Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: NicoCarbonH on July 29, 2025, 11:54:53 AM
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Hi everyone,
I’m currently looking for a high-end road bike frame that matches as closely as possible the Specialized S-Works SL8 FACT 12r, ideally as an OEM, surplus, or QA reject (not a replica or low-cost clone).
My technical requirements:
• Carbon: Toray T1000 , at least in critical zones (BB, HT, chainstays, downtube) – with proof of layup or credible declaration.
• Molding: EPS / 3D latex inner molding only (no bladder molding), clean internal finish.
• Geometry: As close as possible to the SL8 race geometry.
• Weight: <800 g for size 52/54, bare frame.
• Finish: UD raw, clear thin matte varnish (no paint, no logos).
• BB standard: T47 (68 mm or similar).
• Origin: Verified factory surplus or OEM production (Taiwan or China) – not generic open mold unless it meets all above specs.
• Budget: Up to €2500 all included (frame + fork + customs + proxy fees).
Already evaluated:
• LightCarbon LCR017-D → good EPS molding, 760–830 g, but only T700+T800+T1000 (no T1100).
• LightCarbon LCR018-D → includes T1100 but is an endurance/all-road frame (~980 g), not suitable.
• Contacted several sellers (Dongguan etc.) → mainly replicas, not genuine OEM or surplus.
I’m looking for:
• Verified OEM suppliers with real SL8-like frames (T1000 layup, EPS molding).
• Factory contacts (WeChat, Xianyu, Taobao) for QA rejects or surplus units.
• Anyone who has successfully sourced such a frame and can share leads or trusted proxies.
Thanks a lot for any help or PM contacts – I’m ready to buy if the frame meets these requirements.
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official tarmac sl8 frame goes for 4000euros on the specialized website.
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Evolve Cima
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+1 for Evolve Cima
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No the 2025 id 5,500€ on specialized
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why evolve cima precisely?
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Winspace SLC 5.0
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+1 for Evolve Cima
+2.
Actual aero. Sub 700g frame. Ceramicspeed headset. Real t1000 and m40. One of the partners founded Cybrei. Its an amazing frame for the money, likely actual s works quality for 1/2 the price.
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Why do you need it to have T1100. What you're describing basically doesn't exist in this day and age
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why evolve cima precisely?
I was just looking and it seems to tick off many of your boxes (T1100, geometry, weight), except for the finish (It looks like these are painted).
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I don't love the geo of the Evolve Cima vs. an SL8, but I broadly agree that it doesn't get much better than that right now. Though in your price range the Seka Spear is probably worth a look as well as the Incolor Intropy SSR which we are still waiting on in terms of a release.
Edit: Should also add in the Quick Pro AR:One. It a Flybike frame, they do OEM for brands that have had bikes in the World Tour, though not sure they make any models that are currently raced by WT teams. I think you can get an unbranded one from Carbonda, their contact info is in the classified section of this forum.
I don't think you will find anyone legitimately selling OEM versions of top frames; they just dont operate that way anymore and honestly, the good ones for the good brands never have. You also won't find cosmetic seconds available from factories; brands actually use these. I know of a couple dev teams that get blem frames supplied as team bikes. Edit: I remembered that I have been offered some of these in the past, but through a Western bike shop or directly from a brand. Frames are rare, wheels and components are easier to get and regularly get sold online through a small number of stores.
Just like with ultralight wheels, investments in production are bringing lower-cost options that utilize newer production methods to market. The LTK 266-D-SL and its related 266 variants, sold by various sellers, appear to be a great example of this. This does have sub-800 g weights (painted with/derailleur) mounts. There is a thread on this frame here, and I have one inbound. The geometry, though, is more Time ADH than SL8, tho. You probably won't get anything that confirms the layup either, but hey, you could fit at least 5 of these into your budget.
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I don't love the geometry of the Cima myself. These days I'm trying avoid running a 140mm stem, so I prefer a longer reach and wheelbase on their size large. That and I don't love the paint jobs. But I understand their conservative nature for this first go-round.
EDIT: Can't for @Serge_K to rip this thread into shreds ;D
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Agree on the "no seconds" comments. I don't know that there ever has been a actual supply of qc fails nor cosmetic seconds in the retail market, largely a myth promoted by dreamers and sellers of bogus stuff.
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No the 2025 id 5,500€ on specialized
hes talking about the regular sl8. Discounted it’s cheaper. Sworks can be sometimes bought for 4.5 I think.
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As other said, Evolve Cima or Quick Pro AR:One. You will probably could get AR:One in bare carbon when you contact directly with Carbonda.
And there is nothing like QA rejects on the market. No one will risk the contract just for a few pennies.
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Start with a SL8 counterfeit from a known seller , thats what I did , than if you don't think its good just get another frame and move the parts.
I use and abuse mine and vey happy with the bike.
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Start with a SL8 counterfeit from a known seller , thats what I did , than if you don't think its good just get another frame and move the parts.
I use and abuse mine and vey happy with the bike.
Same for me
Bought a used fake SL8 with ultegra Di2 for a good price. It is really pleasing. Rocket fast.
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I use mine for 2 month now for 1000+ km climbing descending poor roads and the bike is great.
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Same for me
Bought a used fake SL8 with ultegra Di2 for a good price. It is really pleasing. Rocket fast.
29km/h doesn't screen rocket fast 🙃
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Dengfu/Avenger Shuttle SL might be a worthy candidate with T1100 EPS molding.
https://avengerbikes.com/products/2025-new-carbon-road-bike-frame-avenger-shuttle
(https://avengerbikes.com/products/2025-new-carbon-road-bike-frame-avenger-shuttle)
Sidenote: Stay away from fake SL8's if you want a high performance frame. You're buying something which is not produced with the goal of achieving high quality.
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29km/h doesn't screen rocket fast 🙃
I do 60 and normally lately will not do more even with my dogma (real one)
if he did 29+ average speed with 599m climb for 38km thats not bad , if you are stronger it doesn't mean his time is bad.
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Dengfu/Avenger Shuttle SL might be a worthy candidate with T1100 EPS molding.
https://avengerbikes.com/products/2025-new-carbon-road-bike-frame-avenger-shuttle
(https://avengerbikes.com/products/2025-new-carbon-road-bike-frame-avenger-shuttle)
Sidenote: Stay away from fake SL8's if you want a high performance frame. You're buying something which is not produced with the goal of achieving high quality.
I can assure you that you didn't see my frame quality which looks and feels superb (with the type of carbon used which I cannot be sure which type is it).
The funny thing is that if I remove the decals you will call it tantan and say its a good frame (or any similar sl8 like frames on ali)
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I do 60 and normally lately will not do more even with my dogma (real one)
if he did 29+ average speed with 599m climb for 38km thats not bad , if you are stronger it doesn't mean his time is bad.
I think they don’t know what real mountains are
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The same the QA reject thing don’t happen
What your looking for is a hard one like a unicorn!
I’m only repeating everyone
Hong Fu Avenger 750g
Cima Evolve
Winspace SLC they do the extreme version
Quick Pro AR one
And I know a seller selling SL8s 54cm 700g range and no not genuine! No T1100/T1000 used
Maybe Specilaized Tarmac but Pro Level frame will reach this weight.
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4000 euro budget? Just by a SL8 Pro frame if you cant find an S-Works. The 100 gr difference is not even by pros noticable.
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4000 euro budget? Just by a SL8 Pro frame if you cant find an S-Works. The 100 gr difference is not even by pros noticable.
Is it just the 100gr difference or there is stiffness difference?
I never saw any comparison between them except
The 12r 10r 100gr
Find it hard to believe that they charge 5500€ compared to 3200€ for an 100gr only difference
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Is it just the 100gr difference or there is stiffness difference?
I never saw any comparison between them except
The 12r 10r 100gr
Find it hard to believe that they charge 5500€ compared to 3200€ for an 100gr only difference
Specialized are the only ones I'm aware of who make it an explicit design point to retain the same riding characteristics of a model across the range of material grades. That means they are designed to be as similar as possible in stiffness comfort, etc., with the only tangible differences being weight and fragility.
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I can assure you that you didn't see my frame quality which looks and feels superb (with the type of carbon used which I cannot be sure which type is it).
The funny thing is that if I remove the decals you will call it tantan and say its a good frame (or any similar sl8 like frames on ali)
bro don't casually spill out facts like that I don't want my future replica cost like those "real thing" which creaks like crazy
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Hi everyone,
I’m currently looking for a high-end road bike frame that matches as closely as possible the Specialized S-Works SL8 FACT 12r, ideally as an OEM, surplus, or QA reject (not a replica or low-cost clone).
My technical requirements:
• Carbon: Toray T1100 (or FACT 12r equivalent), at least in critical zones (BB, HT, chainstays, downtube) – with proof of layup or credible declaration.
• Molding: EPS / 3D latex inner molding only (no bladder molding), clean internal finish.
• Geometry: As close as possible to the SL8 race geometry.
• Weight: <800 g for size 52/54, bare frame.
• Finish: UD raw, clear thin matte varnish (no paint, no logos).
• BB standard: T47 (68 mm or similar).
• Origin: Verified factory surplus or OEM production (Taiwan or China) – not generic open mold unless it meets all above specs.
• Budget: Up to €4000 all included (frame + fork + customs + proxy fees).
Already evaluated:
• LightCarbon LCR017-D → good EPS molding, 760–830 g, but only T700+T800+T1000 (no T1100).
• LightCarbon LCR018-D → includes T1100 but is an endurance/all-road frame (~980 g), not suitable.
• Contacted several sellers (Dongguan etc.) → mainly replicas, not genuine OEM or surplus.
I’m looking for:
• Verified OEM suppliers with real SL8-like frames (T1100 layup, EPS molding).
• Factory contacts (WeChat, Xianyu, Taobao) for QA rejects or surplus units.
• Anyone who has successfully sourced such a frame and can share leads or trusted proxies.
Thanks a lot for any help or PM contacts – I’m ready to buy if the frame meets these requirements.
this thread ;D love all the part Time comedians .
Easy one and it has been said on here buy me and other.
Tarmac SL8 Pro level frame about 780grams.
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Thanks a lot to everyone for the detailed replies – this is incredibly helpful.
From what you’re saying, it sounds like the idea of getting a true OEM or QA reject frame (from a top-level factory, unused, unpainted) is basically impossible nowadays.
I’m curious though – was this ever really a thing in the past, or has it always been more of a myth used by sellers to make their replica frames sound more legitimate?
Thanks again for all your answers – this has helped me a lot
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If it was, it was from employees doing it illegally, not the factory. Literally one guy tossing them over the fence to somebody.
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Myth.
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Am I the only one who remains very curious about what you're planning for by buying these reject frames direct from factory?
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Am I the only one who remains very curious about what you're planning for by buying these reject frames direct from factory?
Well obviously sell them as perfect 😂
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Thanks a lot to everyone for the detailed replies – this is incredibly helpful.
From what you’re saying, it sounds like the idea of getting a true OEM or QA reject frame (from a top-level factory, unused, unpainted) is basically impossible nowadays.
I’m curious though – was this ever really a thing in the past, or has it always been more of a myth used by sellers to make their replica frames sound more legitimate?
Thanks again for all your answers – this has helped me a lot
The idea of QA reject frames from legitimate OEMs is just a myth. Otherwise, we’d all be buying them. But to be fair, why would I want to risk buying a reject frame?
That said, I have bought an X68 from Tantan, which to me was a calculated risk based on the mixed feedback about their quality. I think it’s hit or miss — you’re either lucky or you’re not.
For what you’re looking at, you might as well just buy a brand-name frame. Like everyone’s said — QuickPo, Tavelo, Arrow, Winspace. I’ve always recommended the Pro version of the SL8.
Anything else recommended on this site, or buying from OEMs or open moulds, is going to carry some element of risk. But for the money you’re spending, I’d just go brand-name.
Personally, if I had four thousand dollars right now, I’d get the QuickPro ER One. Then you can get some wheels from somewhere like XM Carbon Speed — they have a really great reputation. Even Zen is a bit cheaper and a solid option.
With that, plus a groupset and some bits and pieces, I think you could probably build a whole bike for around four thousand dollars, depending on the groupset you choose.
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The idea of QA reject frames from legitimate OEMs is just a myth. Otherwise, we’d all be buying them. But to be fair, why would I want to risk buying a reject frame?
That said, I have bought an X68 from Tantan, which to me was a calculated risk based on the mixed feedback about their quality. I think it’s hit or miss — you’re either lucky or you’re not.
For what you’re looking at, you might as well just buy a brand-name frame. Like everyone’s said — QuickPo, Tavelo, Arrow, Winspace. I’ve always recommended the Pro version of the SL8.
Anything else recommended on this site, or buying from OEMs or open moulds, is going to carry some element of risk. But for the money you’re spending, I’d just go brand-name.
Personally, if I had four thousand dollars right now, I’d get the QuickPro ER One. Then you can get some wheels from somewhere like XM Carbon Speed — they have a really great reputation. Even Zen is a bit cheaper and a solid option.
With that, plus a groupset and some bits and pieces, I think you could probably build a whole bike for around four thousand dollars, depending on the groupset you choose.
Would you really spend 4000 usd in an unknown brand with a low resell value instead buying a real brand bike in slightly used condition ?
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Of the makers typically purchased on this forum, I don't think any of them would meet the definition of a top-level factory if you are referring to factories with production lines that manufacture top-spec frames for brands like Specialized, Scott, Trek, Cervelo, Colnago, Cannondale, etc. The closest is probably Carbonda / QuickPro, whose factory Flybike does a robust open mold business and has made bikes for brands that sponsor teams in the WT, but I don't believe they made the bikes actually raced by those teams.
Before Seka got booted from Xiamen Lightweight Composites, they could make that claim if you consider Factor a top brand.
Seconds are not impossible to get, but anyone selling current models at scale is fake. It never was a thing and was always a myth.
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Would you really speed 4000 usd in an unknown brand with a low resell value instead buying a real brand bike in slightly used condition ?
Yes, because it’s not about reselling or anything like that – I just wanted to build a fully custom bike and have a high-quality raw carbon frame. Of course, if I can’t find a good alternative, I’ll go with well-known brands like Canyon, but I first want to explore what’s available in OEM options.
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If you have 4000 euro to spend, get the legitimate one. The reason we explore OEM is because of ultimate C/P ratio. 4000 euro for a frame is far from that, try 500 USD.
Also, the biggest myth here is not the QA reject thing, it is the T1100 you are asking for, I am not even talking about whether it is really used for frames, ever thought there is only a single layer of T1100 even when they claimed they used T1100? Do you believe it makes a significant difference in terms of stiffness?
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Would you really speed 4000 usd in an unknown brand with a low resell value instead buying a real brand bike in slightly used condition ?
+1
With that money I'd get a Giant Propel or Canyon Aeroad.
Resale value matters.
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If you have 4000 euro to spend, get the legitimate one. The reason we explore OEM is because of ultimate C/P ratio. 4000 euro for a frame is far from that, try 500 USD.
Also, the biggest myth here is not the QA reject thing, it is the T1100 you are asking for, I am not even talking about whether it is really used for frames, ever thought there is only a single layer of T1100 even when they claimed they used T1100? Do you believe it makes a significant difference in terms of stiffness?
Thanks for the feedback, but let me clarify a few things because this project is being misunderstood:
1️⃣ “Why not just buy a legitimate frame?”
I’m not looking for a typical cost-per-performance OEM deal at $500. My goal is a high-spec raw carbon frame, close to what Specialized does with the S-Works SL8 (EPS molding, mixed T1100/T800 layup, <800g, raw UD finish).
A legitimate new S-Works frame costs over €5,500. If I can source a QA reject or surplus factory frame with verifiable layup quality for €4,000, that’s actually good value considering the tech involved.
2️⃣ “T1100 is a myth / just one layer”
I’m fully aware of this marketing trick. I’m not asking for full T1100, which is unrealistic. What I’m after is a frame with EPS molding and confirmed T1100 layers strategically placed (head tube, BB, stays), similar to FACT 12r layup. This is exactly how top brands achieve stiffness-to-weight – it’s not about slapping one decorative layer of T1100.
3️⃣ “Resale value matters”
Resale is completely irrelevant here. This is a prototype-level build, meant to be a unique, custom bike – not something to flip later. If resale was the goal, I’d just buy a used Canyon or Giant and be done.
In short, I’m not chasing cheap carbon nor blindly believing marketing claims. I’m specifically exploring real factory-sourced, EPS-molded frames with credible high-end layups. That’s a very different discussion from generic $500 clones
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If you knew more about the OEM market, you'd probably realize that there's less difference between your dream frame and a 500$ frame, i can guarantee you that. It doesn't sound like you have a great grasp of the value chain, where markups are added and so on. That said, by all means, spend your money. You want a boutique bike, kudos to you, enjoy it.
One recent note: Sander on the forum, riding his Sworks and his tantan, wrote that riding the sworks now gives him anxiety because of how much money he sunk in it, and the fear of breaking something on it. I thought that made a ton of sense. I have a friend with an sworks, he's kind of the same. I made him ride 2 gravel sections in the last few weeks during rides, both super tame, and he went aaaaaape shit because he was afraid his frame would get scratched. He straight up insulted me. He kind of spent his wife's money on it.
I'll go wipe down the sweat on my $400 frame now :)
Caustic Serge. J’adore ! ;D
He is right. They make money on you with 600$ frames. Imagine the margin on a 5000$ frame.
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If you knew more about the OEM market, you'd probably realize that there's less difference between your dream frame and a 500$ frame, i can guarantee you that. It doesn't sound like you have a great grasp of the value chain, where markups are added and so on. That said, by all means, spend your money. You want a boutique bike, kudos to you, enjoy it.
One interesting recent note: Sander on the forum, riding his Sworks and his tantan, wrote that riding the sworks now gives him anxiety because of how much money he sunk in it, and the fear of breaking something on it. I thought that made a ton of sense. I have a friend with an sworks, he's kind of the same. I made him ride 2 gravel sections in the last few weeks during rides, both super tame, and he went aaaaaape shit because he was afraid his frame would get scratched. He straight up insulted me. He kind of spent his wife's money on it.
I'll go wipe down the sweat on my $400 frame now :)
Pretty much what I wanted to say! A lot of people still believe the blink blink branded bike is expensive because they are significantly better / safer...
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Many of us gives to much credit to the western brands, I do appreciate that a frame cost goes to research and more people working for the company than my frame but the prices of the frames are stupidly expensive , I am abusing the hell out of this bike
And consider it like any other frame, not worrying that something might go wrong.
Love this bike and the frame was way less the 1000$
I saw also the equivalent tantán and the quality looks way less than my frame.
I would not recommend to spend 4K if you are on the budget. My all bike was around 3.2k€ and they are not that heavy (never checked I guess 7.5 )You also have elves which have few frames that I like and they are not more than 1k
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Many of us gives to much credit to the western brands, I do appreciate that a frame cost goes to research and more people working for the company than my frame but the prices of the frames are stupidly expensive , I am abusing the hell out of this bike
And consider it like any other frame, not worrying that something might go wrong.
Love this bike and the frame was way less the 1000$
I saw also the equivalent tantán and the quality looks way less than my frame.
I would not recommend to spend 4K if you are on the budget. My all bike was around 3.2k€ and they are not that heavy (never checked I guess 7.5 )You also have elves which have few frames that I like and they are not more than 1k
OP wrote no replicas or low-cost clones right in the first line of his post, spelling out requirements. You keep pushing your counterfeit Bora Team Edition SL8, which, despite all the logos, in that picture, looks an obvious fake. Why?
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Cause ALL the sl8 like frames on Ali are counted as fakes just as mine
Mine only have decals but they all use the same mold
Only different manufacturers and some are the same.
But that’s fine who cares you won’t see me post this bike again
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Well, Serge is right — I am a bit precious about the genuine SL8. Unless you’re a pro or have money to burn, no one wants to crash. I’ve got the bike insured, but let’s be honest — that doesn’t really help. If you have to claim, it’s usually a nightmare, and your premium will shoot up the next year.
That said, I absolutely love that bike. But I’m also really pleased with what I’ve built using the X68. Sure, the frame might be an SL8 copy, but for $600 USD it’s great value. The fork issue isn’t great, but then I watched RhinoWorkshop’s Instagram stories where he was building up the new V5RS — and he was pointing out just how crap it was. That frame costs £5,500, and it looked shockingly bad.
Whether it’s £600 or £6,000, in the end it all comes down to one thing: margins and profits.
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Not the only Colnago with issues, look at the last few posts in the WW v4rs thread. A shocking number have shown up with toptube defects, apparently due to finish work weakening the bonded area. So there's that.
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IDK, i think you all are reading too much into the idea that higher cost should equal higher quality of manufacturing.
A lot of the cost of bike frames comes from trying to engineer out every little bit of advantage. Whether or not the frame is made well is almost a different question. Obviously, the best brands manage to do both, but Colnago...is Colnago. It's worth noting that Astana is riding frames from XDS this year, and at retail, where they are sold, they are more expensive than the frames used by:
1. Q 36.5 who runs the standard, not SL, Scott Addict HMX
2. AG2R on any of their Van Rysels
3. Intermarche on their Cube bikes
While they are cheaper than Giant and I think Merida frames, owning the production from end to end does not seem to be helping XDS churn out a cheaper bike.
That said, I think buying a lower-spec Scott Addict (like Rival or 105 di2) and then modding it with wheels, cranks, and a cockpit from XMCarbonspeed seems like the way to go, cost-wise, if you want to have a lower-cost rocket of a bike.
[Edited for clarity]
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Nah. I don't think the folks here are here bc we think that the larger brands have a higher inherent quality. They do most likely have higher q/c. But not order of magnitude.
I have good friends on Colnagos, but they also wear watch brands that ae known to churn etc. Colnago was special in the 90's and aughts, but now are just pretty much in Campy's court, let's be the LV of bikes. Yeah, they spent a ton of money on the YR to optimize shapes but apparently ignored other factors. Tadej could win on a Huffy.
I don't disagree that out and out fakes are perhaps morally bankrupt, but to some extent tantan et al have shown that the emperor has no clothes.
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IDK, i think you all are reading too much into the idea that higher cost should equal higher quality of manufacturing.
A lot of the cost of bike frames comes from trying to engineer out every little bit of advantage. Whether or not the frame is made well is almost a different question. Obviously, the best brands manage to do both, but Colnago...is Colnago. It's worth noting that Astana is riding frames from XDS this year, and at retail, where they are sold, they are more expensive than the frames used by:
1. Q 36.5 who runs the standard, not SL, Scott Addict HMX
2. AG2R on any of their Van Rysels
3. Intermarche on their Cube bikes
While they are cheaper than Giant and I think Merida frames, owning the production from end to end does not seem to be helping XDS churn out a cheaper bike.
That said, I think buying a lower-spec Scott Addict (like Rival or 105 di2) and then modding it with wheels, cranks, and a cockpit from XMCarbonspeed seems like the way to go, cost-wise, if you want to have a lower-cost rocket of a bike.
[Edited for clarity]
Out of curiosity, can I ask you a question? Do you believe for most branded bike frames, they cost significantly higher because they geniunely are "trying to engineer out every little bit of advantage"?
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Yes. But it's not a compliment. It doesn't always seem to work out.
A lot of folks here seem to look at a Factor (since we know the cost) or SL8 and see that they spend ~400USD on carbon that they must be rolling in the profits, but they aren't.
Other than Specialized, no brand that makes multiple layups of their frames have the top ones raced at the highest level. Another huge reason these bikes cost more are things like Scott using a 1 1/16 eccentric steerer on the Addict or Cannondale's delta steerer for a slimmed down front end. You end up probably with a 2x multiplier over factory cost to help pay for layups that aren't raced and the engineering hours that go into those small changes across the design. Combine that with costs to support retail operations and you end up with frames that cost 5-6x their factory cost at retail. That multiple doesnt even include better QC or paying for better factory employees. I think it's telling that even the Chinese brands connected to these factories trying to replicate the big brand model arent really doing better. It it worth the premium?
Thats up to you to decide, but I picked up the LTK-266-SL because I wanted the regular ol 1 1/8 steerer, 52mm headset bearings, and the Ritchey style saddle clamp. Yes its basically a collection of reference designs, but I prefer that in my case
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but I picked up the LT-K266-SL because I wanted the regular ol 1 1/8 steerer, 52mm headset bearings, and the Ritchey style saddle clamp. Yes its basically a collection of reference designs, but I prefer that in my case
I cannot stress enough how practical and pragmatic this design approach to frames has been for me this season. My last 3 or 4 bike builds have all coincidentally used the FSA bearing standard for the headset. Being able to swap ACR/SMR handlebars, spacers, and headset dust covers like FSA No.69 has made my building experience actually pleasurable. Even Peter's XM CarbonSpeed new 1-piece cockpit uses the FSA standard.
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What does that mean, could you please link to the stuff you're talking about? That sounds important and I like simplicity. Most OEM frames come with roughly the same spacers, but there are variations and it can get messy. Definitely interested in something standardised that works.
Cost wise, is there an OEM version, or you HAVE to buy from FSA?
Thanks
FSA, Deda, and Token designs share the same reference design, where the 45-degree chamfer for the bearing sits 8.7mm below the top edge of the headtube. The headtube is sized for nominal 52mm bearings (this is 51.8mm in practice since you tolerance small as this is not a pressfit). This means that any frame following the reference should be able to have a headset replaced with any of those brands. The LTK 266 SL does follow the reference as should any frame that lists the FSA No. 55 ACR as its primary headset. If you want to save yourself a headache, buy one of these frames.
Regarding headsets, I would still buy them from FSA, Deda, or Token as they are the OEM option used by most big brands. If you only want to buy bearings in bulk, I would recommend the ACB518K or MR127 (same bearing). You can then buy ACR-compatible C Rings and top caps from FSA or Deda in bulk. I doubt this will save any money, though Deda does usually include the C ring and top cap to fit this specific bearing with their stems and bars and some aftermarket barstem options do the same.
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@Sakizashi summed it up very well. Thank you kind sir!
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And regarding the bearings you can get all different versions from Kugellager-Shop, even the SLT option that CeramicSpeed sells for a bunch of money. Sometimes you have to buy bearings with different height to match design approaches of some framesets.
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And regarding the bearings you can get all different versions from Kugellager-Shop, even the SLT option that CeramicSpeed sells for a bunch of money. Sometimes you have to buy bearings with different height to match design approaches of some framesets.
A frame that is truly using the reference design should use two bearings of the same size. These headset companies have it figured out; it's the bike frame designers that ruin this for us, just like custom versions of UDH, and bottom brackets, etc.
Kugellager-Shop does not sell stainless steel solid oil bearings, like those used by CeramicSpeed. I don't think there is any application for stainless solid oil except for bikes, and I would rather get a regular stainless bearing than black oxide + solid oil. If I were a heavy rider who damaged headset bearings by making the notchy over time, I would think about the solid oil option more favorably.
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In my case, the lower bearing uses 8 mm height whereas the upper bearing comes with 7 mm. You also have to change the lower bearing if the fork uses an integrated crown race as FSA ACR has a different inner angle of 36 degree.
You are right, the solid oil bearings from Kugellager Shop use black oxide. But overall you get a broad choice of every bearing you need.
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If you knew more about the OEM market, you'd probably realize that there's less difference between your dream frame and a 500$ frame, i can guarantee you that. It doesn't sound like you have a great grasp of the value chain, where markups are added and so on. That said, by all means, spend your money. You want a boutique bike, kudos to you, enjoy it.
One interesting recent note: Sander on the forum, riding his Sworks and his tantan, wrote that riding the sworks now gives him anxiety because of how much money he sunk in it, and the fear of breaking something on it. I thought that made a ton of sense. I have a friend with an sworks, he's kind of the same. I made him ride 2 gravel sections in the last few weeks during rides, both super tame, and he went aaaaaape shit because he was afraid his frame would get scratched. He straight up insulted me. He kind of spent his wife's money on it.
I'll go wipe down the sweat on my $400 frame now :)
Ah yes, the classic “all frames are basically the same once the sticker’s off” theory.
Thanks for the OEM economics 101, really enlightening. I guess the only thing separating a 500$ clone from a clean EPS-molded T1100 layup is… ignorance? Or maybe a sticker printer shortage in Shenzhen?
Appreciate the perspective — but let’s not confuse price with spec.
I’m not chasing logos or paying retail markups. I’m not building a wall ornament either. This is a focused, research-driven build exploring the upper edge of OEM capabilities:
• EPS molding only (no bladders)
• Layups with verified high-modulus zones
•Target frame weight under 800g
•Confirmed geometry, tolerances and molding method
That’s a different pursuit from buying generic shells and crossing fingers.
If someone wants a $500 gravel beater and sleeps well at night — good for them.
But saying “there’s no real difference” between a carefully engineered layup and a random bladder-molded replica? That only shows you’ve never studied real layups up close — let alone cracked one open.
And sure, if I already knew everything about the OEM world, I’d clearly not be here asking smart people for help, right?
Anyway, cool story about your friend having trauma over his S-Works. Sounds like he needs a therapist more than a new bike;)
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There has been an uptick of individuals joining this forum with blatantly self-serving behavior, yet failing to read the room of whom the experienced folks are in here.
I'm not the morality or etiquette police. And this isn't Weight Weenies. This is sub-genre forum of well-meaning people who can look past the BS of most major brands. Perhaps contributing in a productive manner rather than disregarding the people who have already answered your question would have you fare better in here.
We looking forward to seeing your contributions in the coming months.
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Ah yes, the classic “all frames are basically the same once the sticker’s off” theory.
Thanks for the OEM economics 101, really enlightening. I guess the only thing separating a 500$ clone from a clean EPS-molded T1100 layup is… ignorance? Or maybe a sticker printer shortage in Shenzhen?
Appreciate the perspective — but let’s not confuse price with spec.
I’m not chasing logos or paying retail markups. I’m not building a wall ornament either. This is a focused, research-driven build exploring the upper edge of OEM capabilities:
• EPS molding only (no bladders)
• Layups with verified high-modulus zones
•Target frame weight under 800g
•Confirmed geometry, tolerances and molding method
That’s a different pursuit from buying generic shells and crossing fingers.
If someone wants a $500 gravel beater and sleeps well at night — good for them.
But saying “there’s no real difference” between a carefully engineered layup and a random bladder-molded replica? That only shows you’ve never studied real layups up close — let alone cracked one open.
And sure, if I already knew everything about the OEM world, I’d clearly not be here asking smart people for help, right?
Anyway, cool story about your friend having trauma over his S-Works. Sounds like he needs a therapist more than a new bike;)
I need a therapist 😂 thanks! but I have the bike you want in reality 😁
There’s not a significant gap between OEMs and major brands, as it’s typically the OEMs who handle most of the testing and product development—even for well-known brands. While a few larger brands may lead their own design work, they still often rely on the expertise of Chinese OEM engineers.
In reality, most brands don’t manufacture anything themselves; their main role is marketing, packaging, and selling the products developed and produced by OEMs.
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There has been an uptick of individuals joining this forum with blatantly self-serving behavior, yet failing to read the room of whom the experienced folks are in here.
I'm not the morality or etiquette police. And this isn't Weight Weenies. This is sub-genre forum of well-meaning people who can look past the BS of most major brands. Perhaps contributing in a productive manner rather than disregarding the people who have already answered your question would have you fare better in here.
We looking forward to seeing your contributions in the coming months.
Not all of us are here because we believe the big brands are peddling BS. There's a little bit of rocks in glass houses in that statement. Just a little tho.
Some of us are using this as a way to learn and discover what is out there beyond what gets marketed to us. That said, I don't disagree that OP is being very abrasive.
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There’s not a significant gap between OEMs and major brands, as it’s typically the OEMs who handle most of the testing and product development—even for well-known brands. While a few larger brands may lead their own design work, they still often rely on the expertise of Chinese OEM engineers.
In reality, most brands don’t manufacture anything themselves; their main role is marketing, packaging, and selling the products developed and produced by OEMs.
This is part of the myth that is often peddled by many people here. IME, this is not true. From what I have gathered, the general expertise is primarily in mold design, layup, and structural design. The latter is where there is overlap with many factories and top bike brands. This type of overlap, though, is necessary and something you see in every industry where a company leans on its supply base for innovation. The reason so many of these Chinese companies currently have struggles with bearings wearing out after a season of riding, endcaps that don't fit, seatposts that slip, headset bearings, and front ends that don't fit together correctly, etc., is that their product development processes are either not mature or don't exist. This gap is significant and is also why Chinese brands Seka, Evolve, and QuickPro have found room to operate, and why their prices are significantly higher than those of the OEMs they use or are a part of.
For some of these frames, gaps are closed by members of this forum, who provide fixes and redesign parts that should work out of the box. For example, how many collective hours went into troubleshooting the Velobuild headsets?
Of course, there are exceptions. I 100% would trust Peter from XM Carbonspeed to develop a product, but he isn't cheap. ;D.
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I'm sorry i offended you.
I never wrote “all frames are basically the same once the sticker’s off”
I never wrote “there’s no real difference” between frames.
You so clearly dont know what you're talking about, it's crazy that you have the hubris to attack users.
Consider dealing with your fragile ego, learning what nuance means, and good luck.
Thanks for your reply my ego is doing just fine don’t worry;)
I can understand that the tone of my initial message may have come across as a bit sharp — that wasn’t my intention at all. I wasn’t aiming at anyone personally, nor trying to create any tension.
My goal here is simply to learn as much as possible in order to carry out a project that really matters to me.
I’m not an expert — and that’s exactly why I’m here: to ask questions, understand the technical differences between OEM frames, and learn from people with more experience.
I’m currently looking for a high-quality OEM frame, with a demanding set of criteria, and I’m fully prepared to put a real budget into it — not to build a showroom bike, but something personal, based on informed and deliberate choices from start to finish.
That’s why I’m digging into topics like EPS molding, layup structure, and manufacturing tolerances.
If my message came off as too blunt or too direct, I apologize — it wasn’t meant that way. I’m not here to challenge anyone or create conflict.
I’m here to learn, share ideas, and move forward with my project, while respecting everyone’s input and experience.
Thanks again for your reply — I’m looking forward to more constructive and technical discussions ahead.
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There has been an uptick of individuals joining this forum with blatantly self-serving behavior, yet failing to read the room of whom the experienced folks are in here.
I'm not the morality or etiquette police. And this isn't Weight Weenies. This is sub-genre forum of well-meaning people who can look past the BS of most major brands. Perhaps contributing in a productive manner rather than disregarding the people who have already answered your question would have you fare better in here.
We looking forward to seeing your contributions in the coming months.
Thanks for the reminder — I fully understand the spirit of this forum, and it’s exactly why I’m here: out of respect for the quality of discussions and the depth of knowledge being shared.
That said, I’m not sure what specific behavior you’re referring to. I do take the time to read through the replies people post — especially when they’re sharing useful insights or technical details I can actually learn from.
I’m not here to take shortcuts or rehash basic topics, but to genuinely understand what’s possible with high-end OEM frames, and to engage with people who’ve already dug deep into this world.
I know I’m not an expert — that’s why I’m here. I’m asking questions in good faith, trying to learn, and doing my best to contribute when I can.
So yes, I’m here to participate constructively, and I look forward to being part of the conversation in the long run. Appreciate the welcome, and see you in the tech threads
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This is part of the myth that is often peddled by many people here. IME, this is not true. From what I have gathered, the general expertise is primarily in mold design, layup, and structural design. The latter is where there is overlap with many factories and top bike brands. This type of overlap, though, is necessary and something you see in every industry where a company leans on its supply base for innovation. The reason so many of these Chinese companies currently have struggles with bearings wearing out after a season of riding, endcaps that don't fit, seatposts that slip, headset bearings, and front ends that don't fit together correctly, etc., is that their product development processes are either not mature or don't exist. This gap is significant and is also why Chinese brands Seka, Evolve, and QuickPro have found room to operate, and why their prices are significantly higher than those of the OEMs they use or are a part of.
For some of these frames, gaps are closed by members of this forum, who provide fixes and redesign parts that should work out of the box. For example, how many collective hours went into troubleshooting the Velobuild headsets?
Of course, there are exceptions. I 100% would trust Peter from XM Carbonspeed to develop a product, but he isn't cheap. ;D.
who is Peter ? Proxy? Seller? Thk u.
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who is Peter ? Proxy? Seller? Thk u.
Peter from XM carbon Speed.
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Peter is often cited here as an example of a oem that is short on bs and long on product development and production. He does frames as well, his "gran turisimo" is similar to what you're looking for, except for the t1000.
FWIW, even the major brands use t1000 sparingly as its fragile. Light, but stiff and easy to fracture. Plus very costly. Beware anyone marketing a frame to you as "t1000". A major bike using 25-30% t1000 would be a lot of t1000.
Wheels are another matter, folks use more "t1000" or m40 in those to achieve startling low weights, but they're structures with the carbon tensioned, adding to strength.
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who is Peter ? Proxy? Seller? Thk u.
Peter is someone who develops products and shares them here. Why would I trust him? His products have a good track record here and in other places. Most importantly tho, he iterates designs fast and doesn't overlook details.
He isn't the only one tho, my THR industries hubs are fantastic and the supplied rims exceeded my expectations. While not expensive those are not cheap products.
For a frame, there is one open mold frame that meets most of your requirements, but it lacks the aero element of the SL8 and I don't know if anyone can provide verification of material like you are asking. https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,6158.0.html
Check out the LTK266-D-Sl at that link. It is an open mold, but Long Teng has been around the open mold scene nearly as long as Flybike and they have a consistently positive reputation.
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Thanks a lot for the info and the link, really appreciate you sharing it! It’s very helpful for my research:)
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Thanks for the info, I’ll take a closer look at it!
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Some really good discussion in this thread. I'm enjoying it.
I'm 50, and a retired graphic designer. I've lost years of my life stressing and fighting over taking down other designers who ripped off my work, so that being my journey to where I am today it's understandable why I'm very much against counterfeit goods.
That said some people on Weight Weenies caught me out by spotting a "no logo" Gelu saddle on one of my builds. Sure, some people were real nasty about it (fair enough), but one guy was constructive (like many of you in here are) and well, what he wrote got to me (something along the lines of "that's just how the world is today, like it or not"), and whilst I'm still against counterfeit goods sold as the real thing (imitation logos, packaging etc.) I'm now OK (I think...) with products that take inspiration (all that said I ended up buying a genuine Gelu saddle and man it cost a LOT).
I've spent my whole life buying Giant bicycles. I worked in a bike shop that sold Giant bikes when I was younger so got staff discount. I bought a lot of them because they were such good value for money, but I always dreamed of owning more boutique bicycles.
Fast forward to today; I finally paid off my 17 year mortgage and you know what? Fuck it. I recently sold my house, bought a small apartment and now for the first time in my life I have money so I'm going to spend it on bikes and there's no fucking way I'm ever going to buy another Giant ever again, ever!
I do not at all feel precious about my S-Works Tarmac SL8. It's just a bicycle and I ride it in all conditions and it's awesome. I have a tonne of Chinese branded products on it, they're great!
My father was Chinese so I'm itching to get busy on an all out build using only Chinese branded products. The wait has been worth it as I see Joe at PP is selling performance tyres now (that really was the last missing piece) and the Magene groupset should be out soon.
The TanTan SL8 copy intrigues me, and I think it would be a fun project but ultimately I already know what the end result will amount to. IE: It's good, but not as good as the real thing, and God forbid I share my thoughts on it in comparison to the real thing if both builds did not have identical parts...
This forum is awesome. Some real knowledge in here, some bullshit, strong opinions, and people of all different values and mindsets. Happy to be here.