Velobuild VB-R-218

[kongo]

Removed the non drive side crank & then tried to remove the UT cup
To my surprise the whole aluminum BB insert/shell started moving & now I'm fairly certain that was the cause of the creak

Is this frame even safe to use anymore ?

See image.  The video is too large to post
[/quote

ouch time for another frame or a good repair service. but it looks done to me.

[kongo]

Did anyone see GC Performance video on the new 2023 budget f series frames? was wondering if that has something todo with his first review of the 218. An how close are they going to be to the 218 as for the carbon lay up.

[Sebastian]

Took bike in to a carbon specialist shop & despite our best attempts we were unable to get the non-drive side threaded insert put from the bottom bracket so it it could be glued back inside
Frame is fine, except now the insert can be moved by hand.

I don’t quite get it. If the BB insert is a one piece unit, you won’t be able to get it out without destroying it, right? If it’s two separate shells on each side, you should be able to pull them out even with one of the Campy BB cups installed. Shouldn’t matter.

And either way, your best chance would probably to glue it at the flanges. Once it doesn’t move anymore you could still thread out the Campy BB cup if you need to.

[carbonazza]

... I will simply add in a small metal insert to make a tiny gap & pour in some Park Tool RC-1, which should flow in & fill gaps & bind everything & stop the moving
though there may be some minor creaking...

When this happened to the kid's bike, we had a good success using the Pattex 1875425 repair paste. While waiting for the new frame.
You put this pasta with your fingers everywhere you can inside during 5' or less
Then place the axle to keep it aligned when it is curing in about 24h

I gave the frame later to another kid, who used it, and never heard back.

[madmax]

When this happened to the kid's bike, we had a good success using the Pattex 1875425 repair paste. While waiting for the new frame.
You put this pasta with your fingers everywhere you can inside during 5' or less
Then place the axle to keep it aligned when it is curing in about 24h

I gave the frame later to another kid, who used it, and never heard back.

Thanks, will check it out and see if taht works better 

See pix, which explain what I'm talking about above
I'm looking at  the RC-1 so it can flow behind the front plate (if its metal)

I also sent the above pix to Chris & asked him to send me a pix of the raw frame without the insert & the insert byotself so I can understand what the part looks like

At the moment, the insert will move if you use a wrench & move the outboard UT cup & that much force is easily generated when pedaling.
Due to the depth of the shell, I'm still thinking of a good way to get the glue around the insert so its a permanent fix

The frame itself is remarkably well built in terms of thickness & I am surprised there was no damage with all the creaking, when I rode it over 100+ miles over a month (10 - 20 mile rides)
& put it through its paces

[madmax]

Bike is back at home.
The shop tried everything to get that insert out and they were unable to do so
They also tried to put in a metal blade between the flange and frame but the fit is extremely tight
The carbon repair guy said the fame was very well made overall, apart from the bb issue, which was probably caused by the other bike shop over torquing the cup past 35nm

Chris at velobuild emailed again and confirmed the outer disc portion is the aluminum flange and the whole thing is molded in place, make it impossible to remove

So now the new plan is to use a 1/16” drill bit and make 2 tiny holes in the bottom carbon until the insert and use a syringe with a hollow needle to pour in some park tool rc-1 compound while another person uses the campy cup tool and wrench to turn the cup and insert so the fluid flows in and expands and binds everything together and that should stop the creaking once and for all

Yes, Velo is sending a replacement frame, so this is more of an experiment to see if this works without chopping up the frame

[coffeebreak]

apart from the bb issue, which was probably caused by the other bike shop over torquing the cup past 35nm

Is it the same shop that 1) Stripped FD mount screws on your frame 2) did not tighten saddle 3) could not tune FD 4) screwed up FD limit bolts?

I think the writing was on the wall. It’s great VB is sending a frame for a damage that very possibly stemmed from improper torquing.

[Sebastian]

the bb issue, which was probably caused by the other bike shop over torquing the cup past 35nm

You'd have to be pretty determined and stupid at the same time to yank hard enough on a BB shell for it to come undone. I think it's unlikely that this was the reason. But judging from what you told us about your LBS so far, who knows?

[Sebastian]

So now the new plan is to use a 1/16” drill bit and make 2 tiny holes in the bottom carbon until the insert and use a syringe with a hollow needle to pour in some park tool rc-1 compound while another person uses the campy cup tool and wrench to turn the cup and insert so the fluid flows in and expands and binds everything together and that should stop the creaking once and for all

I think If I had to do it, I'd probably try and drill into the flange from the DS and NDS and inject the adhesive from there to get it between the flange and the frame. Maybe 4 holes each side or one and then turn it a quarter turn for each injection. It would also give you a lot of contact area between the BB insert and the frame for the adhesive to do its work. I wouldn't drill into the frame from below. Also, I'd be worried to drill too far there and damage the aluminium threading or weaken it.

[madmax]

@ Sebastian

1. No idea what shop did this.   Might be the 2nd one as after I got the bike, the seat bolt fell off & there were clicks during shifting
   I fixed the bolt issue by buying replacement bolts on Amazon & the clicking was fixed via indexing & fixing the csd that was installed upside down
   You and others helped out quite a bit here when you mentioned the micro-trim function & after that I had no issues
   Seat was set at  4nm(front)/ 8nm(rear) per F12 spec & the UT cups were set at 35nm per spec & I am 100% sure there was no creaking

2. The new bike shop is a carbon repair specialist place Element6.us
    They did their best to get that insert out without damaging the frame & gave up & did not charge me anything & make a few suggestions

3. Yes, I can drill from the outside side, but that is aluminum & it is so close to the carbon frame, it will be impossible to not punch through
    Per element6, the bottom shell is rock solid with enough thickness that 1 or 2 holes max to inject in RC-1
    What they don't know/unsure of if the liquid has enough viscosity to flow into any space between inner shell & insert as it does take a wrench to move the UT cup & the whole insert
    ie, You cannot move just with your hand without a a good amount of force

4. Yes, there wll be a replacement frame sent at sometime, I don't know when, so I will have to follow up with Chris to get a tracking #


I've done 116 miles in the 1 month that I was able to ride "Blackbird" & given the amount of abuse on that frame from 2 shops & the incredible amount of torque put on it by standing up & going uphill
& changing front & rear gears at the same time (to test the Campy system),  I think the frame is solidly built & apart from a few niggles, I do think Velo has a good product on their hands.

[Sebastian]

I’ve ridden mine for around 1500km / 930 miles now and no issues. I think it’s solid. Also, the repaired seat post clamping area holds up totally fine. That’s why out of pure laziness I haven’t bothered to build up the replacement frame. It’s hanging on my wall.

I’ve been using this bike on the trainer as well for several weeks now including sprints and FTP tests and the likes. It holds up fine. If anything it’s actually quieter than my Ridley before.

I got a superlight monobloc cassette from SROAD on order plus a set of Bontrager Speed Stop pro brakes. That will shed almost another 200g from this build.

[mattgolt]

The carbon repair guy said the fame was very well made overall, apart from the bb issue, which was probably caused by the other bike shop over torquing the cup past 35nm

This sounds very plausible to me. A new youtube video from Jourdain Coleman just popped into my feed today, with a very similar topic starting at 02:15:

[patliean1]

Main takeaways here:

-Probably stay away from BSA on cheaper frames.
-If insisting on ordering a frame with BSA, order unpainted.

VeloBuild generally does carbon and BB86 well. It's their use of aluminium that gets tricky, even occasionally with fork caliper mounts.

[Sebastian]

Main takeaways here:

-Probably stay away from BSA on cheaper frames.
-If insisting on ordering a frame with BSA, order unpainted.

VeloBuild generally does carbon and BB86 well. It's their use of aluminium that gets tricky, even occasionally with fork caliper mounts.

I don’t think paint is an issue because
a) the residue that some people seemed to have on the BSA threads looked more like resin than paint. I had three of these on my bench and I had no troubles threading in cups on each of them. The threads are not cut very well, though. And
b) The unpainted frame is not actually completely unpainted. The BB area is in fact painted in matte black which is why you can’t see the carbon weave there. They probably did this to hide the areas where they joined the tubes.

[madmax]

Still waiting on replacement frame or an acknowledgment that one will actually be sent out
I was told a couple of weeks ago it would be sent, then a week later they asked me if it was the same address
Yesterday or day before, I asked for a tracking #  & then then they asked again if it was the same shipping address (I have lived in the same home for 10+ years)

I guess I will see a frame at some point in time in the next couple of months & in the meantime going back to my Trek Madone & the vbr-218 will lie dismantled in the garage as all attempts to fix it have failed
It's a shame they didn't use more glue as I really do like the frame

Chris, also mailed out some extra screws & I think that got delayed in the mail, but finally showed up. So they do keep their word, though their tracking system & QC need a bit of work

I don't think anyone here should hesitate to try these frames, as it's a really good experience to learn how to build your own bike & it really is a very nice bike to ride on.