Velobuild VB-R-218

[Sebastian]

Just did a 26 mile ride & ran into the following issues  (give me your opinion here folks)

1. Clicking noise.  This may be the rear indexing

2. Chain rub on largest sprocket in rear (11-34)

3. Creaking/swooshing noise if I stand & pedal up a hill & I think this may be the spindle rubbing against that inner bolt
   This is the first time I've heard this since riding this bike

4. Creaking noises from the front of the bike.
    This one is really odd as I can't tell what the heck is causing this or if the Elite Wheels carbon spokes are "twanging" due to wind, since I did not have this noise in the last 5 rides

1. Sounds like an issue with the indexing
2. Where does the chain rub? On the FD? Then it's an FD setup issue. Set the inner limit screw. If the chain rubs in the big/big gear combination, then that's a reminder from your bike to shift to the small ring
3. Sounds weird and could be any number of things. Does it only happen when pedalling? Are your QR skewers properly tightened? Does your tire rub on the chainstay? Do your brake pads rub when yanking on the bike during pedalling while standing? I did have noise coming from brand new Ultra Torque cups on more than one occasion, because the brand new rubber seals make a noise when the crank spindle is rubbing against them. It would usually disappear after a few rides. But that usually sounded like a very high pitched squeaking.
4. Sounds like something coming from any of the interfaces on the front. Check the handlebar grub screws. Are they still torqued correctly? Do you have headset play? Also, I think what @jr223 actually meant, is if you greased the headset bearings when you pressed them into the frame's headtube. Those could creak as well. 

[madmax]

1. Sounds like an issue with the indexing
I redid the FD after the bike shop installed the chainstay (CSD) bracket upside down & I was able to get the front to shift in 2 clicks
Because of all the futzing around in the front the chain line may not be perfect which is probably throwing off the rear indexing

2. Where does the chain rub? On the FD? Then it's an FD setup issue. Set the inner limit screw. If the chain rubs in the big/big gear combination, then that's a reminder from your bike to shift to the small ring
Yes.  Chain rubs against inner part of the FD, when in big/big & thats the only time it does that

3. Sounds weird and could be any number of things. Does it only happen when pedalling? Are your QR skewers properly tightened? Does your tire rub on the chainstay? Do your brake pads rub when yanking on the bike during pedalling while standing? I did have noise coming from brand new Ultra Torque cups on more than one occasion, because the brand new rubber seals make a noise when the crank spindle is rubbing against them. It would usually disappear after a few rides. But that usually sounded like a very high pitched squeaking.

Tires are not rubbing & I will check the skewers (thanks for adding that).  I did switch the grubs from small black alloy steel to the original stainless steel in the front handlebar so that may have caused the issue

4. Sounds like something coming from any of the interfaces on the front. Check the handlebar grub screws. Are they still torqued correctly? Do you have headset play? Also, I think what @jr223 actually meant, is if you greased the headset bearings when you pressed them into the frame's headtube. Those could creak as well.

Zero headset play. Yes every single thing was lubed with PPL-1  or HPG-1 from ParkTool.

I will recheck all screws. Because the saddle fell off on my 1st ride & I had to buy a brand new titanium bolt, I am extremely apprehensive about getting on the bike in case the tech sabotaged it since it's a chinese frame
(Yes, I'm probably being paranoid here, but I had zero creaks before I dropped the bike off & I'm very sure the saddle was torqued correctly by me)

[madmax]

1. Rear clicking issue resolved via index/tension adjuster

2. FD was a lot more challenging because it will now rub on top 2 & bottom 2 (on rears) when the front is large & small respectively
The FD does not have a tension adjuster due to all the cabling being internal & campy is very finicky to set up correctly

Also the techs did strip the low limit screw & at this point I have it set up & can use the single click on left side to micro adjust when shifting from front small to large (with 2 clicks)
The fronts will shift when level, but will not shift under load going uphill & thats ok, I can live with that as long as the other clicks are resolved.

So now for a test ride on sun after it stops raining & see if the BB still creaks & if there are any other odd rattles. My friend who helped me out is pretty experienced on bikes & said he did not hear any BB rubbing or rattles, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed

[Sebastian]

2. FD was a lot more challenging because it will now rub on top 2 & bottom 2 (on rears) when the front is large & small respectively
The FD does not have a tension adjuster due to all the cabling being internal & campy is very finicky to set up correctly.

Your chain rub problem sounds like a non issue to me. I dunno about you but I’m not using these gears anyway. My experience with Campy is that you could try and set it up with no chain rub in all the gears but that might make Front shifting less smooth because the FD’s zero position is too far inboard. That means that a) you might drop the chain when downshifting unless you’re careful to not shift all the way through with your front shifter. And b) You might struggle to upshift in one go unless you remind yourself to trim the FD and shift one click in the outboard direction before actually doing the shift.

I do actually have my limit screws set up so I can slightly overshift on the upshifts and so I can eliminate chain rub in the easiest gear. I love that I can micro trim the FD all the time. It’s become second nature. But you got to get used to this when coming from other systems.

[madmax]

Your chain rub problem sounds like a non issue to me. I dunno about you but I’m not using these gears anyway. My experience with Campy is that you could try and set it up with no chain rub in all the gears but that might make Front shifting less smooth because the FD’s zero position is too far inboard. That means that a) you might drop the chain when downshifting unless you’re careful to not shift all the way through with your front shifter. And b) You might struggle to upshift in one go unless you remind yourself to trim the FD and shift one click in the outboard direction before actually doing the shift.

I do actually have my limit screws set up so I can slightly overshift on the upshifts and so I can eliminate chain rub in the easiest gear. I love that I can micro trim the FD all the time. It’s become second nature. But you got to get used to this when coming from other systems.

Neighbour came down & helped with the clicking issue etc by checking the RD tension.

FD now clicks on front large & top 1 or 2 rears & we finally ran into the micro adjustment feature via 1 click on front & that seems to have solved that issue.
The chain did drop a few times on to the pedal when shifting in front & we finally fixed that & everything shifts, but won't go from small to large in front if there is the slightest incline
This used to work, so maybe we messed up the cable tension

It looks like the inner limit screw head is stripped & I will have to find a replacement for that & remove the existing screw or swap out inner & out screws on the FD.
I think the bike tech really mashed them

After everything was done he (neighbor) took off on the bike & since he is much shorter than me, he had to stand & lean forward & pedal up the hill & down the hill from my home & said
he could not detect any rubbing noise on the crank or any clicks or creaks, so maybe that is a good sign

What was funny was when he came zooming back into the garage with a huge grin & said "Man, I though this was weird, but I finally understand why people like campagnolo and I may switch my old dura-ace to a record group at some point...."   

[coffeebreak]

I love that I can micro trim the FD all the time. It’s become second nature. But you got to get used to this when coming from other systems.

Shimano has always had trim on FD on all their groups. May be SRAM has it too?

[Sebastian]

Shimano has always had trim on FD on all their groups. May be SRAM has it too?

I know. I think you misunderstand what I mean. Campagnolo Ultra Shift on the front is basically almost like a friction shifter with many index points. From the inboard zero position to the outboard most position (aka big ring) you get probably five clicks or more.

What this means is that there’s many more positions you can let your FD “rest in” than on other groupsets. And once you’re used to that, you can basically fine trim your FD position to whatever gear you’re in at the back. You can of course also not care at all and sweep the paddle all the way through in both directions and use it like any other shifter. But I for one love that I never have chain rub.

And like I said, you can also set up your FD so it over shifts in both directions. That means on upshifts you get smoother shifts and once the chain is on the big ring you move the FD one click back. And on the small ring, you got some wiggle room when you’re in the biggest cog in the back so you never get chain rub. You do however have to remind yourself to not move the FD all the way inboard when shifting to the small ring, because that might then lead to dropping the chain.

Like I said: To me it’s second nature. You don’t need to use an Ultra Shift FD like that if you don’t want to. But it’s nice to have the option.

Sram and Shimano to my knowledge had one or max two micro trim positions inbetween shifts. But that’s nothing like Ultra Shift.

[coffeebreak]

I know. I think you misunderstand what I mean. Campagnolo Ultra Shift on the front is basically almost like a friction shifter with many index points. From the inboard zero position to the outboard most position (aka big ring) you get probably five clicks or more.

What this means is that there’s many more positions you can let your FD “rest in” than on other groupsets. And once you’re used to that, you can basically fine trim your FD position to whatever gear you’re in at the back. You can of course also not care at all and sweep the paddle all the way through in both directions and use it like any other shifter. But I for one love that I never have chain rub.

And like I said, you can also set up your FD so it over shifts in both directions. That means on upshifts you get smoother shifts and once the chain is on the big ring you move the FD one click back. And on the small ring, you got some wiggle room when you’re in the biggest cog in the back so you never get chain rub. You do however have to remind yourself to not move the FD all the way inboard when shifting to the small ring, because that might then lead to dropping the chain.

Like I said: To me it’s second nature. You don’t need to use an Ultra Shift FD like that if you don’t want to. But it’s nice to have the option.

Sram and Shimano to my knowledge had one or max two micro trim positions inbetween shifts. But that’s nothing like Ultra Shift.

Yes now it makes sense. The Shimano has two distinct but discrete trim shifts around both the "main" shifts. While it is possible to not have any chain rub in any chainring-rear cog combination it is a little bit of pain to set up perfectly. I was able to fine tune the Ultegra R8000 FD to perfection on my VB build but can never do the R7000 105 FD on my road bike for some reason. I had to take it to a shop to set it up to my satisfaction.

[madmax]

@Sebastian

I think you are also running a 12x2 Campy ?  If so , are you getting any chain rub in any combination ?
I was told that you always get some chain rub on large/large or small/small on 12 spd & it's impossible to not have that on a 12speed

[Sebastian]

@Sebastian

I think you are also running a 12x2 Campy ?  If so , are you getting any chain rub in any combination ?
I was told that you always get some chain rub on large/large or small/small on 12 spd & it's impossible to not have that on a 12speed

No. I’m still running 11sp and on my town bike even 9sp. All Campy. But I don’t see why you shouldnt be able to set up Campy 12sp without chain rub. Provided, that you trim your FD whilst riding, that is. Just like I described above. Just set your limit screws accordingly so you can overshift in both directions   If your chain rubs, just move your FD one click in the respective direction to eliminate it.

[madmax]

No. I’m still running 11sp and on my town bike even 9sp. All Campy. But I don’t see why you shouldnt be able to set up Campy 12sp without chain rub. Provided, that you trim your FD whilst riding, that is. Just like I described above. Just set your limit screws accordingly so you can overshift in both directions   If your chain rubs, just move your FD one click in the respective direction to eliminate it.

1. This might sound like a dumb question, but when you move the inner or outer limit screws on the FD do you see it move ?

2. Also, when in lower gear on front is the FD cable tension tight or is there any slack in it ?

3. Can you shift from front small to large when going up an incline ?   (this might be cable tension related)


I think the FD screw look like they have been stripped & damaged & I'm looking around for a replacement screw without buying a whole new FD
Without screws fine tuning or barrel adjuster I have to do the initial setup as best as I can & hope it will only rub on the large/large combo & then use the FD trim 1 click & that is good enough for me

[Sebastian]

1. This might sound like a dumb question, but when you move the inner or outer limit screws on the FD do you see it move ?

2. Also, when in lower gear on front is the FD cable tension tight or is there any slack in it ?

3. Can you shift from front small to large when going up an incline ?   (this might be cable tension related)


I think the FD screw look like they have been stripped & damaged & I'm looking around for a replacement screw without buying a whole new FD
Without screws fine tuning or barrel adjuster I have to do the initial setup as best as I can & hope it will only rub on the large/large combo & then use the FD trim 1 click & that is good enough for me

Here’s how I do it:

Step 1: Attaching the cable to the FD. Put the chain in the small ring on the front and on the largest cog in the back and set the derailleur with the inner limit screw so it just about doesn’t rub. When adjusting the inner limit screw, you will see the FD move.
This is the front FDs zero position.

Step 2: Pull the cable tight and attach and tighten it to the FD. If it’s a new cable and I haven’t shortened it yet, I might use some pliers to grab and pull it tight.

Step 3: Shift to the big ring on the front and to the smallest cog in the back. Adjust the outer limit screw so you can overshift with the FD, but not too far because you might drop the chain when upshifting otherwise. Now upon setting the outer limit screw you will not see any movement on the FD. The outer limit screw provides a stop for the FD to push against when you upshift. It won’t go further outboard than to where you set the outer limit. And as I said: I set it up so it slightly overshifts and once the chain is in the big ring I move the FD one click back.

As for your question about shifting on inclines: Yes, I can. But you have to give it some thought and release the power on the pedals a bit whe you do the shift. I understand you’ve been using an electronic groupset on your Madone. Probably the biggest advantage on electronic groupsets in my opinion is how great the front shifting works. The electronic motor will force the chain on the big ring no matter what. You don’t have to think about it. But if you time your shift badly the chain might get severely stuck in a way you wouldn’t be able to do it by sheer hand force.

[madmax]

Here’s how I do it:

Step 1: Attaching the cable to the FD. Put the chain in the small ring on the front and on the largest cog in the back and set the derailleur with the inner limit screw so it just about doesn’t rub. When adjusting the inner limit screw, you will see the FD move.
This is the front FDs zero position.

Step 2: Pull the cable tight and attach and tighten it to the FD. If it’s a new cable and I haven’t shortened it yet, I might use some pliers to grab and pull it tight.

Step 3: Shift to the big ring on the front and to the smallest cog in the back. Adjust the outer limit screw so you can overshift with the FD, but not too far because you might drop the chain when upshifting otherwise. Now upon setting the outer limit screw you will not see any movement on the FD. The outer limit screw provides a stop for the FD to push against when you upshift. It won’t go further outboard than to where you set the outer limit. And as I said: I set it up so it slightly overshifts and once the chain is in the big ring I move the FD one click back.

As for your question about shifting on inclines: Yes, I can. But you have to give it some thought and release the power on the pedals a bit whe you do the shift. I understand you’ve been using an electronic groupset on your Madone. Probably the biggest advantage on electronic groupsets in my opinion is how great the front shifting works. The electronic motor will force the chain on the big ring no matter what. You don’t have to think about it. But if you time your shift badly the chain might get severely stuck in a way you wouldn’t be able to do it by sheer hand force.

Perfect response. I followed the steps above, except in my case when you move the inner limit screw you do not see the fd move at all until you actually go in 3 or 4 turns, which is why I think the screw may be broken.

The screw was really tightened down & the head is now almost stripped, which I why I was looking around to see what is being used, so I can replace that part

[Sebastian]

I just realized that my step1 is a bit misleading. Obviously, step 1 is done without the cable attached. that happens in step 2.
No matter how stripped the screw head is, if you get it to turn then the FD should move. Unless you've exceeded the maximum inboard position. At that point, the screw will do nothing more but turn further out and FD is as far inboard as it goes.

[madmax]

I just realized that my step1 is a bit misleading. Obviously, step 1 is done without the cable attached. that happens in step 2.
No matter how stripped the screw head is, if you get it to turn then the FD should move. Unless you've exceeded the maximum inboard position. At that point, the screw will do nothing more but turn further out and FD is as far inboard as it goes.

Well, should the FD move with just a quarter/half/full turn on the screw ?

At this point I think my bike is mocking me and taking perverse delight in my confusion/misery ....aka schadenfreude