Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: tisun on September 30, 2024, 02:10:34 PM
-
I bought a Fuji Elite SL frameset in 2016 for $1500. Its weight was 695g. Loved that bike. It climbed up hills effortless.
Now, I want to build a new ultra lightweight bike to replace it. I know with today technologies, best climbing bikes aren't all about weight, but it is still a major factor to consider, at least for me.
I was looking at Winspace SLC 3 frame. It checked all my boxes except the price. It's steep for a non-major bike brand. I'm seeking for an alternative. LightCarbon LCR017-D looked good until I saw the cheese-like internal material.
What are your suggestions for a lightweight, stiff, power transfer efficient frame?
-
$1500 in 2016, adjusted for inflation, is $2000 in 2024. Giant is currently offering the TCR frameset $2100 USD.
Lightweight, stiff, power transfer efficient frame (whatever this means), and sold by a major bike brand.
Problem solved.
-
I agree with the comment above. If you can afford go for it.
As regards LC, that's just one sample. Don't judge the brand/model by one example. You have 30 other people who bought it and went perfectly fine. Can happen with big named brands too.
-
Based on people who posted on that thread, the ratio of issues va non issue is definitely not 30:1. More like 5:1.
-
I’d like to piggyback off of the OP and probe the experienced folks thinking and experience further. I’m also really keen to build a lightweight climbing bike (currently strongly considering the ICAN FL1).
I’ve only ever owned western brands (your specialized, cannondales, giants) and never built a bike before but am really drawn by the idea of spending 1/3 on this frameset in comparison to a giant tcr. I’m also somewhat interested in building a bike for first time (what else am I going to do during the cold Canadian winter?) I could afford the tcr but would gladly put the money elsewhere.
So my question here: is the tcr and all that entails (warranty, buy locally, etc) a better value than something like the ICAN or some other direct-from-China climbing frame?
-
How about (if you can stand the branding) Bigrock Sohtea Superlight …?
-
I think someone has done all the research for you already:
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175073 (https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175073)
-
Brands command a premium, for what benefit?
With Giant being the exception (a brand that owns / is the factories), you have factories that make frames for brands, and brands distribute and sell. Each layer needs to eat. The further away from China, the more expensive the layer, and the less relevant (carbon bike market is now so commoditized with all frames looking the same and within 5w of each other). Therefore, the closer to the factory, the better the value & the less bullsh1t.
It is telling that Pinarello has frames made in china and they paint them in Italy. You can get real custom... because of the paint. Factor is the same: their frame looks open mould, but you get to really tune... the paint.
There's something to be said about where the expertise really lies. Take carbon layup. Is it Specialized that's really the expert, or Specialized suppliers? I dont have the answer, but it's important when thinking about light frames: as of now, T700 is ghetto. T800 is the gold standard, most legit carbon things are made with it. And then you go into fancy territory, with T1000, T1100, and increasingly, you see exotic things like M30, M40, and others. As brands brand (ie differentiate), there's also the question of how much a brand is making shit up (what does specialized's Fact carbon actually mean? Ditto with Pinarello's different carbon tiers). T1000 is "known" (rumoured?) to cost about 2x T800, so you will NOT see a frame made with T1000 for $500. If T1000 and $500 are seen on the same page, it means they (at best) INCLUDE T1000 in the frame, but it could be 1% - obviously, that's unregulated, Chinese are known to basically lie, and, maybe most importantly, you can't test it yourself -. The biggest benefit of higher tiers is you can use less of it for the same strength, so frames get lighter.
And so, you're left with the usual questions:
- Do you want to pay extra for a brand? The Chinese market now has brands, including Specialized equivalent brands (ie social media fluff fest). As a westerner, i'd say buying a Chinese brand is the worst choice possible: you pay a premium, but you're not in China, so you can't flex at the cafe your branded bigcock frame that nobody knows, and you can't lean on the bigcock bike shop for help / maintenance / support / warranty / i spent money here please be make me feel important and refer to me as your lordship.
- If you buy a western brand, (1) you (usually) get to rely on your local LBS, (2) you get a frame that's been QCed (questionable truth), (3) and if you buy something high end, you buy a vibe around layup technology, ride properties, the secret sauce that makes it so that when you jump on a specialized, your hair grows back, your biceps get more defined, and the ladies look at you like "ooh myyyy". (3) goes back to my point above on who actually has the layup know how.
So, a rational actor will wonder: how much more over an equivalent spec (features & weight) OEM frame am i willing to spend to benefit from 1-2-3?
- If you buy an OEM frame, you have to trust that (A) the factory / broker actually exists (people on this forum still using paypal insurance scheme to send money to Farsports is money down the drain, as far as i'm concerned), (B) they will ship you what you ordered (when Airwolf on Aliexpress sells you a frame for 12 dollars made of full T1100, spoiler alert, they're lying), (C) they will ship you a frame that's not a dog, and that's been QCed enough (Light carbon shipping cheese, Tavelo with undersized BBs whose shells crack during install, and all the horror stories you can find on here with Airwolf, tantan, workswell, and so on).
- On (C), because a seller will usually tell you not to worry, then ship you swiss cheese anyway, you have to factor in an element of risk: more often than not, seller A (after careful consideration on your part to choose that seller) will ship good frames, but occasionally, they will fuck up, at which point you need to be qualified enough to understand where they fucked up, and complain. Also, let's be honest, in many instances, people complaining about frames is USER ERROR, or such trivial niggles that the factory should indeed ignore the noises you make. And you have to complain loud enough, to a seller that is honest enough / has enough of an incentive to listen and help.
And so, this forum is invaluable in helping identify (a) where the value is, (b) good sellers, (c) and bad ones.
For light frames, it depends on what you deem light (and what tyre clearance you need). A lot of 2024 frames are around or below 1000g in Medium (starting with the Velobuild 268, which really is the standard of value). SP Cycle claims a 880g frame (30C, R025-SL), Yishun has an endurance frame at 900g, Long Teng claims their chonky boy 301 is 980g. I havent mapped out the lighter side of the market, because i'm over 80kg myself, but i would say: reach out to OEM with a good reputation on this forum, ideally order 2 frames and build 1 for a friend (or more), as you will command better care and attention, ask questions, accept the risk that no matter what you do, you may have problems to solve, but deal with someone who will more likely than not agree to help you rather than ghost you, and have fun.
Or buy a Giant TCR, ofc, once you've swallowed the upfront cost, rarely do people regret buying a branded frame.
Notes:
- on light carbon, recent precedents make them look bad (1 example of awful cheese carbon, 1 example of a down tube you could deform by hand, off the top of my head, but they generally have great reputation, and they're linked to Yishun (if i'm not mistaken), which also has great reputation.
- on tantan, plenty of people report horror stories, but they also OEM for big brands, and they are huge (assuming a constant error rate, the bigger you are, the more errors). As such, and because perfection is an ideal, nor a reality, they're probably still a good counterpart.
- Airwolf has an error rate so high it makes errors part of who they are, so you probably dont want to buy frames from them. But i've been buying cockpits from them, and i love their cockpits. So even that is more nuanced than just "avoid airwolf"
What do i know? I've been riding bikes for a long time, most of my friends ride bikes and many of them are champions, and i've built 9 chinese bikes in the last 2y.
These opinions are my own and as a matter of course, i tend to agree with what i say, which doesn't make it truth.
-
Serge, you must have killed in in philosophy classes!
-
$1500 in 2016, adjusted for inflation, is $2000 in 2024. Giant is currently offering the TCR frameset $2100 USD.
Lightweight, stiff, power transfer efficient frame (whatever this means), and sold by a major bike brand.
Problem solved.
Patrick, thanks for the recommendation, but that's also the dilemma/problem: I can easily avoid buying Chinese brand names by just pumping my budget a little more and get a Cervelo Soloist or Giant TCR frame. is there a more affordable way to achieve the same goal? Patrick, btw, I love your review of Winspace SLC 3 YT video, didn't know that was you though, haha.
Serge_K, wow, what a post, great thanks. I weigh 145 lbs, so my preference is always ultra light bike. I'm building my sub 22 lbs XC mtb for under $4k right now. If I can build a sub 15 lbs road biike, that would be paradise for me. The key here is I won't break my bank in the process.
-
I say just get a mid-level frameset that's between 700-800g and an ultra lightweight wheelset for like 1100g or less. That's one area where the cost/weight ratio wins out over mainstream brands. For routine climbers, I almost feel like the wheelset is more important. To me a lot of the crit bro science like wider tires, etc. doesn't really translate well once the elevation gets steeper.
-
- On (C), because a seller will usually tell you not to worry, then ship you swiss cheese anyway, you have to factor in an element of risk:
This is gonna be the reoccurring joke for 2025. Same way PLA was calling the Elves Falath Evo a "LARP of a bike." ;D
"Did I receive a Hambini special?" No.
"Did I receive the swiss cheese special instead?" Yes.
-
If weight is your goal and you don’t mind exposed cabling, for $2k-$2.2K you should be able to find an Aethos or even a 2024 TCR Advanced SL. I think both of these would build up lighter than any of the Chinese brand or open mold frames except for the BigRock Sothea Team, which according, to Panda Podium, about the same weight as the Aethos in a size 56 as well as similar priced—though you would get internal cable routing. I think stepping down to something like the ICAN FL1 could make sense too as it would add 150-200g? But would save over $1K USD. If I had the money, I probably would get one of the branded frames, unless the difference freed up budget for nicer wheels.
The wheels I have my eye on are the Light Bicycle Ar25 built with Nonplus Hubs and Alpine Hyperlight Aero spokes. For ~$1600 its a 900g wheelset, so probably a better place to spend money to save weight than the frame.
If you also look carefully you should be able to find an Ekar group relatively cheap. Shifters and RD were going for ~$200 during the pros closet sale and some of those are bound to be flipped on ebay soon, so that could be a cost effective way to save some weight as those are pretty light groups, only ~100g heavier than the lightest group i know of, 11spd DA Di2.
Edit: I just realized that it looks like some of the text from ciclisti.cc is copy and pasted from Panda Podium. Ugh.
-
I weigh 145 lbs, so my preference is always ultra light bike. I'm building my sub 22 lbs XC mtb for under $4k right now. If I can build a sub 15 lbs road biike, that would be paradise for me. The key here is I won't break my bank in the process.
I would suggest you look at the forum for names of factories, oems, sellers, brokers, see what they offer on the lighter end of things, and report here. I'm rather curious myself, and i think we'd be happy to opine on the pros and cons of the options you identify.
From the top of my head, velobuild, workswell, seraph-tantan, speeder, flybike - carbonda, long teng, yishun - light carbon, haidelibikes - tideace - SP cycle, Miracle, adapt-bikes, dengfu, winow, airwolf/yaoflying.
That's not meant to be exhaustive, and that's avoiding the obvious pseudo brands like ICAN and yoeleo that simply repaint $500 frames for a (large) fee.
And if you happen to have a MOQ of 5 for certain options, or something like that, let's chat.
-
https://www.allstarobm.com/scott-road-disc-frameset-addict-rc-pro-disk-bicycle-bike-frame-p4646676.html
hello boss,
please buy chinese aethos. beautiful bicycle ride to coffee shop many friends asking, wow so nice but why no cable and where buy? you tell them spare-sir-rice make this for you only! they go WOW! now you local legend!
What is the consensus about this website ?
-
What is the consensus about this website ?
Not great it seems...
https://chinertown.com/index.php?topic=4988.0 (https://chinertown.com/index.php?topic=4988.0)
-
You dont need a super light frame to get a build under 15lb. That's almost like a regular midrange build these days. I had a 6kg rim brake build around a ~950g frame a few years ago. And that's with everything- pedals, bottle cages, computer mount. It was heavily compromised though- carbon saddle, garden hose Tufo tubular tires- it was kind of awful to ride.
It's all about picking the right components. My suggestions?
- Frame- something with a round seatpost so you have cheaper options there. Rim brake is getting tough as there are less and less options. The innovation/investment is in disc.
- Wheels- not hard at all to find sub 1200g wheelsets these days. You don't even have to compromise much on width/depth. You can prob find sub 1000g wheels if you're willing to compromise on performance (I wouldn't)
- Tires- I might just not have known about better options when I did my build but I don't think you have to compromise here. BRR has the info to let you find the best compromise of weight, rolling resistance and puncture protection: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews?orderby=weight Shouldn't be an issue for you to find 23c tires under 200g/axle that aren't complete trash.
- Cranks- not hard to find ~400g crank arms. I have Extralite chainrings and they are OK. If you can go 1x, even better.
- Groupset- mixed bag; mechanical rim is the lightest but eh. Carbon rim brake surfaces just suck and turn your wheels into wear items. I would def look into disc, not sure if hydro or cable is lighter. Again go 1x if you can
Etc. You can def get under 15lb without sacrificing much of anything; I'd wager you can even get under 14lb if you are very careful. I will say it is very nice to have a bike that "holds speed" so I would also factor aero in...... aero & rolling resistance take over pretty early so I think it's worth eating a few grams for stuff like rim depth, faster tires etc will make for a more enjoyable experience. My bike is prob 1kg heavier now but it is so much faster and nicer to ride. My next build splits the difference with the best of both worlds.
-
I'd say 15 lbs. is really easy with a mid-level 900g'ish frame. Wheelsets are more plentiful and have the advantage of being cheaper to buy, plus rotational weight will make a bigger difference. If I was building a dedicated road climber, I'd totally opt for a 1x setup. A 38 to 44t upfront and something like a Spedao 10-42t cassette in the rear. The removal of the FD offsets the slight weight gain in the cassette. I think going 1x mechanical or electronic is a personal preference. Both should work fine. Though if I was going 2x, I'd definitely go electronic.
Panaracer Agilist TL would be my go-to. The 25c version is 210g and the duro version is 235g. You can go with the non-tubeless that come in at around 190g with TPU tubes, but I find those tires flimsy as heck. They even have a 170g version, but I'm guessing those are like paper.
There are a bunch of cheap carbon cranks on AliExpress now. Pick whichever.
I'd also consider a separate bar + stem combo. A 90g UNO stem paired to a sub 200g drop bars should weigh and cost less than an integrated bar.
The Big Rock Sohtea just has the ugliest branding, so my vote would go to an ICAN FL1 even if it weighs a bit more. It's cheaper and has all the modern amenities.
My cheap ass TFSA frameset with 1100g Easedon wheels is just hovering above 15lbs. and I haven't even gone full weight weenie on it. If I went with an ICAN FL1 or Flyee and focused on weight reduction, I'm pretty sure I could hit or go below the 14 lbs. mark.
-
I'd say 15 lbs. is really easy with a mid-level 900g'ish frame. Wheelsets are more plentiful and have the advantage of being cheaper to buy, plus rotational weight will make a bigger difference. If I was building a dedicated road climber, I'd totally opt for a 1x setup. A 38 to 44t upfront and something like a Spedao 10-42t cassette in the rear. The removal of the FD offsets the slight weight gain in the cassette. I think going 1x mechanical or electronic is a personal preference. Both should work fine. Though if I was going 2x, I'd definitely go electronic.
Panaracer Agilist TL would be my go-to. The 25c version is 210g and the duro version is 235g. You can go with the non-tubeless that come in at around 190g with TPU tubes, but I find those tires flimsy as heck. They even have a 170g version, but I'm guessing those are like paper.
There are a bunch of cheap carbon cranks on AliExpress now. Pick whichever.
I'd also consider a separate bar + stem combo. A 90g UNO stem paired to a sub 200g drop bars should weigh and cost less than an integrated bar.
The Big Rock Sohtea just has the ugliest branding, so my vote would go to an ICAN FL1 even if it weighs a bit more. It's cheaper and has all the modern amenities.
My cheap ass TFSA frameset with 1100g Easedon wheels is just hovering above 15lbs. and I haven't even gone full weight weenie on it. If I went with an ICAN FL1 or Flyee and focused on weight reduction, I'm pretty sure I could hit or go below the 14 lbs. mark.
There is so few reviews of TFSA. Which model is it ?
-
The Big Rock Sohtea just has the ugliest branding, so my vote would go to an ICAN FL1 even if it weighs a bit more. It's cheaper and has all the modern amenities.
I pulled the trigger on the FL1 a few days ago for basically this reason. I'm not planning to build it super light -- I'm drawn to this frame as much for the Aethos-esque aesthetics as for the low-ish weight -- but hope to achieve 15-ish lbs with 2x12 and 50mm deep rims.
-
There is so few reviews of TFSA. Which model is it ?
I think TFSA went under. Their AliEx presence disappeared. It's the same open mold frame as the Trifox X-16 or the Delihea Rest frameset. It's basically a Tarmac SL6 copy. Handling-wise I have no issues. Though like any cheap carbon frameset, you'll have to do your own fine touches.
I bought it a few years back, but there are new lightweight options now available that I'd opt for something else.
-
Ah that's a shame. TFSA had some nice paint jobs.
-
Ah that's a shame. TFSA had some nice paint jobs.
Check Delihea like Jonathan said. I think they also do great paint-schemes sometimes.
-
Received ICAN FL1 today. Took approximately 3 weeks from order to receiving (British Columbia, Canada), including the weeklong Chinese national holiday.
Deets:
Size 52 in chameleon 19818C paint. $979USD including shipping ($135), extra hangar ($8) and two bottle cages ($11.50 each)
Weights:
Frame including various clamps, bolts, hangers - 875g
Uncut fork - 362g
Seatpost - 188g
Headset and compression plug - 120g
XMcarbonspeed wheels on order. Need to purchase groupset, handlebar, etc.
-
Good candidates for light frames:
https://www.icanbikes.com/Products-list/t1000-carbon-road-disc-brake-frame-fl1-795g/#
Ican, 800g in size 54.
https://www.flybike-asia.com/product/139.html
Fly bike (mothership behind carbonda, and OEMs for a lot of brands, ICAN included, de rosa...). They dont advertise weights here but i suspect the specs to be similar to the ican one.
And if you buy these, you get something that's 1. not illegal and 2. will not break from under you in a sprint.
this isn't meant to be an exhaustive list, but rather i just came across these so posting here for reference.
Speeder SC-R55D - 51cm Weight: 780g (frame) + 77g (Aluminum Parts) + 50g (Painting). As per their website. They used to offer different layups, now they only offer this light layup version. Great reputation as an OEM. It looks like a Rose Xlite, which i think looks amazing. I like that look better than the SL8, so my interest in fakes is officially over. if i were to pull the trigger on a frame today, i think i'd buy that 55D.
-
If I were you, I'd think hard about the Bigrock frame. I have done 1,100 miles of hard riding on mine and it has honestly been fantastic. I think the name is funny, whenever someone asks me about it, I tell them that I only ordered it because I misread the "R" as a "C." The frame is incredibly well done though, very stiff, great geometry, and the carbon layup is so clean it puts my big name carbon bike to shame.
-
Think hard about bigrock. Hard riding, very stiff. Five stars. All of the stars.
-
With the disclaimer that this is my first bike build and that I know little about carbon frames in comparison to many others on this forum, I'm impressed with my initial inspection of the FL1 frame.
-
Think hard about bigrock. Hard riding, very stiff. Five stars. All of the stars.
I want to be clear that while the jokes do write themselves, my Bigrock has left me completely satisfied. Oops, guess I can't be stopped. It's seriously a good frame though!
-
With the disclaimer that this is my first bike build and that I know little about carbon frames in comparison to many others on this forum, I'm impressed with my initial inspection of the FL1 frame.
Well, this is actually a lot of paint overspray, nothing which should be a deal braker, but that was not cleaned up after spraying. Not that you should expect that, but it is just an okay job. The BB shell will have contact with the overspray and most likely crack the paint.
The brake mounts may need some work with a razor blade to clean up the overspray, if you have trouble aligning the brak caliper.
The bearing seat of the headtube looks very good though.
-
With the disclaimer that this is my first bike build and that I know little about carbon frames in comparison to many others on this forum, I'm impressed with my initial inspection of the FL1 frame.
It does look super clean to me. Very nice.
I want to be clear that while the jokes do write themselves, my Bigrock has left me completely satisfied.
:D
It's funny and all, but i really wouldnt want to ride clown branding every day. I love dick jokes, i'm a child, but dick jokes all day every day are too much. So their branding really is tragic. Glad to know they make good frames though, because with Tavelo, we know a frame can be expensive AND a POS!
-
If I were you, I'd think hard about the Bigrock frame. I have done 1,100 miles of hard riding on mine and it has honestly been fantastic. I think the name is funny, whenever someone asks me about it, I tell them that I only ordered it because I misread the "R" as a "C." The frame is incredibly well done though, very stiff, great geometry, and the carbon layup is so clean it puts my big name carbon bike to shame.
Can u show us photos of your bidcock?
Edit:Ummm sorry bigrock
-
https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/bigrock-mtbigrock-51151
Here are a few photos and some build details of my large (56cm) black Bigrock.
-
Here are some pics of the ICAN FL1 fork and headset bearings.
I have a few questions for the forum:
1. The stated max front rotor size is 140mm. This should be fine for me as I'm around 65kgs, but I'm curious why this frameset could not take a 160mm rotor. Any ideas?
2. Would you have any reservations about using the supplied headset bearings? Would it be worthwhile using something like an FSA before I put this bike together?
3. I take it that this fork doesn't require a metal crown race?
-
https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/bigrock-mtbigrock-51151
Here are a few photos and some build details of my large (56cm) black Bigrock.
Nice and clean, well done. And to be fair, I can't even see the logo on these pictures so I suspect it's easy enough to forget about it. It looks a lot like an aethos.
-
https://www.allstarobm.com/scott-road-disc-frameset-addict-rc-pro-disk-bicycle-bike-frame-p4646676.html
hello boss,
please buy chinese aethos. beautiful bicycle ride to coffee shop many friends asking, wow so nice but why no cable and where buy? you tell them spare-sir-rice make this for you only! they go WOW! now you local legend!
WTF you forgot to add some Fu Manchu and slant eye references >:(.I get that you’re trying to make fun of an obvious scam but stay classy eh?
-
What is the T47 spacing on the Fl1? Is it 86mm? Would be a shame as the Magene PMs would not fit.
-
What is the T47 spacing on the Fl1? Is it 86mm?
Yes - 86
-
It does look super clean to me. Very nice.
hello!
I wanted to ask your advice: what frame of these two would you choose and why? ican fl1 or flyee?
bike for long rides 200+ km
so far, my choice is flyee.
thank you for your answer
-
ican fl1 or flyee?
I went with FL1 based on price and aesthetics (round tubes, classic seat post collar). I have not built it up yet so I cannot report on ride quality.
-
So, my new bike project got bigger, I'll be building a new MTB too. I was talking to Vivian from TanTan for their FM121 XC frame, then checking out their road frame offers too. I ended up getting the FM025 frame, size S, about 825g. Vivian offered me a bundle discount. Total cost for FM121 + Fm025 is less than $1300. Now I'm shopping for wheels. Already got quotes from XM Carbon Speed and Yuan An. Wheels from Go Zone on AliExpress look very good too.
-
WTF you forgot to add some Fu Manchu and slant eye references >:(.I get that you’re trying to make fun of an obvious scam but stay classy eh?
i am asian
i no classy
-
With the disclaimer that this is my first bike build and that I know little about carbon frames in comparison to many others on this forum, I'm impressed with my initial inspection of the FL1 frame.
I would get an endoscope and look inside
-
Brands command a premium, for what benefit?
With Giant being the exception (a brand that owns / is the factories), you have factories that make frames for brands, and brands distribute and sell. Each layer needs to eat. The further away from China, the more expensive the layer, and the less relevant (carbon bike market is now so commoditized with all frames looking the same and within 5w of each other). Therefore, the closer to the factory, the better the value & the less bullsh1t.
It is telling that Pinarello has frames made in china and they paint them in Italy. You can get real custom... because of the paint. Factor is the same: their frame looks open mould, but you get to really tune... the paint.
There's something to be said about where the expertise really lies. Take carbon layup. Is it Specialized that's really the expert, or Specialized suppliers? I dont have the answer, but it's important when thinking about light frames: as of now, T700 is ghetto. T800 is the gold standard, most legit carbon things are made with it. And then you go into fancy territory, with T1000, T1100, and increasingly, you see exotic things like M30, M40, and others. As brands brand (ie differentiate), there's also the question of how much a brand is making shit up (what does specialized's Fact carbon actually mean? Ditto with Pinarello's different carbon tiers). T1000 is "known" (rumoured?) to cost about 2x T800, so you will NOT see a frame made with T1000 for $500. If T1000 and $500 are seen on the same page, it means they (at best) INCLUDE T1000 in the frame, but it could be 1% - obviously, that's unregulated, Chinese are known to basically lie, and, maybe most importantly, you can't test it yourself -. The biggest benefit of higher tiers is you can use less of it for the same strength, so frames get lighter.
And so, you're left with the usual questions:
- Do you want to pay extra for a brand? The Chinese market now has brands, including Specialized equivalent brands (ie social media fluff fest). As a westerner, i'd say buying a Chinese brand is the worst choice possible: you pay a premium, but you're not in China, so you can't flex at the cafe your branded bigcock frame that nobody knows, and you can't lean on the bigcock bike shop for help / maintenance / support / warranty / i spent money here please be make me feel important and refer to me as your lordship.
- If you buy a western brand, (1) you (usually) get to rely on your local LBS, (2) you get a frame that's been QCed (questionable truth), (3) and if you buy something high end, you buy a vibe around layup technology, ride properties, the secret sauce that makes it so that when you jump on a specialized, your hair grows back, your biceps get more defined, and the ladies look at you like "ooh myyyy". (3) goes back to my point above on who actually has the layup know how.
So, a rational actor will wonder: how much more over an equivalent spec (features & weight) OEM frame am i willing to spend to benefit from 1-2-3?
- If you buy an OEM frame, you have to trust that (A) the factory / broker actually exists (people on this forum still using paypal insurance scheme to send money to Farsports is money down the drain, as far as i'm concerned), (B) they will ship you what you ordered (when Airwolf on Aliexpress sells you a frame for 12 dollars made of full T1100, spoiler alert, they're lying), (C) they will ship you a frame that's not a dog, and that's been QCed enough (Light carbon shipping cheese, Tavelo with undersized BBs whose shells crack during install, and all the horror stories you can find on here with Airwolf, tantan, workswell, and so on).
- On (C), because a seller will usually tell you not to worry, then ship you swiss cheese anyway, you have to factor in an element of risk: more often than not, seller A (after careful consideration on your part to choose that seller) will ship good frames, but occasionally, they will fuck up, at which point you need to be qualified enough to understand where they fucked up, and complain. Also, let's be honest, in many instances, people complaining about frames is USER ERROR, or such trivial niggles that the factory should indeed ignore the noises you make. And you have to complain loud enough, to a seller that is honest enough / has enough of an incentive to listen and help.
And so, this forum is invaluable in helping identify (a) where the value is, (b) good sellers, (c) and bad ones.
For light frames, it depends on what you deem light (and what tyre clearance you need). A lot of 2024 frames are around or below 1000g in Medium (starting with the Velobuild 268, which really is the standard of value). SP Cycle claims a 880g frame (30C, R025-SL), Yishun has an endurance frame at 900g, Long Teng claims their chonky boy 301 is 980g. I havent mapped out the lighter side of the market, because i'm over 80kg myself, but i would say: reach out to OEM with a good reputation on this forum, ideally order 2 frames and build 1 for a friend (or more), as you will command better care and attention, ask questions, accept the risk that no matter what you do, you may have problems to solve, but deal with someone who will more likely than not agree to help you rather than ghost you, and have fun.
Or buy a Giant TCR, ofc, once you've swallowed the upfront cost, rarely do people regret buying a branded frame.
Notes:
- on light carbon, recent precedents make them look bad (1 example of awful cheese carbon, 1 example of a down tube you could deform by hand, off the top of my head, but they generally have great reputation, and they're linked to Yishun (if i'm not mistaken), which also has great reputation.
- on tantan, plenty of people report horror stories, but they also OEM for big brands, and they are huge (assuming a constant error rate, the bigger you are, the more errors). As such, and because perfection is an ideal, nor a reality, they're probably still a good counterpart.
- Airwolf has an error rate so high it makes errors part of who they are, so you probably dont want to buy frames from them. But i've been buying cockpits from them, and i love their cockpits. So even that is more nuanced than just "avoid airwolf"
What do i know? I've been riding bikes for a long time, most of my friends ride bikes and many of them are champions, and i've built 9 chinese bikes in the last 2y.
These opinions are my own and as a matter of course, i tend to agree with what i say, which doesn't make it truth.
I wanted to get back to this. A frame I do like visually (Yishun R1088D) is coming with T700, but still has the common weight of a Chinese carbon frame (>1000g).
Many like Speeder or TanTan speak of T800 and achieve just the same weight, even if the material is supposed to be lighter for the same structural integrity.
Is Yishun good at using T700? What weight could they save with better carbon?
And then on the other end, you've Winowsports with a new frame, which is ridiculous heavy and just loses 300g for the shipped model compared AliExpress ...
-
probably in the realm of 50/50.
You sure about that?
-
I recently learnt (and i am going to assume this is true) that you can't build a frame w T800 alone. T700 is the backbone of bike carbon stuff, both wheels and frames.
So you have 700 vs 700+800 vs 700+800+[1000/1100/MJ40 and other exotic stuff].
When we hear of sworks frame cracking like matches, it's probably because they use a lot of T1000 level fibers, which is stiff, but very fragile.
800 is stiffer and lighter than 700, and the next tier even more so. But all come at the detriment of strength.
So, when you see T800, afaik, you have to read T700+T800, probably in the realm of 50/50.
I think that to achieve a sub 1000g, you kind of have to use T1000 in the mix. Probably impossible with T700 alone, and i think rather unlikely w T7+8.
Re. the winow beast, if you're heavy and do only stead state efforts on the flat, then it's probably a nice bike. Otherwise i see every reason to buy something else.
Back when Easton was more prevalent in making components and were claiming carbon nanotube content, I was talking to one of their engineers at a BBQ party-at most they contained 1-2% of nanotubes mixed into their resin layup.
Also read somewhere where some of the layup plans for GiantSpecTrekDale frames had some pieces that were no larger than a postage stamp. I could easily see a 50/50 T700 and T800 mix with a few small pieces of T1000 around high stress areas like tube junctions.