Thoughts on modern frame geometry trends? Steep seat tubes? High stack?

[Dark17]

I am at the point where it seems increasingly likely that my next road bike will be a TT bike conversion using one of the lighter framesets, like the Quick Pro TT One. Between an eccentric BB and a custom riser stem, I should be able to get it dialed perfectly, and after the customizations, it would likely be cost-neutral vs. a fancy Ti bike.

Honestly, it would probably be lighter than my current custom Ti bike too. Of course, I have the ability to design a custom riser stem and the means to get one made now that it's not super expensive to get things 3d printed from Ti and vacuum heat-treated.

You mean, the Jan Wilhelm van Schipp setup?

[bichler.bua]

The bikes with aftermarket riser bars, not sure if there is any real benefit.

I would like to think the aftermarket riser bars offer an optical benefit.
Slammed stems seem to be desired for look and social media, riser bars help combine aggressive / racy look and decent fit?

[Dareios]

I am at the point where it seems increasingly likely that my next road bike will be a TT bike conversion using one of the lighter framesets, like the Quick Pro TT One. Between an eccentric BB and a custom riser stem, I should be able to get it dialed perfectly, and after the customizations, it would likely be cost-neutral vs. a fancy Ti bike.

Honestly, it would probably be lighter than my current custom Ti bike too. Of course, I have the ability to design a custom riser stem and the means to get one made now that it's not super expensive to get things 3d printed from Ti and vacuum heat-treated.

A Bianchi Aquila RC turned roadbike would be bikeporn.

[Sakizashi]

You mean, the Jan Wilhelm van Schipp setup?

Lol, unlike him, I can size up for length and, using a TT bike, avoid the custom seatpost. I think the stem would be +6 or 0, depending on the frame. Honestly, I might even need a -6 with something like the Avenger Tm7, which wouldn't work anyway since I want 2 water bottles.

https://escapecollective.com/q-a-dan-bigham-has-built-a-drop-bar-specialized-shiv-tt/

Yeah, aware of that bike. I would like to increase compatibility with different bars and stems and avoid going full custom this time around. Money isnt infinite for me and the time lost to waiting for the next batch of something custom when testing configuration changes is a PITA.

[Sakizashi]

I would like to think the aftermarket riser bars offer an optical benefit.
Slammed stems seem to be desired for look and social media, riser bars help combine aggressive / racy look and decent fit?

This was in the context of the rest of the comment, which concerned aero, the reason why the S5 uses that setup.

Nothing against people using whatever they need to make their dream bike work for them. I also have nothing against a spacer or two — the only thing that concerns me is seeing a bike with a long-stem riser bar, saddle setback, and spacers, which is a sign that the rider bought the wrong-size bike.

[Takiyaki]

I would like to think the aftermarket riser bars offer an optical benefit.
Slammed stems seem to be desired for look and social media, riser bars help combine aggressive / racy look and decent fit?

Im planning to run a riser bar on my next build. Im between sizes (54 & 56) and looking to raise my bar position. Riser bar will let me get the stack of a 56 w/the more exposed/comfy seatpost length and lower weight of the 54. I do generally prefer the look of 54 over 56 sized frames but the main driver is fit.

[patliean1]

A few caveats before I get started:

1. My approach to overhauling my bike fit was completely janky and unprofessional. It took 4-5 weeks of frustratingly making small adjustments to finally land on a setup that felt like "Hey I think we are finally on to something..." -  I would not recommend doing this without a professional bike fitter unless you plan to go full idiot mode like myself. There's gonna be days where everything just feels completely wrong. From a time wasted perspective it would have been cheaper to just go see a fitter.

2. Regardless of how I look on the bike from an outsider's perspective, how actually feel on the bike now has been night and day. I expect folks to have a strong opinion against all of this. And that's totally cool. There's always room to learn.

My starting point was based on @hubba @Sakizashi @Dark17 advice from earlier in this thread. In fact, I read Steve Hogg/Brian Mcguigan blog as was recommended. What a fantastic deep dive. The blog post really gave me the foundation and logic to methodically change stuff around. Even if I wasn't perfect.

What did I change?
-Moved my cleats back about 8-10mm. Where the ball of foot is rather than in front of it. 
-Moved my saddle forward around 8-10mm
-Lowered my saddle about 2mm
-Kept the cleat shim on my right leg (leg discrepency)
-Removed my insole wedges from each shoe. (Originally due to foot pronation)

What were the effects?
-Smoother pedal delivery and higher cadence in Zone 3 and above.
-Significantly improved power delivery
-Increased foot stability
-No more occasional or random foot hot spots
-No more inner thighs rubbing the top tube or seatpost
-Hip angle more open
-Sit bones FINALLY sitting sqaure and stable on the saddle. On the exact part of the saddle where the sit bones are supposed to sit. Not the nose   

Overall I'm about 90-95% satisfied with my results. Somehow all of this also fixed my foot pronation issues without needing my insole wedges anymore. Including no more "jumper's knee" fatigue on my left leg from being a one-foot jumper in college - Perhaps having more foot and hip stability improved everything up the stack. Could small tweaks be made? Of course. But being able to feel super planted and stable now on 4-5 hour rides without any small hiccups appearing around hour 3 has been splendid. I really want to thank everyone in here for your help.

Have a great weekend.

[Dark17]

A few caveats before I get started:

1. My approach to overhauling my bike fit was completely janky and unprofessional. It took 4-5 weeks of frustratingly making small adjustments to finally land on a setup that felt like "Hey I think we are finally on to something..." -  I would not recommend doing this without a professional bike fitter unless you plan to go full idiot mode like myself. There's gonna be days where everything just feels completely wrong. From a time wasted perspective it would have been cheaper to just go see a fitter.

That's the point of a good bike fitter. They can solve your issues for a day vs weeks to months of fiddling your own fit. But the thing is, it's worth it and makes you know what your body really wants. I was advised by my bike fitter (which happens to be a Steve Hogg approved) that while I wait for my fit schedule, I should dial my bike to the most comfortable position that I can and it takes lots of time, which is fine.

[jfcb]

@patliean1: so what did you modify at the front? Did you increase your reach / stack, is the distance between saddle and handlebar now different compared to your past set-up? With past setup, I mean mainly your old bikes, rather than the VRT where you were searching from the beginning for a manageable fit.
It would be interesting to hear in more detail about those changes.

[patliean1]

I didn't make any changes to the front end on any of my bikes. Since I had gotten used to sitting on mostly the nose of the saddle all these years, moving my saddle forward kept my overall reach the same. Just that now I'm sitting square on the correct part of the saddle. If that makes sense.

This goes for all the bikes in rotation. Not just the VRT. Though I should mention Peter sent me a 15mm setback post which helped a ton.

I love experimenting and tinkering around. Something about investing in my own sweat equity is fulfilling. Same reason I typically build a complete bike at home across 2 days, when I could just pay a bike shop to do it in 4 hours. I'm rarely crunched for time.

[Sakizashi]

@patliean1 good to hear that you are working through the fit issues.

Re: Progressive fits and where we are at. There are actually 2 separate questions to answer.

1. Are progressive fits the future for elite riders?

I think this is still up in the air. While pro fits are moving further forward, the reason seems less about opening the hip angle than using the forward position to allow for a flatter back. When you hear about fitter who currently work with pros like Colby Pearce talk about using the whole body to move the bike, its not clear how much advantage there is to gain without the use of narrower bars and extending the front end to get more aero. While that kind of fit still remains possible for some of the larger riders on the WT, most of have been locked out of it due to the UCI rules.

This kind of rider typically has elite fitness and physiology. I think “rules” of bike fit like building “stability” up from the feet and minimizing movement dont apply to this rider because even with significant movement, be it ankle flexion or hip rocking, they can sustain that over the length of a 100 mile ride every day for a week.


2. Do progressive fits offer a performance alternative to the short reach, low saddle fits that a lot of fitters have been prescribing to non-elite riders?

With the caveat that a lot of early adopters are among the stronger amateurs (a lot are >4 w/kg, most >3.5), for both short distance intense riding as as well as long events like Unbound—I think the idea of a more open saddle, and a long front end positioned for a 90 degree aero hoods position is proving to be a winner vs. upright endurance fits. Riders who try it are finding it to be both more aero as well as more sustainable.

This rider probably needs to be more mindful of what kind of movement remains consistent and stable a mile 10 of Unbound vs. mile 216–or at 200w vs. 1000w+. This is where the opening the hip angle or having leeway to play with the right combination of saddle setback and height becomes important. Conceptually the progressive fit has always had an advantage because unlike a short reach+upright position, a long reach flat back position offers similar range of adaptable motion while allowing a frame designer resolve issues like being scrunched in the drops, weight balance, etc. that are tradeoffs with most endurance bike frames. Plus you get the benefit of a position that probably likely has a benefit to your CDA that is an order of magnitude greater than you would get from a bike with aero tube shapes.

The caveat here is that the rider needs to be able to hold a close-to-flat back position. IME making that position sustainable requires precise bar placement which also runs counter to trendy things with bikes like one piece bar stems.

These conversations have come a long way.

[MarioCanario]

-Kept the cleat shim on my right leg (leg discrepency)
-Removed my insole wedges from each shoe. (Originally due to foot pronation)

This topic is an interesting read (plus the blogs you recommended), as I’m constantly tinkering with my bike fit myself.

I had one fit done by a “bike fitter” in the past, but that actually left me with more discomfort than before, so I eventually started to go about it myself.

In the past — due to quite a lot of BJJ and tennis — I also developed pretty bad patellar tendinitis on my left side. I saw a doctor and two physios about it. One said I had a ~1–1.5 cm shorter right leg. The other agreed that there was a discrepancy, but thought it was more likely caused by pelvic tilt rather than an actual difference in bone length. I stopped both sports, and with therapy the tendinitis eventually went away, so I never really followed up on it.

@patliean1:
How do you approach the whole cleat shim/wedge height topic? How do you determine how much shim height u actually need? trial and error?
And has your own leg-length discrepancy ever been measured conclusively?

I assume that a discrepancy originating in the femur would have a different impact on bike fit than one originating in the tibia. Is that correct, or am I overthinking this?

[Uberflo]

I didn't make any changes to the front end on any of my bikes. Since I had gotten used to sitting on mostly the nose of the saddle all these years, moving my saddle forward kept my overall reach the same. Just that now I'm sitting square on the correct part of the saddle. If that makes sense.

This goes for all the bikes in rotation. Not just the VRT. Though I should mention Peter sent me a 15mm setback post which helped a ton.

I love experimenting and tinkering around. Something about investing in my own sweat equity is fulfilling. Same reason I typically build a complete bike at home across 2 days, when I could just pay a bike shop to do it in 4 hours. I'm rarely crunched for time.

I had a chat with the AI on seat position optimization and received the same suggestions as you did (lower saddle height, move saddle forward) but also to tilt the saddle by -1,5 to -2,5 degree. Did you take this into consideration?

[patliean1]

Visually my overall bike fit is quite unorthodox. Some would say even retarded. But even when I don't address the handful of disagreeable comments or feel the need to publicly defend my approach, it doesn't mean I'm not taking the criticism into consideration. Because there could be some grains of truth to evaluate later. I'm not infallible. It's what pushed me to demo a size 58 bike for a few months over my typical size 56.

@patliean1:
How do you approach the whole cleat shim/wedge height topic? How do you determine how much shim height u actually need? trial and error?
And has your own leg-length discrepancy ever been measured conclusively?

I assume that a discrepancy originating in the femur would have a different impact on bike fit than one originating in the tibia. Is that correct, or am I overthinking this?

I had full tear achilles tendon surgery on my right leg in 2019 from playing basketball. Part of my rehabilitation and full recovery was low impact sports, in which my doctor recommended cycling. Literally picked up a road bike and never touched a basketball again.
Anyway, My RUTUL fitter last year confirmed that my same right leg was shorter than the other. Could be from the surgery or just a natural discrepancy. Either way I just went conservative with 3mm of shim. Seems to be the sweet spot after trail and error. I can look at photos at myself standing and tell that one leg is shorter than the other.

I had a chat with the AI on seat position optimization and received the same suggestions as you did (lower saddle height, move saddle forward) but also to tilt the saddle by -1,5 to -2,5 degree. Did you take this into consideration?

I run Selle Italia SLR S3 saddles on all of my bikes. Basically I make sure the flat or front half of the saddle is level to ground. But if you were to measure across the entire length of the saddle then yeah it's probably about 2-2.5 derees overall.

Spend time in any Reddit Bike Fitter thread and you'll see that not even two professional fitters can agree. So I chuckle when folks speak in absolute terms about another rider's fit. Perhaps they are plenty comfortable and are still achieving the results they're looking for.

[Uberflo]

Yes, same here for the saddle (level to the ground). But AI recommended to adjust 2/3 of the saddle to -1,5 to -2 degree. I will try it with my indoor bike.