Author Topic: Yishun R086-D Aero Road  (Read 29015 times)

patliean1

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2023, 12:25:14 PM »
Noob question: can I ask why?

Not a noob question at all. Budget frames are supplied with budget hardware. I've found that the default expander plugs on cheap bikes don't grip the steer tube well. And are too short. Over time the headset stack will develop headset play as the plug slips from road vibrations and bumps.

Also running a longer (albeit heavier) plug means you can safely run spacers above the stem and still have the plug extend below the second/lower stem bolt clamping force.

neobiker

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2023, 12:45:53 PM »
Not a noob question at all. Budget frames are supplied with budget hardware. I've found that the default expander plugs on cheap bikes don't grip the steer tube well. And are too short. Over time the headset stack will develop headset play as the plug slips from road vibrations and bumps.

Also running a longer (albeit heavier) plug means you can safely run spacers above the stem and still have the plug extend below the second/lower stem bolt clamping force.

Thanks!

An idea for one of your videos, you could try to summarize your experience or advice when building a bike with cheap components, that could help everyone! It could be the small little tricks to make the build better or easier

s3si1u

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2023, 12:57:05 PM »
Noob question: can I ask why?
Wondering the same. In my experience the Neco expanders are very long but actually pretty low quality.

PLA

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2023, 01:52:43 PM »
Wondering the same. In my experience the Neco expanders are very long but actually pretty low quality.

I've had a similar experience with the poor quality neco expanders. Wouldn't touch them again.
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Dark17

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2023, 03:37:00 PM »
What compression plugs would you guys recommend?
rematistang jempoy (sprinter fred) from The Philippines

Sebastian

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #110 on: October 13, 2023, 11:25:57 PM »
I can recommend the 70mm long version from Deda Elementi. Not available in the US though, IIRC.

Also, it’s not only about having support against the clamping force of the stem. Most shorter expanders provide this as well as the stem obviously sits on top of the steerer and has a stack height of max 40mm. It’s also about providing stability against the bending forces that occur when going over bumps or pulling on the bars. Ideally, if your frame is the correct size and you’re not using a humongous tower of spacers underneath the stem, the expander will protrude all the way or almost until the upper headset bearing. This provides maximum stability.

This for instance is also why Specialized provided super long expanders in their Tarmac SL7 recall. The steerer movement under load meant that the compression ring of the upper headset ate into the carbon steerer until it snapped. The new expander limits this. In my opinion this issue is not isolated to the Tarmac SL7. It’s a problem of internal cable routing designs per se.

Sakizashi

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2023, 01:25:26 AM »
I can recommend the 70mm long version from Deda Elementi. Not available in the US though, IIRC.

Also, it’s not only about having support against the clamping force of the stem. Most shorter expanders provide this as well as the stem obviously sits on top of the steerer and has a stack height of max 40mm. It’s also about providing stability against the bending forces that occur when going over bumps or pulling on the bars. Ideally, if your frame is the correct size and you’re not using a humongous tower of spacers underneath the stem, the expander will protrude all the way or almost until the upper headset bearing. This provides maximum stability.

This for instance is also why Specialized provided super long expanders in their Tarmac SL7 recall. The steerer movement under load meant that the compression ring of the upper headset ate into the carbon steerer until it snapped. The new expander limits this. In my opinion this issue is not isolated to the Tarmac SL7. It’s a problem of internal cable routing designs per se.

The end result is correct, a longer plug is helpful. The reason why isn't correct. It's sort of off topic, but it's worth thinking about in the name of safety of internal routing systems. I've been working on trying to make <2mm over bearing options possible (largely for my own use) and it's really hard because of what's involved and the potential risks of not getting it right.

The majority of the bending forces are borne by the carbon tube. Carbon is exceptionally good at managing loads like that and the expander is fit via a very small amount of friction. It's not going to do a whole lot in terms of keeping that tube rigid and preventing bending. What it does do is that it prevents the carbon tube from shearing locally as it preloads the carbon tube.

Historically a long expander wasn't as critical because the steerer made contact with the compression ring nearly 360 degrees and was held relatively tight against the upper bearing. Even if you lost preload and the bending got worse, the typical symptom was your steerer developing the "ring of death." This meant eventual failure but more often than not seems to be spotted before it led to an accident when riders checked on chronically loose headsets.

The SL7 failures also start with the loss of headset preload. This causes three things to happen. First the bending moment increases exponentially, second the steerer is now facing local impacts against the compression spacer which in the SL7s case was a relatively small surface area part, third the steerer can get worn via movement against the metal spacer and because of the design of that spacer would rapidly develop the "ring of death." These three meant that fork failures happened much faster than on other bikes. The SL7 fix therefore needed to address all three: improved plug, extension hanging off the bottom to limit the effect of those impacts, and a metal ring to be a new wear surface and further distribute forces around the steerer

This is less of a problem for other systems like the FSA ACR because their compression plugs use a different design that's heavier but less likely to lead to preload loss and their C ring has more contact area. Its even less of a problem for the current gen Deda DCR because it uses a nylon spacer that will wear the carbon less and it's designed to fit tightly to the steerer. It's also 15mm deep which has even more contact area.

With all of these systems you should check them every few thousand miles or so even if you have never had any issues with preload to look for wear. If your headset can't hold preload, I would chuck it and replace it with either the FSA or Deda system that fits.

TLDR: Headset preload is more important than ever. Don't ride with a loose headset. Using a high quality insert / expander will certainly help!




Sebastian

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2023, 01:36:09 AM »
Thanks for elaborating, @Sakizashi. Very enlightening!

Dark17

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2023, 06:19:08 AM »
So basically, based on my not-so-good understanding of the issue, compression plug up until upper headset bearing = better right? And failure of headset happens because of short compression plug which results to headset preload and eventual destruction of the steerer?
rematistang jempoy (sprinter fred) from The Philippines

chughes

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2023, 09:39:04 AM »
The Cane Creek Ancora Expansion Plug was designed to take care of the issues mentioned. It was designed specifically for carbon steerers to prevent them from getting damaged. Here is a link to a review of it https://www.roadbikerider.com/ancora-expansion-plug-steerer-tubes/ . Used to used Neco but found that Cane creek held better

Sakizashi

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2023, 01:13:35 PM »
So basically, based on my not-so-good understanding of the issue, compression plug up until upper headset bearing = better right? And failure of headset happens because of short compression plug which results to headset preload and eventual destruction of the steerer?

Once the stem is tight you don't lose preload because of the plug. The issue is the plug moving when adding preload during installation or mitigating damage due to the loss of preload due to an accident on the road that moves the stem (e.g., hitting a pothole). Modern headsets have an inner bearing that's chamfered. The ones where the cables don't pass though use a very thin compression ring to ensure a tight fit and deal with tolerance issues. Most designs need <2nm of preload. The challenge with the headsets designed to pass cables though is that the the compression rings require higher preload. FSA specs 5nm for their ACR system and quite a few others are in the 4nm range. Because of this, using a quality expander plug is critical to prevent it from slipping out during installation.

A longer plug never hurts, but the importance of a longer plug depends on the design of the compression ring. Length helps because it pre-tensions the steerer tube which can help mitigate local damage if preload is lost. However, this kind of damage is less of a risk with the ACR and DCR systems because of the way their compression rings are designed. That also holds true for the Token Cable Box system and the Enve Inroute / Chris King Aeroset. This is why those systems come stock with expansion plugs that are 40-50mm vs. 70mm+

Edit: also wanted to add that on the SL8 Specialized switched to a composite ring, also redesigned with more contact area which reduces the potential for damage, though they still have a very long extension under their expander plug
« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 01:39:42 PM by Sakizashi »

patliean1

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2023, 03:18:19 PM »
1000 mile / 1600 km Update

I've been riding my new Giant Propel Advanced Pro for the past two weeks. So switching back to the Yishun really helps put perspective on the frame and it characteristics.

Also I have been using the R086-D with a variety of wheels: Winspace Hyper D67, Elite Drive 65D, Yishun's own wheels, and Yoeleo C50 Pro. A mix between latex and TPU tubes.

Negatives:
-The upper bottle cage mount is too high. While it's easier to grab, it can make putting the bottle back tedious at times. It's probably less aero too and you may not be able to use an extra large bottle without hitting the top tube.

-The gap between the down tube and front wheel. I can't imagine this section being aero since the sizable gap could lead to turbulent air and subsequent drag. Not sure how Yishun could resolve this while keeping the same stack and reach.

Positives:
-The frame is stiff and but not punishing. A $1500-worthy frame for sure and way more exciting to ride than my Yoeleo R12. No detectable power loss through the bottom bracket. Everything "just works" when the speeds get fast. The back end/rear triangle isn't as composed (over bad pavement) as my Propel/AllezSprint/T1500 but decent enough given the price. And superior to all my other sub-$1000 frames.

-The geometry and design as a whole lends itself to be an awesome gran fondo bike. It's not as nimble as the aforementioned bikes but it makes up for it in control.

Even if the R086-D design or geometry isn't for you, I have no reason to believe Yishun's other offerings won't have the same higher level of performance, fit and finish for the price. Pay very close attention to your bike fit and wheel/choice. Not surprising these two areas will dramatically determine who you feel about the frame. You can mitigate the stiffness with 23mm internal wheels with steel spokes. I need to reduce my fleet of aero bikes and the R086-D will probably be the reason I sell my Allez Sprint.

Dark17

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2023, 08:38:10 PM »
1000 mile / 1600 km Update

I've been riding my new Giant Propel Advanced Pro for the past two weeks. So switching back to the Yishun really helps put perspective on the frame and it characteristics.

Also I have been using the R086-D with a variety of wheels: Winspace Hyper D67, Elite Drive 65D, Yishun's own wheels, and Yoeleo C50 Pro. A mix between latex and TPU tubes.

Negatives:
-The upper bottle cage mount is too high. While it's easier to grab, it can make putting the bottle back tedious at times. It's probably less aero too and you may not be able to use an extra large bottle without hitting the top tube.

-The gap between the down tube and front wheel. I can't imagine this section being aero since the sizable gap could lead to turbulent air and subsequent drag. Not sure how Yishun could resolve this while keeping the same stack and reach.

Positives:
-The frame is stiff and but not punishing. A $1500-worthy frame for sure and way more exciting to ride than my Yoeleo R12. No detectable power loss through the bottom bracket. Everything "just works" when the speeds get fast. The back end/rear triangle isn't as composed (over bad pavement) as my Propel/AllezSprint/T1500 but decent enough given the price. And superior to all my other sub-$1000 frames.

-The geometry and design as a whole lends itself to be an awesome gran fondo bike. It's not as nimble as the aforementioned bikes but it makes up for it in control.

Even if the R086-D design or geometry isn't for you, I have no reason to believe Yishun's other offerings won't have the same higher level of performance, fit and finish for the price. Pay very close attention to your bike fit and wheel/choice. Not surprising these two areas will dramatically determine who you feel about the frame. You can mitigate the stiffness with 23mm internal wheels with steel spokes. I need to reduce my fleet of aero bikes and the R086-D will probably be the reason I sell my Allez Sprint.

Please don't give Yishun idea about the price, they might bump up their price even more higher /s

How does this bike compare to the Giant Propel? Of course Giant is much better but what do you think is the difference between the two frames?
rematistang jempoy (sprinter fred) from The Philippines

patliean1

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2023, 09:10:05 PM »
The Propel is not “four times or x4” better than the Yishun. $3000usd versus $750usd. The marginal gains follow the law of diminishing returns. But considering Giant’s competitors, $3000 is a great value for a 2nd tier frame from a big brand.

What the Propel does better than the Yishun is fit finish, warranty, bike handling, and how frame (particularly the rear triangle) responds to bad pavement. Pairing the Yishun with deeper sectioned carbon spoke wheels makes for a harsh ride for most people. More harsh than my Allez Sprint, but not as harsh as my Dengfu or Tan Tan x38.

The Propel does not suffer from this regardless of wheel choice. It’s a very controlled and predictable ride regardless of pavement. Stiff out of the saddle yet comfortable as an entire system. I’m assuming sub $1500 frames obviously don’t have the engineering budget to wind tunnel test their frames or make considerations to carbon layup. Let alone the quality of carbon being used.

In a vacuum, these small differences aren’t major. But collectively as an entire package they make for a superior ride. You can immediately and tangibly feel your riding an engineered bike. Unlike like my Tan Tan x38 and VB 168 where it feels like the factory simply threw a bunch of carbon together with their eyes closed.

CJ

Re: Yishun R086-D Aero Road
« Reply #119 on: October 18, 2023, 09:27:51 PM »
Patrick - Spent 4+ minutes studying your photo trying to locate the stand...did you edit it out?  ???   

My R086-D arrived in 7 days.  I've yet to build it up but the bottle placement on my 500mm seems fine.  Perhaps an issue with larger sizes...

In theory, the geometry suits me perfectly with the added benefit of a lower stack. I race USAC and my strength is getting in long breakaways. I'm known in the area for offering very little draft so I'm very interested if I can keep that CdA advantage rolling with this setup.  I also race a lot of crits so this price-point really makes sense to me from a sustainability standpoint. Win-win.

I'll post pics and feedback once I get this thing on the road.  Cheers!