the pedalstroke. Unfortunately after 40 min of riding I had to stop and slam my cleats back again because I was getting severe hot feet and this was with the extremely stiff sole of a Bont shoe. I have had similar issues in the past but at the time I attributed them to oversized and flexible shoes. After moving the cleats back, I instantly noticed more hip closure in the aero position again, even when I was consciously trying to drop the heel.

So I would say if your interest is being fast, you should definitely at least see if you can get along with a more forward cleat position. Now I'm thinking I might need to look into adapter plates to get my cleats even furter back to see if that can completely eliminate my hot feet problems.

I would also play around with inserts a bit if you aren't using ones fitted to your feet, or at least consider trying different arch support options. The foot does move a little in the shoe, so you still can get pain even with stiff soles.

[toxin]

I have a custom inserts that did fix the sole fit issues I had at the start. The only problem with it is that it's not overly grippy, nowhere near as the stock Bont insert which is great at this, so I have to tighten the upper quite a bit. Gluing a thin layer of sandpaper-scuffed EVA foam to imitate the surface of the stock insert is the best Idea I've come up with, but I just can't get around to figuring out if there's a particular type of EVA foam I should use and actually doing it

[patliean1]

I bought new shoes earlier this week. First ride with them was yesterday.

For context, my previous shoe setup was a bit of a mess. Not only was I using internal wedges for pronation as determined by my bike fitters, but I also had 3rd party insoles to support my ultra flat feet. And on top of all this I also needed a 2mm cleat shim on my right shoe since my right leg is shorter than the left.

As an experiment for the new shoes yesterday I simply just installed the new cleats in a rather neutral position. While I did use the same internal wedges, I opted to just use the default insoles supplied with the shoes. And I did not install the 2mm cleat shim.

Results? After a 2 hour ride that included sprints and VO2 efforts, my knees seemed to actually track a tad better and more symmetrical. No random hot spots on the ball of my right foot either.

I don't really know what to make of all of this. But I will keep validating.
My old shoes were S-Work 7s. The new ones are Supacazz Kazze...which are basically S-Work 7s.

[srf0638]

I immediately noticed it was easier to "get over the top of the pedalstroke" and much less constricting in the aero position,

My impression of the Internet fit consensus (not 100% endorsed, merely mentioning it for discussion) is that this is a sign of cranks too long. Of course, it's easier to adjust cleat fore/aft than it is to adjust crank length, but then again if cleat fore/aft causes foot pain and you have to start screwing around with custom insoles, etc., it may be a wash.

[toxin]

I do not have a general crank length/hip closure issue. The above was observed in a position with more forward pelvic rotation than you're likely to see from 99% of starters of a WT TT. I do intend on shortening my crank length some time in the future to hopefully make that position at least somewhat sustainable, but I'm not currently in a rush, as what most would consider an aggressive position is still relatively unimpinged for me.

[Dark17]

ultra flat feet.

Have you tried fixing your flat feet?

[patliean1]

Sorry if this has been explained before...

But what is the purpose of a positive angled stem riser bar versus just having a frameset with a higher stack/headtube?

I'm looking at Jonas Vingegaard's Cervelo S5 for The Tour and I'm trying to understand the logic. Thanks

[Sakizashi]

Sorry if this has been explained before...

But what is the purpose of a positive angled stem riser bar versus just having a frameset with a higher stack/headtube?

I'm looking at Jonas Vingegaard's Cervelo S5 for The Tour and I'm trying to understand the logic. Thanks

In the case of the S5, it reduces frontal area, so it's more aero than using a spacer stack. This is why some aero bikes are designed around this concept.

The bikes with aftermarket riser bars, not sure if there is any real benefit.

[toxin]

Also great (and largely unexplored) potential for streamlining production costs by using a very aggressive stack and reach combo for those that can handle those positions and providing riser cockpits for those that can't, instead of having to burn more money producing a second set of frames with slacker geometry that are potentially less desireable, because the have an "endurance" tag or sth like that.

[Sakizashi]

I am at the point where it seems increasingly likely that my next road bike will be a TT bike conversion using one of the lighter framesets, like the Quick Pro TT One. Between an eccentric BB and a custom riser stem, I should be able to get it dialed perfectly, and after the customizations, it would likely be cost-neutral vs. a fancy Ti bike.

Honestly, it would probably be lighter than my current custom Ti bike too. Of course, I have the ability to design a custom riser stem and the means to get one made now that it's not super expensive to get things 3d printed from Ti and vacuum heat-treated.

[Pistonbroke]

I am at the point where it seems increasingly likely that my next road bike will be a TT bike conversion using one of the lighter framesets, like the Quick Pro TT One. Between an eccentric BB and a custom riser stem, I should be able to get it dialed perfectly, and after the customizations, it would likely be cost-neutral vs. a fancy Ti bike.

Honestly, it would probably be lighter than my current custom Ti bike too. Of course, I have the ability to design a custom riser stem and the means to get one made now that it's not super expensive to get things 3d printed from Ti and vacuum heat-treated.

https://escapecollective.com/q-a-dan-bigham-has-built-a-drop-bar-specialized-shiv-tt/