Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames

[patliean1]

I’m going to be honest here: I very much miss the glory days of this forum during the pandemic years. It was a perfect storm. People were stuck at home with extra discretionary income and free-time, while major bike brands were dealing with fulfillment delays. The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday. I’m lucky to have joined during COVID.

Now I don’t proclaim to be perfect or infallible to constructive criticism. Quite frankly, the support of this forum is a large reason why my YouTube platform even exists. I cannot thank you all enough. Sadly, a lot of the super experienced members don’t come here as often anymore. Perhaps the negative vibes these past 12 months ran them away or just simply their needs changed. Who knows…

What I do know is I plan to keep supporting the forum as long as it makes sense. I’ve started to review more mainstream bikes, but my heart will always have a place for affordable Chinese frames/wheels. It’s how I got my start (Yoeleo R6).

I wanted to write up a quick guide for anyone looking to jump into the world of “cheap” Chinese bikes. While I made a video on this very topic over a year ago, a reminder never hurt anyone.
PLEASE feel free to add your insight and guidance below.

Step 1: Passion Project vs Functionality
As a cycling reviewer, I obviously don’t have any emotional attachments to my bikes. Except for my believed T1500. To me it’s about being functional and fast. If the “best” frame for (my) price range and riding style only offers matte black…I’ll take it every time. Custom paint means nothing to me if the frame is either a noodle or destroys my back. But I’m a performance-first person.

Step 2: Riding Style and Geometry
Can you slam your stem? Cool for you. Do you prefer an endurance style bike? Also very cool. Geometry is critical obviously. I cannot stress seeking a professional bike fit enough. Or just comparing your current bike to your target bikes using something like Geometry Geeks.

Step 3: Budget vs “True” Budget
If your budget is “only $600” for a frame, ask yourself if an extra $300 will be significant to you a year from now. How about an extra $500? How about two years from now? Buy nice or buy twice. Might be worth spending the extra money if you plan to keep your bike for longer than two years. But be warned: cheap bikes are addicting.

Step 4: What is your “pain” threshold for cheap bikes?
Cheap bikes are cheap bikes for a reason. Sort of. The value-add for these types of bikes is you are willing to put in the work yourself to troubleshoot, should bike build problems arise. If you do however find yourself frustrated, fear not! The forum is here to help. Typically the more you spend, the less potential for problems to arise. Or the brand will be faster to rectify. Unless you’re Yoeleo…

Patty’s Brand Picks

$500 - VeloBuild - Custom paint, decent customer service, and solid provided hardware. Both the VB-177 and CX002 are very solid frames for the price. Won’t be the best performing frames ever, but they are “good enough.” You won’t get dropped from a race or fast group ride due to these frames.

$1000 or less - Yishun/Light Carbon - No question one of the best affordable brands/frames you can buy without spending money on a Winspace. Sadly…paint options and frame availability may be questionable since (Yishun) is setup for B2B. But the quality and performance is all there. Fit and finish is really good, except for the plastic headset dust cover on my particular application.

$1600 or less - Winspace - The T1500 has been talked about to death now for 4 years so there really isn’t anything left to cover. If you have the budget for it…buy it. Proven race bike. Fit and finish on par with the major brands.

Wheel Brand Recognition - Elite Wheels, Winspace, and Magene - All 3 brands are great at what they do.

The main thing these brands all have in common is they offer solid customer service. Each of them secretly lurk these forums, which means they are making an effort to listen to what customers want. Despite the fact Yoeleo makes solid bikes too, their customer service has been awful (again) based on customer feedback sent my way. Unfortunately my dealings with these brands for reviews does not translate to me being able to escalate customer complaints.

Always remember the forum is here to help. There are no stupid questions if you’ve taken a little bit of time to research previous threads and watch a few YouTube videos. The more honest and transparent we all are with our questions, the quicker and meaningful the responses will come. Spend the love!

[toxin]

I'd at least add LightBicycle there for wheels

[Sakizashi]

I'd at least add LightBicycle there for wheels

Agree.

I think if you go into nearly any bike shop in a major US metro that has a wheel building person, they will know Light Bicycle at least as a rim supplier. A lot of them will have worked on rims from them via other wheelbuilders who are relatively transparent about their sourcing (like November, NOBL, etc) or built them for themselves. I doubt they would know Winspace, Elite, or Magene.

Step 3: Budget vs “True” Budget
If your budget is “only $600” for a frame, ask yourself if an extra $300 will be significant to you a year from now. How about an extra $500? How about two years from now? Buy nice or buy twice. Might be worth spending the extra money if you plan to keep your bike for longer than two years. But be warned: cheap bikes are addicting.

I think saving money up front on a lower cost frame / group ends up actually being less significant in the total build cost of the bike than people think. Also problems and headaches around headsets, metal parts, cable routing, water killing groupsets, cables fraying, indexing etc. end up costing a lot of money to trouble shoot. Reconciling your quest for knowledge with your overall tolerance for nonsense and your total budget is worth it. Utility is a real thing too. A bike that sits, probably has less value to you than a bike you ride

Step 2: Riding Style and Geometry
Can you slam your stem? Cool for you. Do you prefer an endurance style bike? Also very cool. Geometry is critical obviously. I cannot stress seeking a professional bike fit enough. Or just comparing your current bike to your target bikes using something like Geometry Geeks.

I will add that while stack and reach are great to look at fit the other parts of the geometry chart matter too. Looking popular youtubers, Neil Stanbury of RCA fits a rider very differently Bike Fit James of Cade Media. I wont opine too much on who i think is right vs. not, but there is more to getting a great bike than just fit and there is likely more than one fit that can work really well for you. Forcing a specific frame to an extreme using stems bars, extra spacers, etc. will likely end up with you being unhappy with the bike. Geometries arent randomly generated sets of numbers. In most cases, even for open molds, the engineer has benchmarked other bikes, considered fit data, modeled the handling of these bikes and then determined the numbers making tradeoffs to within their design / budget constraints.

If you look at a recommended size chart and you see yourself going up or down by 2 or 3 sizes or need to add more spacers than the bike comes with: your fit is wrong or the engineers designing the frame didn't do a good job and don't understand how people fit on bikes. In any of those cases, you should probably not buy that frame.

If you can't find a better fitting frame and you are truly a statistical anomaly, its probably time to look into a custom bike.

[Tijoe]

I've been purchasing items off of Aliexpress since 2011.   For the first several years, many of the bicycle parts I purchased were questionable at best, - quality and durability.  It appears to me that when Interbike died, 2018,  the bicycle parts being sold through Aliexpress started to become a lot higher quality, lighter and higher end.  I started shifting more and more of my part purchases to Aliexpress, and/or Alibaba.

I joined Chinertown over a year ago.  Discovered it via a reference someone made in another forum.     I've been a member in 6 other forums for many years.  My interest in all of them has dropped significantly.   Chinertown is where I spend most of my "forum" time these days.   

Every forum I am a member of has ended up losing its appeal over time.  Trolls, too many off topic distractions, the same old topics over and over.  Too many ads. (Verticalscope owned forums.)

So far I enjoy the members on this forum.   Most stay on topic and contribute.  I learn something new here every day...

[PLA]

Re the dust cover... Did yours have a huge gap between it and the frame? Like 3mm or something?

[Yunglord]

Great post Pat!

I think the rougher economic times on top of the world situation have led to a lot of people putting cycling aside.

I would be interested in your personal top 10 of frames if you wouldn't mind sharing something like that and include your mainstream brand frames too!

[patliean1]

Great post Pat!

I think the rougher economic times on top of the world situation have led to a lot of people putting cycling aside.

I would be interested in your personal top 10 of frames if you wouldn't mind sharing something like that and include your mainstream brand frames too!

10. VeloBuild VB-168
9. Dengfu R12 (harshest on the list)
8. TanTan X38
7. VeloBuild VB-177
6. Yoeleo R12
5. 2022 Allez Sprint (most versatile)
4. Yishun R086-D
3. Tavelo Attack (lightest frameset)
2. Giant Propel Advanced Pro
1. Winspace T1500 (best value)

Notes:
-The Dengfu R12 is SUPER stiff. Stiffer than the 168, 177, X38, and R12. Perfect if responsiveness is important to you. However, even with 28c tires it’s tough to live with everyday. Although  I've done 160km rides on it LoL. Dengfu discontinued it I think.

-I’m planning to rebuild my X38 this season. Originally I had to donor the SRAM eTap groupset for my Yishun build. It’s a great looking frame, stands out among other Chinese builds. Makes for a good coffee ride bike, but it could not be my only road bike option. I just found the overall ride dynamics to be neutral and somewhat clumsy, even after initially thinking it was a super stiff ride. YMMV.

-Had I bought my Tavelo Attack before my Giant Propel…I probably would not have bought the Propel. The Tavelo offers 9/10 the dynamics of the Propel for half the price. However, the extra 10% is still noticeable. Having the support of a local bike shop/Giant dealer and essentially a “no questions asked” warranty policy has come in handy for me.

-The biggest disappointment has been both the VB-168 and the Yoeleo R12. The 168 (my particular frame) is a noodle. But the geometry works so well for me. Yoeleo advertises the R12 has a race bike. It is not. Big brand quality paint, 32-34c tire clearance, and great fit and finish. Packaging is some of the best in the biz, better than Giant and Specialized. But it truly is an endurance bike. For the price of the R12 you could almost buy a Yishun/LC frame and a set of wheels from Leon/Yuanan which is a far more compelling offering.

[Takiyaki]

Good thing about the 168 is everyone and their mom has an SL7 clone. Looks wise at least I'm kind of partial to the TFSA version (I forget the model #)

Velobuild seems to be a mixed bag; they seem to be questionable quality wise. I'm torn between a VB-R-066 & Elves Eglath for my next build. Elves seems like a great "Goldilocks" brand- better quality & customer service than something like Velobuild or Dengfu, but not dangerously close to mainstream brands in price like Winspace. I'd probably add ICAN to that list as well.

[coffeebreak]

I got into this back in 2022, so probably after pandemic but effects of pandemic were still on with regards to insane used bike and components prices. That has now cooled down and name brand frames are much cheaper than they were a while ago. Sentiments on forum reflect that. Also true with groupsets as used, foolproof Shimano groups are available at great prices instantly reducing value prop of Chiner groups. I know I would have pulled trigger on LTwoo if situation remained as dire as back in 2021-22.

As for getting Chiner frameset though, I just did it again - Yoeleo R12. It's sitting pretty as I gather parts. In the meantime the VB GF002 is going strong and I have no complaints. There were hiccups of course and as a first time builder this forum helped me a LOT. There were pretty fantastic replies with regards to VB's headset play including Patty your own thread on it, so thank you for that. I know VB is ranked pretty low but I wouldn't hesitate to go with them again. All said and done, for 700 odd bucks I think I landed a phenomenal frame, including not bad colorway. Main reason going with VB was this forum and helpful people (at least back then).

If you don't mind, can you curate your top 10 list to only include Chiner frames?

[Nickvvliet]

Why do you choose for Velobuild and not for TanTan for $500 frames? TanTan is a real manufacturer as I saw in one of your videos right? While Velobuild looks more like a reseller, isn't it?

[Sakizashi]

Just remove #2 and #5 from the list and the rest are chinese brand frames.

One thing that I think about a lot is sourcing of spares and universal components. I am pretty good with CAD and familiar with both metal and the commercial scale 3d printing that use engineering grade plastics so making little odds and ends to fix things like seat post binders and headsets don't scare me that much, but there are some criteria i consider non negotiable on that front.

1. Use of 52mm headset bearings. For internal routing that means 52mm x 40mm nominal headset bearings. I know I can source the 49mm ones Specialized and Cervelo use and even the 42mm ID ones Canyon loves, but realistically, I also want to be able to get high quality C rings and great bearings and not have to mix and match proprietary nonsense.
2. Removable FD hangers. I want to be able to fix these in the case there is a quality issue. Also remove them and print a cover for 1x.
3. UDH. Not because of Transmission compatibility but because it solves a real problem re: sourcing of quality hangers which makes a huge difference in how much time a bike spends on my stand getting the shifting dialed in.
4. Thru Axles. If its got proprietary or hard to find thru axles its a deal breaker. Mavic speed release isnt quite a deal breaker since they are readily available, but its close.

Things I don't care about for bikes usually mentioned on this forum.
1. Aero tube shapes / Rim shapes. Unless the brand shows that they bothered with, at the least, CFD in their development process and then doing benchmarking in a WT, i dont care. Aero tubes without aero development are just a guess, particularly if they deviate from the general NACA profiles.
2. What grade carbon they use. It is really T1000 for Toray or a T1000 like material? Does it matter? How would any of us know? I'd rather see a weight vs. deflection chart
3. Bundled bars. Honestly, most of these look like an afterthought and to point 1 if they arent developed together with the frame are you getting the full benefit? What about fit? Most of these are very wide compared against current trends. Besides I am going to chose one of these frames because I dont want to buy a prebundled setup from a big manufacturer.

[coffeebreak]

Why do you choose for Velobuild and not for TanTan for $500 frames? TanTan is a real manufacturer as I saw in one of your videos right? While Velobuild looks more like a reseller, isn't it?

Communication and the website looked better. Sent mail to TanTan and crickets. Sent mail to VB and Chris responded in an hour, pretty much every communication after that was fast (and I had quite a few). 6 months after I bought the frame, new C ring was shipped immediately after I sent mail. I have no complaints and I accept certain DIY hacks that you have to do with those frames. Back to TanTan, I think it was Rita who did respond after a few days but by then I had already made up my mind. There was a funny discussion here a while ago how VB probably has many customer reps who all just go under one umbrella name - Chris. He is everywhere, floating that company almost singlehandedly!
Oh and its not mentioned here but I must say, Carbonda's communication is really good too. Their overall process looks more professional like the drawings, colors etc. Carbonda/Flybike 696 frame's reviews sort of bolstered my confidence in Chiner frames.

[Wildh24]

Some interesting info on frames on this site. I have more experience on the rim side of things having build a lot of them for myself and friends over the last decade. I think generally a rim is a lot less complicated and much easier to produce an acceptable product. Likely why there are dang many pop up companies out there the last 4-5 years. Carbon wheels used to be extremely expensive from the big names, but competition from one offs has really driven them lower.

I would even venture to say a number of the one offs have surpassed big names offerings. Winspace, etc have reset expectations for what $1200 can buy.

The Winspace frame does look nice but they are approaching big brand prices with some of their newer offerings at $2000.  Unless you have components already I think we're getting into that range of some lower spec big brands and we're starting to see discounting again at the retail level.

[Tijoe]

Several years ago,  I had numerous conversations with manufacturers via Alibaba regarding Carbon rims.   From my perspective, carbon rim manufacturing in China is now a commodity product.  China has several holding companies that are dedicated to engineering,  designing and manufacturing the tooling and molds necessary to lay up and build carbon rims.  For a new company wanting to fabricate carbon rims, the barrier of entry is relatively low.  A new company can also contract with rim foundries that make rims and have their specified rims made for them.

YISHUNBIKE is one example of a company that specifically manufactures carbon rims for wholesalers. 
I believe that the majority of carbon rims sold in "Stores" in Aliexpress are selling rims fabricated in the rim foundries.

Regarding bicycle frames,  Manufacturing technology for carbon frames is still advancing.  Carbon frame manufacturing is a lot more complex than carbon rims.  Over time, there has been a convergence of manufacturing practices that is making it more efficient and easier to make carbon frame.   (Think open mold frames.)   
Optimizing frames for minimal weight, durability and cost is still very time consuming and expensive.  Most Chinese carbon frame manufacturers, higher end frames are in the 80% range for weight,durability and cost.   China tends to lag behind a couple years in the latest fabrication processes that the high end frame manufacturers utilize.
 

[Eddy_Twerckx]

-The biggest disappointment has been both the VB-168 and the Yoeleo R12. The 168 (my particular frame) is a noodle.

I'm actually surprised by this. I don't find it to be any less stiff than my Tarmac SL7. And I'm a pretty big guy around 85kg. My 168 is actually my crit bike right now just because I don't want to crash and break my nice Tarmac. But performance wise I found them to be pretty similar.