Looking for a carbon triathlon frame

[womble73]

Hi All,

I currently run a fuji 2009 original spec in almost new condition, she is the fasted bike I have ever own for a little over 10 years. But I suspect I suffer a lot of lost watts from rolling resistance / crank bearings and not fully tuned setup.
 
After lots of reading across the web and here in particular is think I have narrowed down to a single Chinese manufacture. Frames I have looked at in no particular order. There were a few other brands but I dismissed them quickly for various reasons:
Trifox - No TT frames
Airwolf - No TT frames
Yoeleo - No TT frames
lightcarbon- No Disc brake versions
Twitter - No TT frames
ICAN - No TT frames
Falco - Can't find a website and alix is all old resellers (I read somewhere the molds have been purchased but no real details)
TanTan - No TT frames
Winspace - No TT frames although the T1550 is close (seat tube angle might be too great)
Winow Sports - TT119 but not sold on the look.
Seraph - TT912 has press in BB. Feels a bit old looks like the TT119
Elves - No reviews on their V frame, only one I could find said it "could" be sloppy and has a max weight limit of 100kg. I am a heavier rider but no there yet. Also looks like very mixed quality from their frames still.
VeloBuild - VB-TT-023 I saw a recent build on here and was also leaning towards this based on their frame reviews before looking at the build-up

The bike is primarily for Full Ironman events. One event per year plus the 1000's of km of training rides (Once a week averaging 100 - 150 kms), the rest is done on a indoor trainer bike.

The planned build will be if I can settle on a frame:
Tektro HD-T910 brakes
Sram force ASX running gear (24 speed) with wireless blips (3d printed mounts for the blips)
EliteWheels Full disc rear, 80s spoked on the front (considered the 3 spoke carbon as well). With maybe an 80 spoked spare rear, for race day if cross winds are too much.
EC90 seat

Now for the questions:
Have I missed any frames that people would recommend? Given Elves was top of my budget for a frame, any higher and I will pickup a western brand (I know) from a local store. But the price point is just too much.
For the people who have built the VB-TT-023 or any other disc brake based TT bike how is the ride after months. Is there anything I should look out for?
With the Alix double 11 sales coming up is it better to get from the website and try to ask for a price match or to get it from the "alix offical store"?

The VB frames in general have mixed reviews but seem to have more +ve reviews than most others who do TT bikes, hence why I am leaning towards them.
This is not going to be a cheap build in local currency but I should have a very competitive bike (maybe no the rider) once all is done and hopefully I get another good 10 years out of the bike.

Thanks for all your input.

[Serge_K]

ICAN does have a new TT frame, and it seems the OEM is flybike (the OEM behind carbonda). At least 30mm clearance. The CAD drawing is dated March 2024 so it's very fresh. If you email them you'll get the info.
Speeder also has at least one decent disc model.
What I don't understand is that roadies are all about wider tyres, and TT world isn't, even though they do appear faster. Likewise, 36 or 38cm base bars seem very uncommon although they seem like an obvious way to reduce frontal drag. So I don't understand why it's so hard to find frames that clear wider tyres and why the TT world is still proudly riding 25C tyres.
A concern I have is buying a frame without 32C clearance and it not being future proof. For that, the VB model looks great. 40cm base bar at best though. Also, you can ask Chris for extra spacers and bolts, because by default they won't ship that much stack. I have long legs so I'm likely to need a lot of spacers. The stem has to sit flush with the frame, you can't put spacers underneath like on a road bike.

[womble73]

Thank you for the input.
 
I also have concerns around the wheel width. Which is my exact problem with the current bike. It runs 23's and I could probably run a 25 in a pinch. Making replacing the wheel set for something newer a slightly harder task (not impossible).

It seems in the world of triathlon at least they are slow on trickle down modifications like disc brakes and wider tyres, even tho the proof of a wider tyre gives less rolling resistance and disc's only create a small drag increase (where v brakes were hidden in the first place). It is all about the aero drag of the bike (20%) and rider (80%) figures I saw recently. Given triathletes try to spend most of their time in the aero position it is about comfort and control from that position, so I could see why shorter bars could limit the control aspect by having arms too close together.

I completely agree with your comments about the TT bikes being behind.  Me wanting something that is "newer tech" costs in western branded frames 3 times as much like the latest P-series or shiv. Both difficult to get in frames but will take 30c and run disc's.

I was unaware of the ICAN frame it does not appear on their website and I have messaged them (Also looking at the flybike it maxes out at 25c on website). No TT bike is appearing on the speeder site either. Could be a GEO thing which seems to happen a lot over this way.

I have been in contact with Chris with regards the bar sizing to ensure that they would fit the tektro brakes and have been happy with the promptness. Thanks for the info on the spacers I will need more as I am planning on going a smaller frame with a shorter crank arms. My current bike is a "slammed" configuration as that is what they did in the day, so I expect the base bars to still be slammed.

[Serge_K]

ICAN TT017 https://www.icanbikes.com/Products-list/carbon-tt-bike-frame/
Flybike / Carbonda FM1366
Same frame afaik. Unsure whether one OEMs for the other, or if ICAN may be getting the frames from another OEM. But I suspect it's simple, and Flybike sells to ICAN.
You can email Wing & Crystal about it.
They dont have size Medium until December, apparently.

Tantan does have TT bikes btw.
http://tantancycling.com/index.php?_m=mod_product&_a=view&p_id=1122
TT912, TT913.
Someone on this forum says his TT912 does clear 32C. The 913 is much newer.

Miracle bikes also has TT bikes: http://mira-factory.com/Product/detail/id/14.html (same as Tantan 912, afaik, so probably an open mould?)

On brands, i wouldnt spend money on Trifox Airwolf or twitter. Yoeleo is a brand selling 500 frames for 1000, so not a value play. Lightcarbon is making me anxious with the horrid QC of some of the frames they've shipped to people on this forum - Velobuild, for eg, hasn't had that kind of bad press in years, as far as i can tell on this forum....
Ican is a brand, but the quote i got for the TT017 is competitive, so definitely considering them.
I've built 2 winow frames. Not the biggest fan, better tolerances & better sales rep interaction with Long Teng.
Elves, never.
That's purely my perspective, not meant to be gospel.

Me wanting something that is "newer tech" costs in western branded frames 3 times as much like the latest P-series or shiv. Both difficult to get in frames but will take 30c and run disc's.

Do you mean that there are brands that are up to date in terms of tyre width best practices, and they're so niche they're even more expensive than Specialized and the likes? Very curious to see their products & marketing.

I don't want to sound like a coolaid drinker, but i've rebuilt my rim supersix hi mod with 25mm (expensive) tubulars, whole bike weighs 6kg, and done a couple of rides on it, after riding my LT268 for the whole season. It feels bad descending because it's jittery AF (tyres), it feels bad on bad tarmac (tyres), i'm not materially faster uphill (comparing max efforts). That frame is the himod model from 2015, which Sagan raced on (ie highest tier carbon). Wheels are Campagnolo bora one. Sram red crank. Expensive tubulars. Rebuilt myself. And it feels great to ride a 6kg bike, and on good asphalt, you're tempted to surge out of the saddle on every little climb, i feels super stiff & agile (probably mostly because of the 105psi tyres and 6kg weight), vs my Tractor is just that: a tractor. The tractor climbing at 10kmh doesnt feel as nice. But it's at worst not slower uphill (limited data, but i doubt i'm wrong), and absolutely faster downhill & on the flat (quite dramatically).
I also sold earlier in the year my giant propel set up with 25mm GP5000 clinchers because the Tractor was so much nicer to ride on the same roads so i figured i wouldn't really want to ride the giant anymore.

And so, it bothers me to hear that TT / triathlon dudes are happy with 23 and 25mm tyres. Especially triathletes, where the whole point is to do a sustainable effort and getting every bit of speed out of a given effort (rather than maybe a short TT where somehow you feel like, maybe like a hill climb, that you want a super stiff bike blablabla. You can't underplay comfort in triathlon context.

Btw, 36cm bars are shit to sprint with, but i'd rather go downhill with my tractor w 36cm bars than my supersix with 42cm bars. You dont need wide bars to control a descent, and very few routes / races where you take your TT bike have sketchy downhills. But every second of every minute where you have a 40 or 42cm bar vs a 36cm one, you have more frontal area catching the wind and doing nothing for you.

[rockerplates.de]

Hi All,

I currently run a fuji 2009 original spec in almost new condition, she is the fasted bike I have ever own for a little over 10 years. But I suspect I suffer a lot of lost watts from rolling resistance / crank bearings and not fully tuned setup.
 
After lots of reading across the web and here in particular is think I have narrowed down to a single Chinese manufacture. Frames I have looked at in no particular order. There were a few other brands but I dismissed them quickly for various reasons:
Trifox - No TT frames
Airwolf - No TT frames
Yoeleo - No TT frames
lightcarbon- No Disc brake versions
Twitter - No TT frames
ICAN - No TT frames
Falco - Can't find a website and alix is all old resellers (I read somewhere the molds have been purchased but no real details)
TanTan - No TT frames
Winspace - No TT frames although the T1550 is close (seat tube angle might be too great)
Winow Sports - TT119 but not sold on the look.
Seraph - TT912 has press in BB. Feels a bit old looks like the TT119
Elves - No reviews on their V frame, only one I could find said it "could" be sloppy and has a max weight limit of 100kg. I am a heavier rider but no there yet. Also looks like very mixed quality from their frames still.
VeloBuild - VB-TT-023 I saw a recent build on here and was also leaning towards this based on their frame reviews before looking at the build-up

The bike is primarily for Full Ironman events. One event per year plus the 1000's of km of training rides (Once a week averaging 100 - 150 kms), the rest is done on a indoor trainer bike.

The planned build will be if I can settle on a frame:
Tektro HD-T910 brakes
Sram force ASX running gear (24 speed) with wireless blips (3d printed mounts for the blips)
EliteWheels Full disc rear, 80s spoked on the front (considered the 3 spoke carbon as well). With maybe an 80 spoked spare rear, for race day if cross winds are too much.
EC90 seat

Now for the questions:
Have I missed any frames that people would recommend? Given Elves was top of my budget for a frame, any higher and I will pickup a western brand (I know) from a local store. But the price point is just too much.
For the people who have built the VB-TT-023 or any other disc brake based TT bike how is the ride after months. Is there anything I should look out for?
With the Alix double 11 sales coming up is it better to get from the website and try to ask for a price match or to get it from the "alix offical store"?

The VB frames in general have mixed reviews but seem to have more +ve reviews than most others who do TT bikes, hence why I am leaning towards them.
This is not going to be a cheap build in local currency but I should have a very competitive bike (maybe no the rider) once all is done and hopefully I get another good 10 years out of the bike.

Thanks for all your input.

Hongfu also has a good tt frame with disc brakes, but also a little older.
Regarding rear tire size 28 mm is the normal width on current bikes (what i see on other setups)

[womble73]

Thanks all,

Some other useful frames to compare. Lucky I have time to work through the pros and cons of them all. Sorry for all the questions, my bike knowledge is a little out of date.

I notice the BB of all the other frames are BB386 or BB86 both of which are press fit (is it considered old tech now?). Given this is my first bike build since the 90's (yes I am an old fecker), I was steering towards a frame with the T47 BB.

People talk about frame creaking (misaligned) with the BB386 / BB86 and also that if pressed incorrectly can damage the carbon, crack the frame etc..
But on the other hand the T47 isn't without it problems with alignment being one of the biggest issues and causing drag on the crank bearings. The other being ali bonding to the carbon is difficult. Given this is a high load area that is a little concerning.

Anyone have some real life experience with the different frame tolerances in that area between press fit and screw fit?
BB creak on the frames and tight crank normally requiring a little more effort (a slight love tap with a hammer) to get in place.

Thank you all once again for your knowledge.

[Serge_K]

I notice the BB of all the other frames are BB386 or BB86 both of which are press fit (is it considered old tech now?). Given this is my first bike build since the 90's (yes I am an old fecker), I was steering towards a frame with the T47 BB.

People talk about frame creaking (misaligned) with the BB386 / BB86 and also that if pressed incorrectly can damage the carbon, crack the frame etc..
But on the other hand the T47 isn't without it problems with alignment being one of the biggest issues and causing drag on the crank bearings. The other being ali bonding to the carbon is difficult. Given this is a high load area that is a little concerning.

Anyone have some real life experience with the different frame tolerances in that area between press fit and screw fit?
BB creak on the frames and tight crank normally requiring a little more effort (a slight love tap with a hammer) to get in place.

Thank you all once again for your knowledge.

BB386 / BB86 shouldnt be used to run DUB / 30mm spindles (bearings end up too thin & dont last). So T47 is more versatile / more modern.
Assuming the OEM that made the frame is competent enough,  BB386 / BB86 is fine. Peak Torque has recently mentioned that Shimano BB (the ghetto 2 plastic cups version) is the unsung hero of  BB386 / BB86, because it's very forgiving of poor QC / manufacturing tolerances. I've been using ZTTO alu sleeves BB (2 bits that screw together) for all the BB386 / BB86 frames i've built (on the giant propel i rebuilt there was a rivet in the way so i had to use a shimano in fact), and i've now been using liqui moly 3312 on every conceivable surface, and it's been great. Mechanically, an alu sleeve should be stiffer than the Shimano cups, and it's cheap and easy to order from Alix.
So. All else equal, get the T47 because it's more versatile & future proof. But if you prefer frame A over B, and only B has T47, then dont worry and get A.

And re. Tavelo, nobody should be forced to use shimano cups or remove material themselves from a BB area to prevent the frame from cracking when installing a BB, that's just a farce, especially for the cost. Just dont buy Tavelo.

[raisinberry777]

BB386 / BB86 shouldnt be used to run DUB / 30mm spindles (bearings end up too thin & dont last). So T47 is more versatile / more modern.
Assuming the OEM that made the frame is competent enough,  BB386 / BB86 is fine. Peak Torque has recently mentioned that Shimano BB (the ghetto 2 plastic cups version) is the unsung hero of  BB386 / BB86, because it's very forgiving of poor QC / manufacturing tolerances. I've been using ZTTO alu sleeves BB (2 bits that screw together) for all the BB386 / BB86 frames i've built (on the giant propel i rebuilt there was a rivet in the way so i had to use a shimano in fact), and i've now been using liqui moly 3312 on every conceivable surface, and it's been great. Mechanically, an alu sleeve should be stiffer than the Shimano cups, and it's cheap and easy to order from Alix.
So. All else equal, get the T47 because it's more versatile & future proof. But if you prefer frame A over B, and only B has T47, then dont worry and get A.

Just a note here - BB386 is not the same as BB86. BB386 is designed for oversize (29/30mm) axles and works just fine with them, they use regular size bearings. As a result, it's probably the most future-proof of the press-fit standards.

There has been some caution around using BB86 and SRAM DUB cranks due to the use of undersize bearings. While this is theoretically an issue, many brands that use them across a wide variety of frames (Canyon, Scott, Giant and Merida are probably the biggest brands that use it widely) don't seem to have any issues. I have no practical experience in this respect thing.

I agree with the conclusion though, bottom bracket type shouldn't really play a major role in frame choice. Press-fit is easy to deal with, and there's a variety of kits on AliExpress that make the process very simple (arguably no harder than threading in).

[rockerplates.de]

Just a note here - BB386 is not the same as BB86. BB386 is designed for oversize (29/30mm) axles and works just fine with them, they use regular size bearings. As a result, it's probably the most future-proof of the press-fit standards.

There has been some caution around using BB86 and SRAM DUB cranks due to the use of undersize bearings. While this is theoretically an issue, many brands that use them across a wide variety of frames (Canyon, Scott, Giant and Merida are probably the biggest brands that use it widely) don't seem to have any issues. I have no practical experience in this respect thing.

I agree with the conclusion though, bottom bracket type shouldn't really play a major role in frame choice. Press-fit is easy to deal with, and there's a variety of kits on AliExpress that make the process very simple (arguably no harder than threading in).

HM, i am an old school guy and also in the market of a tt frame....i do not like those pressfit bb, t47 would be a great choice or back to bsa...i have the best results with these kind of bbs...

[Daviddavieboy]

I don't want to sound like a coolaid drinker, but i've rebuilt my rim supersix hi mod with 25mm (expensive) tubulars, whole bike weighs 6kg, and done a couple of rides on it, after riding my LT268 for the whole season. It feels bad descending because it's jittery AF (tyres), it feels bad on bad tarmac (tyres), i'm not materially faster uphill (comparing max efforts). That frame is the himod model from 2015,

 I have the same bike with probably 30,000 km on it (bought new in 2014 full w/full Ultegra). My climbing times were better  than compared to now as well as my sprint but it is NOWHERE as fast (flats/downhill) as this new g056 with gravelking tires and I am a little heavier and lower FTP  . To be honest it wasn't as fast on flats as my older Pinarello race bike that had 60mm HED tubs.

 I am going to be more road focused though. Just confirmed with Peter on the new road frame they have CS-R01. Chain stay is about 42mm at the tire so my goldylocks 35mm tires should fit !