Author Topic: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...  (Read 2006 times)

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2025, 12:59:14 AM »
Thank you all for the feedback so far. There is definitely a trend with a few of the wish list items - we'll do our best to deliver on these ;)

gf

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2025, 01:49:37 AM »
- UDH
- aero design
- 50 mm tyre width
- no internal storage
- ok internal cable routing but with easy way to fit inside handlebar
- mechanical/electronical gear compatibility
- quite comfortable riding position

Cnasta

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2025, 03:47:59 AM »
Maybe someone can move this to the Gravel-forum?


What I like:

Not too heavy (doesn't nee ligthweight, but doesn't need to be overbuild)
Internal cables all the way - yes, can be a pita, but look so much better, ans easier for those with multiple framebags
Racy geometry - also on gravel aero is everything
Tire clearance - normal, doesn't need the widest MTB tires on the market. People who want this could use an overbuild bike any way (see above on weight). Better to go custom steel :)
Internal storage - the best development at this moment I think.
Flat top tube + 2 botle bosses / riv nuts
Fork with mounting options (maybe optional: choice between racefork/backpack fork)

Cheap and good paintjobs! Make some designs that look good and let people have their own 'brandname/logo' added

Discounts if people buy 2 frames, free shipping for second frame + 20% discount would be nice.

Takiyaki

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2025, 05:57:20 AM »
The spirit of gravel is alive at Velobuild haha.

Any word on updates for road frames?

Pkd17

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2025, 07:00:30 AM »
- NO mounting options on the fork (ugly and noone uses it)
- Aero design
- Zero Setback Aero seatpost or normal round seatpost
- Large BB Drop 70-75 to accomodate for shorter crank trend
- Steep steering angle to keep it agile

Sakizashi

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2025, 06:06:48 PM »
Probably not your target market since I already have the bike I want--but building a gravel race frame is tricky because there are so many different kinds of gravel race courses. I think the ideal bike for the old SBT GRVL Black course would have been something like a Specialized Crux, but for a not-muddy Unbound 200 it would be something like the BMC Kaius. From experience in those events, the challenge is focusing the design on the use case that matters. IMO, there are fewer bikes made for the 200+ mile type race event, though that is starting to change. On the other side, it's harder to sell a bike designed for a use case built around an event; only a fraction of people will try and attempt, and only half will finish.

If it were me, I would still pattern the bike after the BMC Kaius in terms of non-custom geometries. To me, a gravel bike focused on racers means:

1. Long reach--about 10mm-20mm longer than bikes like the Specialized Crux. This is needed for FC length as well as toe clearance, but the measure of a good gravel race bike is how well it can take going 40mph on a descent and needing to change lines mid-corner on a loose surface.
2. Tire clearance for 700c x 55mm (29x2.1" MTB) and if possible 650b x 60mm+ (27.5x2.4"). I expect 700c x 50mm to be a widespread size i see at events going forward, so a little wider for those that want it
3. Low BB: Given the wide tire preference, I would consider an 85mm or even 90mm BB drop to really design the bike's handling around a 700c x 50mm tire. This is a big change from many current designs that are designed around a 700c x 35mm or 40mm tire size.
4. UDH
5. I don't think 2x should be an important part of the design. I am currently a 2x rider, but designing for 2x would likely conflict with the tire clearance, which will likely be a more significant consideration and differentiator going forward. I would think of 2x as an option at most, but I would design the bike with the intent of 1x. I would also consider shipping the frame with a chain catcher for 1x rather than a cover if you are making a frame with bosses for an FD mount.
5. Aero frame shapes don't seem to matter as much as aero position on the bike, so I would focus on stem compatibility and consider the integrated bars to be similar dimensions to what BMC offers for the Kaius. Also, people are going to be riding these with pumps, bags, and tools strapped to the bike, as well as a number plate likely in front, so even optimizing for bottles is unlikely to matter when you load it up for racing. Mud clearance is also important, so aero features that require the frame to hug the wheel will probably not work well. Don't be 3T.
6. Avoid the deep aero fork. I really like the feel of the Enve and Open gravel forks, and I would be hesitant to build too stiff a front end on a gravel bike.
7. Mounts: 2 bottles in the frame, one under the DT. Top tube bag bolts. No more. No dynamo wiring. No internal storage. You cant use that in a race and it just adds complexity, weight, and something else that will rattle. Just stick to the essentials.
8. FSA or Deda headsets. I would also use genuine ones or source high-quality stainless bearings because this is a problem area for gravel bikes.
9. Round 27.2mm seat post. Just don't bother with D-shaped. If you race it on gravel, you will break stuff, including saddles and seat post-mounting hardware, so avoiding proprietary parts is essential.
10. Don't bother with comfort gimmicks. If you ride for 12-15 hours at a time, you will probably find that very little of that stuff works.
11. BB should be t47 68mm for ease of access, compatibility, and reliability.
12. Care should be taken to think about how the bike can be assembled/disassembled for travel and cleaning, as a gravel bike that sees even five tough events a year is going to need a lot of cleaning and will probably rack up 10K+km/year in training.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 06:09:16 PM by Sakizashi »

Sebastian

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2025, 12:33:59 AM »
7. Mounts: 2 bottles in the frame, one under the DT. Top tube bag bolts. No more. No dynamo wiring. No internal storage. You cant use that in a race and it just adds complexity, weight, and something else that will rattle. Just stick to the essentials.

Goes to show how many different use cases there are in gravel "racing". I strongly disagree on dynamo wiring. Takes a hole in the downtube and a channel in the fork leg. That's it. The rest can be routed alongside the brake lines. A mount for a taillight is optional - nice to have though. In ultra racing hub dynamos are actually very popular. SON dynamos has just introduced a new lightweight hub dynamo that has been used in the Atlas mountain race. I say there's no harm in adding the feature, certainly no massive weight gain and it would set it apart from a lot of other options out there.
Top tube bolts on the other hand: I added them to my custom steel frame and kind of found that they're useless. There's very few good top tube bags with a bolt on feature. Most of them too flabby in shape and annoying because the knees hit them when out of the saddle. Once they get longer you need additional straps anyway. Once you have a fully laden bike for longer distances, I find I prefer to have stuff in my frame bag and access through a zipper on the side or have it in a compartment on my handlebar bag. I say top tube mounts are the least useful of them all.
I do actually use the mounts on my fork legs. But I agree that for a race bike, you could omit those. If you load your bike aero optimised, you're gonna want to bring all bags in line with the frame and not mount anything to the side of the forks.

Requiem84

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2025, 01:19:21 AM »
Take a very close look at the Ridley Astr RS.

That’s the best looking modern gravel bike, and has some good specs:

- 53mm clearance
- 890g frame weight
- modern geometry (more reach = 407 for size M, less stack = 571 for size M)


Sakizashi

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2025, 11:46:05 AM »
Goes to show how many different use cases there are in gravel "racing". I strongly disagree on dynamo wiring. Takes a hole in the downtube and a channel in the fork leg. That's it. The rest can be routed alongside the brake lines. A mount for a taillight is optional - nice to have though. In ultra racing hub dynamos are actually very popular. SON dynamos has just introduced a new lightweight hub dynamo that has been used in the Atlas mountain race. I say there's no harm in adding the feature, certainly no massive weight gain and it would set it apart from a lot of other options out there.
Top tube bolts on the other hand: I added them to my custom steel frame and kind of found that they're useless. There's very few good top tube bags with a bolt on feature. Most of them too flabby in shape and annoying because the knees hit them when out of the saddle. Once they get longer you need additional straps anyway. Once you have a fully laden bike for longer distances, I find I prefer to have stuff in my frame bag and access through a zipper on the side or have it in a compartment on my handlebar bag. I say top tube mounts are the least useful of them all.
I do actually use the mounts on my fork legs. But I agree that for a race bike, you could omit those. If you load your bike aero optimised, you're gonna want to bring all bags in line with the frame and not mount anything to the side of the forks.

I strongly disagree with this—mostly because I think the bike designed for a multi day bikepacking event like Atlas Mtn race is not the same bike that would be used at the pointy end of a race like Unbound or one of the more terrain challenging UCI gravel qualifiers. Afterall the photos from those multiday bikepackings events also show a large percentage of riders on flatbar bikes with aerobars instead of drop bars.

Dynamo routing does add quite a bit of weight to the fork (100-200g in most cases)—at least from what I have seen. I have literally never seen someone racing with a dynamo setup even at the XL distances of these major events. Building a frameset specifically for this is like building for a 1% use case that most riders dont aspire to as a goal. Its just way too niche.

On the other side most of the elite field (I would guess more than 3/4) in gravel races is running a small top tube bag for fueling in addition to a hydration pack and bottles…So while the bigger ones might not work well, its still a feature a modern gravel race bike needs IMO.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 11:48:58 AM by Sakizashi »

Sebastian

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2025, 01:20:04 PM »
Gravel and gravel racing is just way too diverse to even define what a gravel race bike is supposed to be capable of. Sure there’s unbound. The UCI WC is a very different kind of racing, much less demanding surfaces which is why lots of guys rode road bikes with big tire clearance there. There’s the ultra scene which again is a different kind of thing with different demands. And so on. Since VB asked for suggestions for a race bike that can also appeal to commuters and your typical trendy gravelista, I think it could be a practical feature.

But whatever. Different people like different things.

Sakizashi

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2025, 01:38:27 PM »
The ask was for a race-oriented frame first--the inclusion of other use cases was second. IDK, I just think that bikepacking races are an extreme edge case.

Sebastian

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2025, 01:46:04 PM »
The ask was for a race-oriented frame first--the inclusion of other use cases was second. IDK, I just think that bikepacking races are an extreme edge case.

Matter of perspective. In my „gravel bubble“ overnighters, bikepacking and ultra racing is what most people use their rigs for.

Sakizashi

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2025, 03:04:51 PM »
The demand for what you are asking for is really niche. Big brands do market research to target their offerings, and very few of those big brands offer bike-packing rigs. The big component brands like SRAM and Shimano also don't offer much integration or even proper gearing for loaded setups. Sure, you can argue that it creates room for a niche product to step into, but it's not reflective of the market for gravel bikes unless everyone's research is missing something big.

Dynamos are rare on race bikes. Where is the native dynamo-compatible charging for Di2 or Etap? Sram and Shimano have products to take power from ebike batteries, but not for dynamos. Why? Because so few people own race bikes with dynamos.

Even a bike like the Rodeo Labs Flaanimal, which is very well-featured for multi-day bike packing and racing, is rarely seen with a dynamo hub despite coming with a compatible fork and including routing for a rear light.

Sebastian

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2025, 03:22:00 PM »
The demand for what you are asking for is really niche.

I take your point. All good. It’s probably why me and most of my friends got custom frames for gravel. I’m really curious what VB come up with in the end.

raisinberry777

Re: New VeloBuild gravel race frame in the works...
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2025, 03:41:51 PM »
If I was designing a frame, the last thing I'd do is ask a bunch of random internet strangers what features/geometry it should have.