Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: Sander2177 on June 19, 2025, 10:54:17 AM
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After posting the “Candid Look Inside the Replica Frame Industry – What a Chinese Insider Told Me” thread, I’ve been thinking about going a bit deeper with this.
I’ve already bought the X68, and I had planned to get it scanned—but didn’t in the end, mainly because I was being tight with money. That said, I’ve been speaking to more sellers, asking tougher questions, and trying to really understand what’s happening behind the scenes—because the reality is, most of us are flying blind when it comes to buying these replica frames.
Everyone claims their frame is “top quality,” whether they’re a seller, manufacturer, or somewhere in between. But the truth is, we don’t really know. We rely on a mix of user reviews, scattered posts, and a bit of gut instinct—and even that is hit and miss.
These frames typically sell for around $700 USD, and the ones marketed as “premium” or “top-tier” are closer to $1,000 USD. No doubt they’ve improved over the past five years in terms of finish and design, but there are still obvious issues. Sellers are now offering 2- or 3-year warranties, which on the surface seems reassuring—but when things go wrong, you’re the one covering shipping costs, customs delays, and lengthy conversations with someone halfway across the world.
One thing I’ve been digging into more is the topic of layup and construction. Sellers often say the original CAD files were “acquired” and moulds were made—especially in the case of popular models like the SL8. But what does that really mean? Is there an actual layup schedule being followed? Are the fibre orientations correct? Are cutting patterns even remotely similar? And is the carbon comparable to what brands use—or just generic Toray or something cheaper?
It’d be fascinating to see what these sellers are actually working from. I’ve asked for photos, cutaway samples, testing footage—anything that could serve as proof—but answers so far have been vague at best.
That’s why I’m planning to buy another frame—this time with the intention of having it properly scanned and analysed. I don’t just mean a once-over. I’m talking full inspection: wall thickness, fibre layup, internal finish, bonding, consistency. One consideration is having a CT scan done here in the UK, which would give us a clear view inside the frame without damaging it. That’s likely to cost around $200–250 USD, but it would be a huge step forward in transparency.
Whether it’s CT or physical teardown, we’ll find a way. I think that kind of deep dive could offer genuine value to people on this forum.
To be clear, I’m not doing this to promote counterfeit products. People are going to buy these frames whether I say anything or not. But if they’re going to do it, they deserve better information—something more than a Telegram screenshot or a factory promise.
A few people in the past have said, “Chuck Patrick a couple of quid so he can buy a frame.” Just for the record—I’m not asking for money. I’ve got two bikes already. I’m not rich, but I’m fine. If I need another frame, I’ll buy one. That said, if someone genuinely wants to help support the idea—just to fund proper analysis and testing—drop me a DM. If 300–400 members each put in £2, that’s the price of a coffee. Nothing more. Just something to consider.
I’m all about saving money and getting good value myself, but more importantly, I’m about helping people make smart, informed decisions. If I can contribute to that with what little knowledge and experience I have, then I’ll do my best to make it worthwhile for others.
Always happy to hear thoughts—especially from senior members or anyone who’s been around long enough to cut through the fluff.
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I'm game. Dm me a funding link...
FWIW, though, what we'll know about is one frame. I'm not convinced that there's a single source for the sl8ish bikes, although I doubt there are many. And I'm not sure ex cure you'll be able to tell a whole lot about fiber quality and orientation of plies, but maybe I'm wrong. But as you and Serge and some others have said in the past, I think that we're at a point where its pretty common knowledge about how to lay up a serviceable and lightish frame. If there's any "special sauce" its likely in unique orientations that are at best marginal gains, and lighter but more fragile material. And that may all be a myth as well.
What would be really interesting would be to scan an actual sl8 pro/expert and an x68 to compare. But now you're getting into needing youtube revenue to fund that sort of endeavor. And who knows how many people care? The avg. cyclist looks down their nose at these frames, making jokes about dental insurance and whatnot.
The issue arises with frames from sources that have nothing to lose. Tantan is a biggish company that has skin in the game. I suspect that they at least vet their source carefully if in fact its a third party frame. An ali storefront is another matter.
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I'm game as well!
Would be intrested in what frame you are going to scan/tear down. The x68 would make sense, given the number of replies on that thread and the hesitation that comes from questions about weight/safety (exploding forks, too light weight, etc.). Got a plan for any particular frame?
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Hey Glepore,
Thanks for your thoughts — I wanted to add some info I’ve been given about these frames.
Regarding the carbon fiber layup, there are industry standards. The model drawings we have actually come from an original factory, but really they’re just very precise 3D models — they don’t show the actual carbon fiber layering or fiber orientations.
The real difference lies in the carbon fiber factory’s actual capability. For example, factories use carbon fiber sheets and adjust fiber orientations (0°, ±45°, 90°) to get anisotropic mechanical properties. Areas needing stiffness like the bottom bracket and head tube get more longitudinal layers, while shock-absorbing parts like the seat stays use angled layers.
The drawings themselves aren’t hard to get — in our circle, if you’re willing to pay, you can get them.
But every factory has its own stacking method and uses different carbon fiber brands, so there’s no way all market frames have the same layup. Also, there’s definitely no real “T1100” carbon fiber out there. We use M30 from Korea, which is just behind Toray in quality. Those “T1100” claims are just marketing hype — our weight-to-stiffness ratio speaks for itself.
Adding to that, it’s clear the information is widely available and you can buy it for genuine frames. What really matters is the expertise of each individual factory that gets the job. It’s not just one factory — it’s multiple factories, and some are better than others, producing higher quality frames.
From what I can see, the info is easy to get hold of, so it really comes down to who’s producing it and the ethics behind it. Some factories focus on quality and craftsmanship, while others just want to churn out products and make money quickly.
Also, I know there’ll be some people reading this who might be sceptical. Honestly, some might think I’m crowdfunding just to get myself a free frame. To be clear, I’m not desperate to get $750 for a frame. I’m just genuinely interested in digging a bit deeper.
Maybe not scanning the X68 exactly, but at least getting a frame made, sending it away for analysis, and seeing what happens. Could be fantastic or could be terrible — who knows. But the store seemed quite keen and confident about doing it, so that’s encouraging.
Just thought I’d share all that to add some context to the discussion!
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Could always do two frames for comparison 😂
Can’t be arsed to strip my bike down though lol.
I’m not worried about the time but two frames is ££££
Probably looking at £1500gbp including scans
End up finding out Tan Tan frame is doggy doodooo and let see how they repsond to that.
Probably say the expert is not an expert 😂
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Adding to that, it’s clear the information is widely available and you can buy it for genuine frames. What really matters is the expertise of each individual factory that gets the job. It’s not just one factory — it’s multiple factories, and some are better than others, producing higher quality frames.
From what I can see, the info is easy to get hold of, so it really comes down to who’s producing it and the ethics behind it. Some factories focus on quality and craftsmanship, while others just want to churn out products and make money quickly.
Exactly what I'm thinking.
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Exactly what I'm thinking.
😂
Well Glepore we’ve definitely got plenty of lurkers watching — and with the insight I’ve managed to gather (which, granted, will always have its skeptics), I think this kind of project could be genuinely useful.
It’d be nice if some of the lurkers piped up too — they’re often the ones messaging me privately asking, “So where’s the best quality place to buy a frame?” 😅
Definitely worth considering stripping down the X68 to avoid having to buy a second frame — a direct comparison would obviously be far more insightful.
Not sure what the best platform for donations would be aside from PayPal 😂 but I’ll look into it.
I’ve seen a one guys on YouTube do a review on a Trek and an SL8 , but they’ve been pretty underwhelming — just side-by-side comparisons with no real depth or analysis. So there’s definitely a gap for something more detailed.
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It’d be nice if some of the lurkers piped up too — they’re often the ones messaging me privately asking, “So where’s the best quality place to buy a frame?” 😅
Ironically, I think the effect of this thread has only been to increase interest in counterfeit frames.
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Could always do two frames for comparison 😂
As a man of science, I also think that 2 frames is the go to not only check for they layups, but also reproducibility. At least to some extent.
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Indeed. Quality can vary a lot between two frames from the same seller. We have to remember the "cheese frame" from Lightcarbon or even Winspace.
Unfortunately, I doubt that we can tell the serious of a seller by analyzing only one frame. But it is a beginning :).
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A good friend of mine (actually my business partner too) just bought a Velobuild 268 and opted to get the frame in raw (unpainted).
Looking at it up close, IRL, it's nothing at all like an SL7. Being raw probably doesn't help, but hot damn it's really rough around the rear brake caliper mounting points, not to mention it has a completely different thru axle design (fake Mavic quick release thru axles were provided), making it impossible to use ordinary thru axles.
Also a genuine SL7/Allez Sprint seatpost does not fit into the frame, and even the way the rear seatstays attach to the frame are different to an SL7.
I also noted that the rubber flap over the seatpost sticks out past the frame, and the seatpost clamp has much sharper edges vs. the SL7 original.
IE/TLDR: It's definitely not a super accurate replica, and the changes made to it aren't any better.
That said, this SL8 frame in question. From what I've read so far:
- The replica frame fork is lighter than a genuine SL8 fork (some reports of it "exploding" too). Why is this?
- Not sure, but does a genuine SL8 seatpost fit into the replica SL8 frameset? If not, then that's quite revealing.
Ultimately, no matter how much research you do, I think the final end result will be the same. IE: It's way cheaper than a genuine SL8, it's good, but it's not better.
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Well the 268 was never mean to be an sl7 anything. It's based upon the 168, with the goal of making a more aero bike (in appearance at least). The 168 itself was heavily inspired by the sl7, but not a direct copy or counterfeit. The engineer probably had one on a table next to them, but they definitely didn't rip it from a cad file or 3d scan.
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Fair call, ignore everything I said about the Velobuild then, but instead focus on what I said about the SL8 rip-off.
IE: After all the testing has been done, the findings will reveal that it will be good, but arguably not as good as a genuine SL8 and most definitely not better than a genuine SL8.
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Ironically, I think the effect of this thread has only been to increase interest in counterfeit frames.
I’d actually disagree — the interest in counterfeit frames has always been there, it’s just that people are now more openly talking about it.
I understand it’s a sensitive and divisive topic. Some will agree, others won’t, and yes — it’s technically illegal. I’m not denying that. Is it in the true spirit of the forum? Maybe not entirely. But the reality is that the demand is huge, whether we like it or not. And with demand comes discussion.
That’s the value of threads like this — they spark conversation, debate, and hopefully, awareness. I’m not here to promote counterfeits, but if people are going to explore that route anyway, I’d rather they be informed and aware of the risks — safety being a big one.
It’s a bit of a catch-22. You either bury your head in the sand and pretend it’s not happening, or you engage with it in a way that helps people make smarter decisions.
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I’d actually disagree — the interest in counterfeit frames has always been there, it’s just that people are now more openly talking about it.
I understand it’s a sensitive and divisive topic. Some will agree, others won’t, and yes — it’s technically illegal. I’m not denying that. Is it in the true spirit of the forum? Maybe not entirely. But the reality is that the demand is huge, whether we like it or not. And with demand comes discussion.
That’s the value of threads like this — they spark conversation, debate, and hopefully, awareness. I’m not here to promote counterfeits, but if people are going to explore that route anyway, I’d rather they be informed and aware of the risks — safety being a big one.
It’s a bit of a catch-22. You either bury your head in the sand and pretend it’s not happening, or you engage with it in a way that helps people make smarter decisions.
I appreciate the intention, but I think your proposal would be interesting if applied on a large scale, which would mean examining more models/frame manufacturers and not necessarily only replicas/counterfeits.
I follow these discussions with interest and the one about the TanTan X68, but for example I bought a Spcycle R088 frame (because, even if it is clearly inspired by the Tarmac SL8, at least it is different and has its own identity) and obviously I would be more interested in having the quality of this frame and/or other frames produced/sold by Spcycle verified (from what they say it seems like they have their own factory, but from what I understand, you have to take with due caution what is reported by the interested parties).
So, in conclusion, I would rather "invest" resources to analyze/promote "proprietary" frames and offer a potential buyer feedback on the manufacturer....but I think it is very difficult to achieve all this.
PS: an "indirect" way to evaluate the quality/reliability of an OEM frame could be to do a search to see if it is sold by some brand.
At the beginning of my search I had identified a Workswell frame that I could not buy because it was already sold by a "well-known" Italian brand (at least for Italians)....this leads me to think that the frames produced by Workswell are reliable, even if obviously they cost a little more than $700.
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Hey Bonus,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply — I really appreciate you taking the time, especially given how busy things get.
Yeah, I get that it’s a deep dive into a tricky topic, and it’s not easy balancing that with day-to-day stuff. Your insight on Workswell and the re-badging by various brands really highlights the complexity of the market.
You know, I totally respect the proprietary frame thing, the OEM, the OpenMold — but for me, those are pretty much what you expect. Generally, OpenMold works well. Companies like HongFu are well researched, and there’s plenty of info about them on the forums.
The thing that really caught my attention is the counterfeit side of things — that murkier world. It’s interesting because it’s potentially factories and manufacturers that make these frames on the side. So it’s worth looking into the claimed quality of these frames.
Like it or not, there is a huge, huge market for these counterfeit frames — there just is.
I started the thread on the Chinatown forum because I was curious about these things myself, and I guess it’s sparked some interesting discussion. I’m just one guy trying to make sense of it all too!
Totally agree that there are bigger creators who might take it further, but for now, it’s about what’s manageable and interesting. Looking forward to seeing how this develops.
Thanks again for your input!
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That said, this SL8 frame in question. From what I've read so far:
- The replica frame fork is lighter than a genuine SL8 fork (some reports of it "exploding" too). Why is this?
- Not sure, but does a genuine SL8 seatpost fit into the replica SL8 frameset? If not, then that's quite revealing.
Ultimately, no matter how much research you do, I think the final end result will be the same. IE: It's way cheaper than a genuine SL8, it's good, but it's not better.
The replica fork in practice generally isn't lighter than an actual sl8 fork. The quoted weight may be, but there's a very wide tolerance quoted. There is one report of failure that I'm aware of . I did a fair amount of bike law in a prior life and I can vouch that carbon parts from big companies fail too. In fairness, they are subject to remedies that tantan and others likely aren't, but hey, if you're injured I'm not sure that's a major factor. That said, yes, I suspect that the factory producing for Specialized in all likelihood has more qc oversight than the average "replica" as most are sold by resellers.
As far as parts fitment goes, there is a very slight variance between the actual sl8 post and the tantan post. Reports have been of 1mm or so. Likely a cad or scanning error. Otherwise the parts work.
But to your greater point, I don't think anyone buying these frames expect them to be "as good" or "better". I've said before that I bought one because I'm old af and wasn't sure I could make an sl8 actually usable for me, and risking $700 was much different than risking 3k+. Turns out the bike fits, and is a very nice ride, nice enough that I grab it almost always before some high end og bikes.
I honestly don't feel the need to upgrade to a "real" sl8 at this point for the marginal gain. I don't doubt that the real bike is "better" in some way, but I would speculate that a) its not 5x better and b) that confirmation bias aside, without labels you'd be hard pressed to tell.
I get that at the end of the day folks have an issue with flat out fakes and "homage" things. Bicycles, watches, handbags, whatever. I don't begrudge that. I'm living on an adequate but "fixed" income now and can't play in the luxury world any longer. But if the "real" value of something is grossly inflated by marketing costs, distribution costs, dealer networks yada, I'm ok with not paying that tax.
Thanks for your participation here, your bikes and photos are well composed and beautiful.
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I am ideologically opposed to counterfeits and believe frames like the X68 risk being deemed counterfeits, even when not branded. However, I do like this thought experiment, and even the information so far is going a long way towards dispelling the rumors that these are simply frames that fell off of a truck.
At a high level, we need to remember that the load of a modern carbon frame is carried through its external structure, which is why it is referred to as a monocoque frame. Regardless of the construction method, if you can build a frame that passes ISO testing, it's likely to feel remarkably similar; the shape of that structure will be the most significant factor in determining the stiffness of the frame. Details like layup and wall thickness can make a difference, but they are an order of magnitude less important.
That said, the most significant issues with counterfeits of high-end frames are that I don't get the sense that the people doing the replication understand where the original designers made tradeoffs to achieve the performance of their frames. Remember a lot of these frames have known drawbacks like the lack of front-end stiffness of the SSE, front-end performance and reliability on Factors, and seat tube / seat post clamp + stay cracking issues on the Dogma F12 and F. Given that the outside form has a significant influence on the structure of the frame, its not a surprise that replicas seem to suffer from the same issues, potentially at a higher rate. I think VB even stopped making their Dogma clone.
My questions to a replica builder would be to understand if they identified any potential weaknesses in the original design and how they managed that.
I am guessing they don't think about it at all as they are focused on the form, and it's better to buy an original open mold where some engineer thought about and made decisions, conscious of the tradeoffs they were introducing. To me, an analogy is that the replica is having a Frank Lloyd Wright replica house built op top of a waterfall with the help of an architect, but without a review by a structural engineer. The open mold is a structurally sound McMansion with little architectural involvement.
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I am ideologically opposed to counterfeits and believe frames like the X68 risk being deemed counterfeits, even when not branded. However, I do like this thought experiment, and even the information so far is going a long way towards dispelling the rumors that these are simply frames that fell off of a truck.
At a high level, we need to remember that the load of a modern carbon frame is carried through its external structure, which is why it is referred to as a monocoque frame. Regardless of the construction method, if you can build a frame that passes ISO testing, it's likely to feel remarkably similar; the shape of that structure will be the most significant factor in determining the stiffness of the frame. Details like layup and wall thickness can make a difference, but they are an order of magnitude less important.
That said, the most significant issues with counterfeits of high-end frames are that I don't get the sense that the people doing the replication understand where the original designers made tradeoffs to achieve the performance of their frames. Remember a lot of these frames have known drawbacks like the lack of front-end stiffness of the SSE, front-end performance and reliability on Factors, and seat tube / seat post clamp + stay cracking issues on the Dogma F12 and F. Given that the outside form has a significant influence on the structure of the frame, its not a surprise that replicas seem to suffer from the same issues, potentially at a higher rate. I think VB even stopped making their Dogma clone.
My questions to a replica builder would be to understand if they identified any potential weaknesses in the original design and how they managed that.
I am guessing they don't think about it at all as they are focused on the form, and it's better to buy an original open mold where some engineer thought about and made decisions, conscious of the tradeoffs they were introducing. To me, an analogy is that the replica is having a Frank Lloyd Wright replica house built op top of a waterfall with the help of an architect, but without a review by a structural engineer. The open mold is a structurally sound McMansion with little architectural involvement.
with respect to the quality of the production we heard the same thing about carbon wheels direct from China for years. as it stands today, i don't for see myself ever buying a traditional western brand wheel ever again. the pace of advancement in wheels from China is way out ahead of the pack.
quality of frame production is on a similar trajectory. my only current direct from China bicycle frame is my MTB but i have absolutely abused that bike including wrecking hard coming down Jack Mountain in Georgia and it keeps on giving. it has been a great bike.
i am in the the process of helping my son build up an X68. when done it will be yet another data point of its construction and ride quality vs an actual SL8 (mine).
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Thanks for your participation here, your bikes and photos are well composed and beautiful.
Thank you! Long time lurker, but long story short; my Dad was Chinese, and passed away when I was a teenager. In homage to him I'd really love to build a full Chinese build where every single component is not only made in China, but sold by Chinese brands. Up until now the groupset and the tyres were the only thing stopping me, but it's looking like some performance tyres are now coming out of China, so I feel like my project can finally begin.
On the topic of replicas; I've been a graphic designer for most of my career. I put a LOT of blood, sweat and tears to get to the top of my game, and having individuals and companies rip off my work really pissed me off, so much so that I spent countless hours trying to take them down (IE: a lot of energy, time and stress fighting them). When I quit graphic design I started shooting photography full time, and again. I've had countless people rip off my photography with no credits, or worse yet taking credit (not to mention a lot of AI "artwork" using my photography as the source).
Morgan Freeman the actor said something interesting in an interview once, when asked about how do we end racism he simply stated that we stop talking about it. Whilst I'm aggressively against replicas and counterfeits I value discussion a lot.
Do I think any less of my friends who buy counterfeit goods? Maybe, but not enough to unfriend them! I live with it by telling myself it's their problem, not mine. And as I've said elsewhere, am I at all tempted to buy a replica SL8 frame? Yes I am because I'm curious to see how it compares to my genuine SL8. I've never been one to read other people's reviews, but instead would prefer to try things out myself. That said I struggle in this case with knowing the end result before even starting (IE: that the fake SL8 will be fine, but not as good as the real thing).
On a technical point; I do think I would be more impressed if genuine OEM SL8 parts fit the counterfeit frame. Why? Well it would show a greater level of care and craftmanship, and most of all it would allow me to put aftermarket SL8 components onto my replica frame, which is crazy important to me as I love tinkering with bikes and trying out new components as they come out.
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with respect to the quality of the production we heard the same thing about carbon wheels direct from China for years. as it stands today, i don't for see myself ever buying a traditional western brand wheel ever again. the pace of advancement in wheels from China is way out ahead of the pack.
quality of frame production is on a similar trajectory. my only current direct from China bicycle frame is my MTB but i have absolutely abused that bike including wrecking hard coming down Jack Mountain in Georgia and it keeps on giving. it has been a great bike.
i am in the the process of helping my son build up an X68. when done it will be yet another data point of its construction and ride quality vs an actual SL8 (mine).
Whoa there. Please don't take what I said out of context. I am talking about replica brands NOT Chinese production or Chinese brands. IMO, there are people in China as qualified as any western engineer to design a bike frame.
I also have huge respect for the wheel brands that are bringing lightweight layups and focusing on what they do well to deliver excellent products. I also have experience working with Chinese factories on projects, and though language barrier can make communications awkward, they are in no way worse than Western factories. Trade war be damned I have nothing but respect for smart, honest businesses trying to make a buck.
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Thank you! Long time lurker, but long story short; my Dad was Chinese, and passed away when I was a teenager. In homage to him I'd really love to build a full Chinese build where every single component is not only made in China, but sold by Chinese brands. Up until now the groupset and the tyres were the only thing stopping me, but it's looking like some performance tyres are now coming out of China, so I feel like my project can finally begin.
On the topic of replicas; I've been a graphic designer for most of my career. I put a LOT of blood, sweat and tears to get to the top of my game, and having individuals and companies rip off my work really pissed me off, so much so that I spent countless hours trying to take them down (IE: a lot of energy, time and stress fighting them). When I quit graphic design I started shooting photography full time, and again. I've had countless people rip off my photography with no credits, or worse yet taking credit (not to mention a lot of AI "artwork" using my photography as the source).
Morgan Freeman the actor said something interesting in an interview once, when asked about how do we end racism he simply stated that we stop talking about it. Whilst I'm aggressively against replicas and counterfeits I value discussion a lot.
Do I think any less of my friends who buy counterfeit goods? Maybe, but not enough to unfriend them! I live with it by telling myself it's their problem, not mine. And as I've said elsewhere, am I at all tempted to buy a replica SL8 frame? Yes I am because I'm curious to see how it compares to my genuine SL8. I've never been one to read other people's reviews, but instead would prefer to try things out myself. That said I struggle in this case with knowing the end result before even starting (IE: that the fake SL8 will be fine, but not as good as the real thing).
On a technical point; I do think I would be more impressed if genuine OEM SL8 parts fit the counterfeit frame. Why? Well it would show a greater level of care and craftmanship, and most of all it would allow me to put aftermarket SL8 components onto my replica frame, which is crazy important to me as I love tinkering with bikes and trying out new components as they come out.
Cool backstory. I can say from experience that Wheeltop is very impressive for what it is and costs. Have to keep in mind that it's a bit beta, but the company does care and listen. So a fully Chinese quality build is possible, my x68 is in fact that other than tires (and I swapped in Campy calipers just because I like the modulation).
Cool backstory. I can say from experience that Wheeltop is very impressive for what it is and costs. Have to keep in mind that it's a bit beta, but the company does care and listen. So a fully Chinese quality build is possible, my x68 is in fact that other than tires (and I swapped in Campy calipers just because I like the modulation).
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As you know, I’ve been speaking to someone for the past couple of weeks now. Interesting stuff — he told me none of the frames being made use T1000 carbon. That’s basically sales nonsense. He said nobody uses T1000 or T1100 because it’s hard to get and it not just sold to anyone as the sale of its controlled so they just don’t use it. The frames they use are mostly T800 and M30 carbon fiber.
There’s a lot of insider chat about who’s cutting corners, who’s using lower-tier frames but selling them as genuine. They mostly stay outside the replica circle for safety, but they hear bits and pieces about people getting caught and such. This guy mainly sells domestically but has been getting more orders from Western customers via AliExpress and WhatsApp.
He also said they do buy genuine frames as references during production to test component fit and paint color matching. While they can’t guarantee perfect one-to-one replicas, they do, as obviously as you can see, try to get as close to the original as possible. He emphasized that nobody can guarantee a 100% one-to-one replica — it will always be very close, but never exact because it’s not the real thing. People always want better quality, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
He also said some people are cutting corners, but there’s a noticeable shift where some manufacturers are spending more time and effort to produce higher-end replicas to increase sales and profits. He’s noticed that trend growing.
According to him, at least three different groups are making SL8 frames, and some actually use the same carbon fiber factory. It’s almost like a Western brand going to a factory to produce frames, so the quality depends on the factory more than the group selling. Most sellers don’t own factories; they get the design drawings and outsource production to OEM factories.
He mentioned the S5 replica frames — apparently, a carbon fiber factory obtained the design drawings themselves and produced frames they then sold to distributors and customers. Personally, I doubt a factory developing and producing frames blindly from drawings without bike knowledge can do a great job. Factories produce all kinds of carbon parts, like badminton rackets and bumpers, but developing a carbon bike frame needs repeated testing, optimization, and the developer pushing the factory for improvements.
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As I said before, I’m considering getting one of these frames and having it independently tested — WITH a CT scan or carbon layup analysis by a composite expert who operate close to me. Just to actually see what’s going on under the paint.
People are clearly interested — even if the thread replies are low, there are lukers ;D as these are the ones asking where to buy these frame from and asking me about the quality!!. Feel free to DM if you’ve got questions, or want to share experiences anonymously.
Thanks to the people who have said they are willing to contribute, there have been 1383 people view maybe people who have dipped in and out but enough people to maybe buy two frames as suggested the X68 and a decaled copy.
Here’s the link for anyone interested:
paypal.me/sanderson2177
Not sure how it’ll go, but I’ll keep everyone updated on the balance.
If we don’t raise enough, it could take a while to refund everyone — just being honest 😄
Open to other suggestions too, so feel free to share your thoughts if you have a better idea!
And here is some more information below!
Replica Frames: Layups, Factory Realities, and the T1100-T1000 Myth — More from Inside the Industry
After my last post I have still be gathering more information and apologies if I am repeating anything. I know this is a divisive topic, but interest is clearly there — I’ve had quite a few DMs from people who are lurking but curious. A lot of the info below may seem casual, but it’s the kind of stuff that rarely gets said out loud.
Here’s a deeper look into what they’ve shared with me recently:
1. Drawings ≠ Layups
Yes, they’re using CAD model drawings sourced from original factories — but those don’t include carbon fiber layup data.
“In reality, it’s just a very precise 3D model — it doesn’t include the actual carbon fiber layering or fiber orientations.”
That means two frames made from the same model drawing can perform very differently, depending entirely on how the layup is handled.
2. The Real Art: Fiber Orientation
This is where real frame performance comes from.
“By adjusting the fiber orientation (0°, ±45°, 90°), we can achieve anisotropic mechanical properties. In areas that require stiffness (like the bottom bracket and head tube), we increase longitudinal layup. In areas meant to absorb shock (like the seat stays), we use angled layups.”
Each factory does this differently. There is no standard layup across replica frames, even if they come from similar drawings. And the material choice matters too.
“We use M30 material from Korea, which is second only to Toray. Those so-called ‘T1100 & T1000’ claims are just trying to fool you.”
So when you see a seller claiming “T1100 & T1000” — be wary. According to this seller, no one in the replica world is using it.
3.How Frames Are Really Made
Most sellers aren’t frame builders. They’re intermediaries.
“Yes, most people don’t actually own a factory — they just get hold of the design drawings and then look for an OEM factory to produce the frames. We’re the same.”
There’s even a recent case where the factory got the drawings themselves and just started producing (an S5 replica), selling to distributors directly. But:
“I don’t think a factory developing and producing on its own (just from drawings) will do a good job — because they don’t understand bicycles. They make all sorts of things — carbon fiber badminton rackets, carbon fiber car bumpers. 😂”
Without a seller pushing the factory through repeated testing and iteration, the result might look like a bike frame but not perform like one.
4. The Factory Goods Era Is Over
There was a time when (defective or leftover factory goods) were sneaking out of original production lines.
“In the past, some people did take defective products from the original factory and sell them — we called those ‘factory goods.’ But now that kind of thing no longer exists, as control has become much stricter.”
Raids and enforcement are real:
“We only hear bits and pieces, like ‘so-and-so got caught by the police,’ or ‘their factory got raided and over 50 SL8 frames were confiscated.’”
5. Matching Originals — Not 1:1, But Close
They do buy genuine frames — for comparison, for paint matching, and to check component tolerances.
“We don’t dare guarantee a 1:1 replica; we can only say we try to get as close to the official version as possible.”
When it comes to paint and finish:
“We need genuine frames to match the colour tones and improve the level of accuracy.”
So if you’ve ever wondered why some replica paint jobs look dead-on and others look like knockoffs, this is why — some are actually colour-matched using real frames.
6. Spotting Low-Quality Sellers
This bit is gold:
“Just ask them if it’s ‘T1000’ — if they say ‘yes’, then it’s definitely low-quality, no doubt about it 😉. They love to exaggerate.”
“Or, if you see T1000 or T1100 in the product title on their shop, no need to think twice — block them and run away fast 🤣”
Real materials? T800 & Korean M30. Consistent QC? Factory-dependent. Grand claims? Usually fake.
7. SL8: At Least Three Groups Making It
As for the SL8, which a lot of people have asked me about — at least three separate groups are manufacturing it. According to the seller:
“A few of them are actually using the same carbon fiber factory. So the quality of the products they sell should be about the same.”
That said, branding and pricing varies — and some groups are even positioning themselves as “premium” sellers now
What’s Next?
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I love the great insides being delivered in this topic and therefore am very happy to support this project. I don't care about the couple bucks it costs to contribute. In the end I am able to make a more informed choice and maybe even safe a lot of money I would've otherwise spend on a garbage frame. I see this as a nice kind of insurance and hope others will chime in as well and help this project
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Let's get the party started!
Donated to the cause buddy.
If it doesn't come off how about sending the money to cancer research or similar charity.
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Let's get the party started!
Donated to the cause buddy.
If it doesn't come off how about sending the money to cancer research or similar charity.
Just wanted to drop a quick message to say a massive thank you to those who’ve donated so far—especially Thorbons and Piston. I really appreciate the support, not just financially, but also the trust you’ve shown in what I’m trying to do here. It genuinely means a lot that you believe this is a genuine effort and not just a cash grab for some new frames.
Piston’s right—if this does go ahead and people chip in but we fall short of what’s needed, I’ll happily donate the funds to charity (Cancer Research UK), and of course, I’ll post proof of that. For transparency, we're currently sitting at about £60. If this gains a bit more momentum—and there are enough members here—it could really take off.
Like I’ve said before, people don’t seem to think twice about dropping $700–800 on frames from questionable sellers. So honestly, asking for £5, £10, £20 or more from those who are interested in seeing actual test results feels like a reasonable ask. At the end of the day, buying a frame from a seller on a hunch offers no guarantee either. Just ask anyone who’s lost money to Peter from Taiwan/Eisen—plenty of people never saw their frames or their money again.
Right now, I’m riding around on an X68 and sure, it hasn’t fallen apart underneath me—but there’s always that lingering question about how safe and well-made these unbranded frames really are. That’s what I’m trying to get clarity on.
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I'm in agreement with Serge here.
Focusing your time and energy on X68 vs SL8 comparisons is the way to go. Rather than investing in another clone. Scrutinizing both frames with impunity will go a long way for the members here.
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I find this intriguing so I donated to the cause.
I’m fairly certain that I’ll be going with the XM Carbonspeed Grand Turismo frame instead of a replica once my size is available but I like that you’ve been providing valuable feedback and think this experiment will provide useful insight into replica products.
I am onboard with the charity donation should you not receive adequate funds for the purchase of a frame.
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I would love a some analysis of the frames, and get some expert opinion on safety or anything else. For these, you wouldn't need a benchmark as you could probably just rely on expert knowledge.
But yeah, I would prefer an analysis of the X68 more than a replica.
I donated, keep the money for a good meal or charity of your choice, if the project is not funded!
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I would love a some analysis of the frames, and get some expert opinion on safety or anything else. For these, you wouldn't need a benchmark as you could probably just rely on expert knowledge.
But yeah, I would prefer an analysis of the X68 more than a replica.
I donated, keep the money for a good meal or charity of your choice, if the project is not funded!
Thanks, Neo — really appreciate it.
And also, thanks for putting your trust in me. If I can raise enough funds, the plan is to get two frames — another X68 and a decaled replica, or maybe just compare my existing X68 to a rep. Either way, two frames would definitely be better for testing and comparison.
And honestly, if the whole thing doesn’t work out, I’ll just donate the money to charity. I couldn’t, in good conscience, use people’s donations to treat myself to a meal or something like that — no matter how tempting that might sound.
Like I’ve said before, some people are willing to drop $700–800 on a counterfeit frame from a seller they’ve never met halfway across the world — and yet hesitate to chip in a few pounds or the cost of a coffee to support an actual test of one of these frames. It’s kind of funny when you think about it — the risks people are willing to take.
Take someone like Taiwan Eisen Pete — people trusted him, he had a good reputation for a while, and then he vanished. Now there are who knows how many people out there left out of pocket, $600–$800 a frame. And yet there’ll be others reading this thinking, “Nah, I’m not sending this guy five quid — I don’t even know him.” I get it. But still, it’s a strange contrast.
That said, it’s been great to see some of the regulars and long-time forum members putting their trust in me. That really means a lot — and I’m genuinely grateful for it.
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It’s a start!
Cheers to those who have donated 🙏
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I have a replica Factor Ostro VAM v1 from one of the most reputable "fakers" it's their highest tier 3 layup. Only has about 120km on it. It did not workout for me (Frame is excellent quality to the point you wouldn't tell the difference it's just way too aggressive for me) and I ride an Enve Fray now. No one wants to purchase it and I would never try to sell it as a real one even though it really does look 1:1. I've done the endoscope camera etc down the frame but nothing extensive.
I would be willing to donate it if it was guaranteed to be used/scanned for science and not just sit in your garage lol.
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I'm in agreement with Serge here.
Focusing your time and energy on X68 vs SL8 comparisons is the way to go. Rather than investing in another clone. Scrutinizing both frames with impunity will go a long way for the members here.
Sander, I agree with Patrick....I think the reference point/term of comparison should be the SL8, so if you really wanted to have two frames examined/scanned, I think it would make more sense to opt for the SL8 and X68 (which you already own) in order to have an objective comparison "on paper" between the two frames (as Serge also said), which can then be followed by a comparison "on the road" to understand in practice what the differences that could emerge from examining the two frames translate into.
Here, I think this could be the most interesting/useful "focus" if you want to make an evaluation of the X68 replica frame.
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I still fail to see what the point is?
Peak Torque has made it quite clear that he actually despises companies sending him products to review as they benefit from his expertise to make their product better without paying him.
So in this case, you're asking us to pay so they can make a better replica product to sell to the masses?
No aggression meant, just confused as to what the point of all this is as it's well documented that many people have had (and most likely will continue to have) catastrophic failures with genuine big brand products too (which are usually covered under warranty).
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I find it strange that you don’t see the point here.
These are counterfeit frames we’re talking about — not licensed replicas, not budget alternatives, but unregulated products from unknown or questionable sources. My concern isn’t about helping someone improve their product for free — it’s about understanding the true quality and safety risks of items that people are already buying and riding, often without realizing what they’re actually getting.
Let’s be real: people are willingly spending $700–800 on these frames with no warranty, no customer support, and no accountability. Yet, when someone like me asks for $10 to help cover the cost of testing, the reaction is suspicion and skepticism?
I don’t have to do this. I have a regular job. I’m spending my own time and energy because I believe there’s genuine value in bringing clarity to a part of the market that’s murky at best, and potentially dangerous at worst. If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t bother. But if no one is willing to step up and do some level of objective testing, then we just keep guessing — or worse, people keep riding risky gear with no idea what they’ve actually bought.
Yes, I’m well aware that big-brand frames have had failures — SL7 steerers, broken Bianchis, Canyon bar issues, and more. But the key difference is: those brands offer warranties, recalls, and legal accountability. That’s not even remotely comparable to a counterfeit frame made in a random, unregulated factory with zero oversight and no one to turn to if it breaks under you.
Bonus mentioned the idea of testing an SL8 vs the X68. I agree, it’s a great idea. But let’s not forget: I’m the one doing all the legwork — stripping down bikes, arranging testing, documenting the process, and taking the time to share it with the community. I’m more than happy to pass that mantle on if someone else wants to step up and take it on. This isn’t about ego. It’s about actually doing the work.
No aggression meant — just being honest. Not all risks are equal, and pretending they are isn’t helping anyone.
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Sounds like you have a big heart Sander (much respect), but from what I gather from this forum (and weight weenies) is that people are well aware of the risks in buying substantially cheaper unregulated products as that substantial savings is what speaks louder than logic.
IE: I have so far had no issues with this "insert replica product here" so it's fine.
Hell people (myself included) are even willing to take the risk of replacing a perfectly good working compression plug for a 5g alternative.
So just say the outcome after testing is YAY! The product is safe! Do you think more people will buy the replica frame? Or just say the end result after testing is BOO! The product is dangerous! Do you think less people will buy the replica frame?
I think if your mission was to somehow cover all replica products, that could make a change, but only focussing on this one SL8 replica frame won't accurately represent all the other replica products on the market (but it might just give the company a bad name which is cool if that's your intent). EG: If the tests suggest this replica frame is dangerous it doesn't at all mean that other replica frames are dangerous.
PS: Not trying to start a war here, just contributing to the discussion as that's what I thought you wanted (I do believe discussion is a good thing).
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Sounds like you have a big heart Sander (much respect), but from what I gather from this forum (and weight weenies) is that people are well aware of the risks in buying substantially cheaper unregulated products as that substantial savings is what speaks louder than logic.
IE: I have so far had no issues with this "insert replica product here" so it's fine.
Hell people (myself included) are even willing to take the risk of replacing a perfectly good working compression plug for a 5g alternative.
So just say the outcome after testing is YAY! The product is safe! Do you think more people will buy the replica frame? Or just say the end result after testing is BOO! The product is dangerous! Do you think less people will buy the replica frame?
I think if your mission was to somehow cover all replica products, that could make a change, but only focussing on this one SL8 replica frame won't accurately represent all the other replica products on the market (but it might just give the company a bad name which is cool if that's your intent). EG: If the tests suggest this replica frame is dangerous it doesn't at all mean that other replica frames are dangerous.
PS: Not trying to start a war here, just contributing to the discussion as that's what I thought you wanted (I do believe discussion is a good thing).
Appreciate the thoughtful response — and definitely no war here, just solid discussion, which is exactly what forums like this are for.
I’m covering this subject and I have had alot of people DMing me asking which seller offers the “best quality” replica — and yeah, I get how strange that sounds.
Is "quality" even a word we can seriously attach to a counterfeit product? All these sellers claim “best quality,” but let’s be real — that’s just marketing to move units, no different in spirit from the big brands, just without the R&D and oversight.
That said, even though no one can definitively answer that question, testing one or two frames does offer valuable insight. It won’t tell the full story, but it gives us a tangible snapshot of what’s being sold — and if multiple replica frames (like Factor, Pinarello, etc.) are coming out of the same few factories, then testing even a couple could reveal patterns worth knowing.
I also agree that testing one replica frame (like this SL8) doesn’t represent the whole market, either positively or negatively. But I anticipated this would stir up conversation, and honestly, that’s kind of the point. No one is ever going to cover every angle — it’s impossible — but you’ve got to start somewhere, right?
Even if a test result says “YAY! Safe!” or “BOO! Dangerous!”, I doubt it’ll drastically shift everyone’s buying habits. But it adds a bit more signal to the noise and gives people some real data to think about. That’s all I’m aiming for — not to pass judgment, just to inform and encourage some healthy debate.
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Yes, it won't be comprehensive. But even one data point is pertinent information.
Luescher used to do his cut videos, but that was quite some time ago. His chinerelo video was revealing...worth a watch if you haven't seen it (spoiler-both frames had issues, real and fake, and he couldn't tell fiber composition of either).
If we learn that we don't learn anything, that's still useful knowledge.
I agree that a ride comp is worth the time. Sander has done a summary, but its based on recollection. It might be interesting to do a couple (shortish) rides on each back to back with same wheels, tires and pressures to get a more accurate review. I say shortish because freshness could be a factor. But you'd have to control everything, saddles, position, even bartape really. Those of you old enough will recall that Bicycle Guide back in the day had Mondonico build a bunch of identical bikes with different grades of Columbus tubing for a blind test to see if anyone could feel the difference on the road.
If anyone wants to send me an actual 49 sl8 pro, I volunteer to be the test mule. :D
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Of course it’d be great to do this kind of testing on a large scale, but let’s be honest — we’re all just regular people here. Most of us have day jobs, limited time, and limited budgets. I’m not a YouTuber, I don’t have a sponsor, and I’m not running some massive testing lab. I’d love to be able to test multiple frames across OEMs, brands, and replicas, but realistically, I can only start with what I have access to.
And I get it — some people are more interested in OEM or “own-brand” frames like the Spcycle R088, and that’s totally fair. But there’s also a large group of riders out there who can’t (or don’t want to) spend £5k+ on a branded frame, Princeton wheels, or $500 saddles. So they go to AliExpress, and they buy replicas. Whether people like it or not, that’s the reality.
What I’m doing isn’t about promoting one thing over another. It’s about starting somewhere. I have t a real SL8, so I don’t feel the need to test it — but maybe I will after your suggestion which is great . I also ordered an X68, and the idea is simple test a copy (maybe now test against SL8 Bonus ;). It won’t answer every question, but it’s a step toward understanding what’s out there.
Like you said — and I totally agree — it's difficult to achieve comprehensive coverage of everything. These discussions always snowball. You say you're going to test one frame, and then it becomes, “Well, why not test this frame too? Or that one?” And I get that, but at some point someone’s got to actually do something — not just talk about it. It’s easy to suggest ideas, harder to follow through.
Also, just to touch on another thing — people assume the big brands have flawless QC. But let’s be honest: not every Specialized frame is getting X-rayed and rigorously tested. Some might, but most are probably spot-checked. So even “premium” frames can have issues. The only difference is the brand name and the price tag, plus a lot of clever marketing.
So yeah — this is a big topic. It sparks debate, it divides opinion, but it’s a conversation worth having. You’ve got to start somewhere.
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I find it strange that you don’t see the point here.
These are counterfeit frames we’re talking about — not licensed replicas, not budget alternatives, but unregulated products from unknown or questionable sources. My concern isn’t about helping someone improve their product for free — it’s about understanding the true quality and safety risks of items that people are already buying and riding, often without realizing what they’re actually getting.
Let’s be real: people are willingly spending $700–800 on these frames with no warranty, no customer support, and no accountability. Yet, when someone like me asks for $10 to help cover the cost of testing, the reaction is suspicion and skepticism?
I don’t have to do this. I have a regular job. I’m spending my own time and energy because I believe there’s genuine value in bringing clarity to a part of the market that’s murky at best, and potentially dangerous at worst. If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t bother. But if no one is willing to step up and do some level of objective testing, then we just keep guessing — or worse, people keep riding risky gear with no idea what they’ve actually bought.
Yes, I’m well aware that big-brand frames have had failures — SL7 steerers, broken Bianchis, Canyon bar issues, and more. But the key difference is: those brands offer warranties, recalls, and legal accountability. That’s not even remotely comparable to a counterfeit frame made in a random, unregulated factory with zero oversight and no one to turn to if it breaks under you.
Bonus mentioned the idea of testing an SL8 vs the X68. I agree, it’s a great idea. But let’s not forget: I’m the one doing all the legwork — stripping down bikes, arranging testing, documenting the process, and taking the time to share it with the community. I’m more than happy to pass that mantle on if someone else wants to step up and take it on. This isn’t about ego. It’s about actually doing the work.
No aggression meant — just being honest. Not all risks are equal, and pretending they are isn’t helping anyone.
I honestly have no idea how the tests/scans on the frames are done.
I understand your point very well: if the lab that would perform the studies needs the "naked" frames, it would be an inconvenience for you to have to completely dismantle the bikes and deprive yourself of the possibility of using them.
I hadn't thought of that. ;)
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I honestly have no idea how the tests/scans on the frames are done.
I understand your point very well: if the lab that would perform the studies needs the "naked" frames, it would be an inconvenience for you to have to completely dismantle the bikes and deprive yourself of the possibility of using them.
I hadn't thought of that. ;)
No worries, the tests involve a mix of CT scans and ultrasound. The bikes might not need to be fully stripped down, but I’ll need to confirm that. For a proper inspection, just the frames are required. The scanning cost for two frames is around £300-400 GBP.
However, the bikes do need to be stripped and rebuilt — including new brake hoses, cables, etc. Hiring a mechanic might cost around £500 for both bikes. Plus, it means I’d be without the bikes for possibly two weeks or more, considering stripping, inspection, pick-up, drop-off for rebuilding, and final pick-up. Time is really valuable to me, and I don’t have a lot of spare due to life commitments!
I could drop of one frame at a time but that doubling up on trips etc!
had 2242 views on this thread so could have easily had enough cash to cover the cost at $1usd each maybe even buy an R088 when you think about it.
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Thanks to the 9 people who have sent in some ££
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No worries, the tests involve a mix of CT scans and ultrasound. The bikes might not need to be fully stripped down, but I’ll need to confirm that. For a proper inspection, just the frames are required. The scanning cost for two frames is around £300-400 GBP.
However, the bikes do need to be stripped and rebuilt — including new brake hoses, cables, etc. Hiring a mechanic might cost around £500 for both bikes. Plus, it means I’d be without the bikes for possibly two weeks or more, considering stripping, inspection, pick-up, drop-off for rebuilding, and final pick-up. Time is really valuable to me, and I don’t have a lot of spare due to life commitments!
I could drop of one frame at a time but that doubling up on trips etc!
had 2242 views on this thread so could have easily had enough cash to cover the cost at $1usd each maybe even buy an R088 when you think about it.
If your project succeeds, I will be happy to contribute to the cause (even if the frame in question does not directly concern me)....I am waiting for the counter to reach at least £300 GBP ;)
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If your project succeeds, I will be happy to contribute to the cause (even if the frame in question does not directly concern me)....I am waiting for the counter to reach at least £300 GBP ;)
Thanks Bonus79!
The counter is at £179.19!
Someone I know not on the Forum has ordered and X68 so he said he is happy to pass me his frame for inspection
I am contacting this company this week https://carboncyclesolutions.co.uk/
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Come on your tight fisted cnuts 😂. I’m sure some of you can for go your OnlyFans subscription for one month 😂
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The value proposition is just not there for me. You are a guy on the internet without any authority. Your alleged insider contact is just that - alleged insider with zero credibility.
My impression is that fulfilling all the aims that you suggested is way above the price point in your original post. You may get a CT scan for $200, but who will do the data analysis? Do you have a background in material science? Can you even use CT to determine fibre type/brand (I kinda doubt that)?
For me, the quality/composition of a single frame is not a question. But how consistent is the manufacturing/quality process? And you need many more frames to figure that out.
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The value proposition is just not there for me. You are a guy on the internet without any authority. Your alleged insider contact is just that - alleged insider with zero credibility.
My impression is that fulfilling all the aims that you suggested is way above the price point in your original post. You may get a CT scan for $200, but who will do the data analysis? Do you have a background in material science? Can you even use CT to determine fibre type/brand (I kinda doubt that)?
For me, the quality/composition of a single frame is not a question. But how consistent is the manufacturing/quality process? And you need many more frames to figure that out.
Fair points — and I actually agree with some of what you’re saying.
You're right: I’m just a guy on the internet. I have no official authority, no industry titles, and I’m not claiming to be a carbon expert or materials engineer. That’s exactly why I’m not trying to do this myself. The plan is to pay professionals to handle the scanning and, if possible, assist with the interpretation. I’m not going to sit there with raw CT files pretending I understand them.
As for the alleged “insider,” I get the skepticism. I was careful to frame that whole post as anecdotal — not gospel. That’s also why I want to move away from hearsay and toward objective data. I’m not asking anyone to take my word for anything.
To your point about consistency: you're 100% right. The bigger question isn't just “is this one frame good?” but “how often are they all good?” And yes, to answer that properly, you'd need a much broader sample size than just one or two frames. But my view is: you have to start somewhere.
That’s why I’m planning to scan two frames — one known replica (e.g. X68) and one genuine SL8. Not to draw universal conclusions from a sample of two, but to at least create a baseline for comparison. And to share that openly for the benefit of others in the same position I’m in: curious, cautious, and trying to make informed decisions without access to factory floors.
Can CT determine fibre grade or brand? Probably not directly — and I’m not claiming it can. But it can help with wall thickness, internal voids, bonding quality, layup irregularities, and general build consistency. That’s already more insight than what’s currently floating around in Telegram chats or Reddit anecdotes.
This isn’t about proving a point or building credibility. It’s about putting some verifiable information out into a space that’s flooded with marketing fluff and guesswork. If someone else wants to do it better, I’d gladly step aside and support that too.
But short of dismissing the idea — what’s the alternative? Wait for manufacturers to volunteer CAD files and QC data? Trust sellers who won't even share a photo of the inside of a downtube? If people don’t want to rely on blind faith, then someone has to take the first step.
At the end of the day, I’m doing this for the good of the community. Not to sell anything. Not to boost my ego. Just to help shine a light where there’s currently a lot of shadow.
And as for credibility — like anyone else, it has to be earned. But where do credible people usually start? From zero. Just like this.
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People are already buying these frames — that’s just the reality. Maybe something like this will at least better indicate what it is we’re actually buying from these unregulated sources.
If the results are bad, it might make people think twice. If I could test 50 frames of each kind, I absolutely would — and if I had the funds, I’d cover it myself without hesitation. But this is a starting point. Not a full conclusion.
And if it turns out the replica frame is genuinely well made? Well, that says something too — about how far the quality has come. But it also raises a tough question: are we then giving an unintentional thumbs-up to counterfeits? There’s a moral dilemma there, and I don’t take it lightly.
It’s easy for people to shoot me down with words — I get that. But the truth is, no one else is really putting themselves out there to do this. And let’s be honest: it’s not a topic any respectable YouTuber or cycling media outlet is likely to touch.
I just believe people deserve clearer information to make their own decisions — not sales pitches and vague promises. That’s what this is really about.
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Update
Thanks so much to everyone who’s contributed so far — I’ve already booked my flight to the Cayman Islands! 😄😄
This afternoon, I emailed Carbon Cycle Solutions in Bedford regarding a frame inspection. Once they get back to me with details on what their inspection includes, I’ll post an update here.
Also, someone I know who has ordered an X68 has kindly offered their frame for inspection once it’s delivered — much appreciated! I’ve asked Carbon Cycle Solutions whether they’re able to carry out the inspection on a fully built bike as well. Will share more once I hear back.
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Update
Thanks so much to everyone who’s contributed so far — I’ve already booked my flight to the Cayman Islands! 😄😄
This afternoon, I emailed Carbon Cycle Solutions in Bedford regarding a frame inspection. Once they get back to me with details on what their inspection includes, I’ll post an update here.
Also, someone I know who has ordered an X68 has kindly offered their frame for inspection once it’s delivered — much appreciated! I’ve asked Carbon Cycle Solutions whether they’re able to carry out the inspection on a fully built bike as well. Will share more once I hear back.
Is there any outcome of this experiment?
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Is there any outcome of this experiment?
Nope, dead duck 🦆😂
We didn’t get enough money together to test a couple of frames. Then as usual
A load d1ckheads piped up with, “Testing one frame won’t tell you anything — you need to test more than one.”
Really? 😂 And who exactly is paying for that then? FFS, there are some dickheads about.
Anyway, everyone was refunded and I cracked on with my life!
Quite amusing really, considering the number of people who are prepared to risk $1,000 on a counterfeit frame, but weren’t prepared to risk $10 or whatever it was to get a couple bought, sent to a professional, properly tested and have a report done.
I think some of them genuinely thought that if they didn’t get their $10 back, I was going to disappear off in my private jet to some sun-soaked island and live the good life 😂✈️🏝️.
Well looks like a few counterfeit sellers may have done exactly that already
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Nope, dead duck 🦆😂
We didn’t get enough money together to test a couple of frames. Then as usual
A load d1ckheads piped up with, “Testing one frame won’t tell you anything — you need to test more than one.”
Really? 😂 And who exactly is paying for that then? FFS, there are some dickheads about.
Anyway, everyone was refunded and I cracked on with my life!
Quite amusing really, considering the number of people who are prepared to risk $1,000 on a counterfeit frame, but weren’t prepared to risk $10 or whatever it was to get a couple bought, sent to a professional, properly tested and have a report done.
I think some of them genuinely thought that if they didn’t get their $10 back, I was going to disappear off in my private jet to some sun-soaked island and live the good life 😂✈️🏝️.
Well looks like a few counterfeit sellers may have done exactly that already
lol, the bitterness :D
It's not my fault, it's the dickheads. As a French person, it's a moto i live by.
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lol, the bitterness :D
It's not my fault, it's the dickheads. As a French person, it's a moto i live by.
Yep I’m all bitter an twisted 😂 😂 mate you got me!
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Nope, dead duck 🦆😂
We didn’t get enough money together to test a couple of frames. Then as usual
A load d1ckheads piped up with, “Testing one frame won’t tell you anything — you need to test more than one.”
Really? 😂 And who exactly is paying for that then? FFS, there are some dickheads about.
Anyway, everyone was refunded and I cracked on with my life!
Quite amusing really, considering the number of people who are prepared to risk $1,000 on a counterfeit frame, but weren’t prepared to risk $10 or whatever it was to get a couple bought, sent to a professional, properly tested and have a report done.
I think some of them genuinely thought that if they didn’t get their $10 back, I was going to disappear off in my private jet to some sun-soaked island and live the good life 😂✈️🏝️.
Well looks like a few counterfeit sellers may have done exactly that already
That's a shame. I realy liked the post/idea when I stumbled on it last week. But you're not far off to conclude that there a bunch of very strange people out there. Good to let it rest and forget about it.
Thanks for your honesty and sharing this idea
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That's a shame. I realy liked the post/idea when I stumbled on it last week. But you're not far off to conclude that there a bunch of very strange people out there. Good to let it rest and forget about it.
Thanks for your honesty and sharing this idea
Copilot said:
No worries, I gave it a try! 😄
There is quite a bit of content online from people who have bought and ridden these bikes, including some useful like-for-like comparisons. That's great, but things such as build quality, close-up visual inspection, manufacturing consistency and overall ride feel are often subjective and only tell part of the story.
A detailed scan and inspection by a competent professional would be very interesting, and it's something I could possibly help facilitate. However, for the exercise to have real value, it would make sense to purchase three or four frames from different sellers and compare them directly. By the time you've bought the frames and covered inspection costs, you're probably looking at an investment of around $3,000-$4,000 or more.
Ideally, you would want someone with the expertise and reputation of Luescher Teknik to carry out the assessment, as that would add credibility and provide a genuinely independent evaluation of the frames.