Custom Waltly Titanium 29er

[bxcc]

I've decided to retire (give to my daughter) my Workswell 062 that's built up as a singlespeed and jump into the world of titanium. I was really hoping to go with a custom Seven build as they are somewhat (4 hour drive) local to me. Unfortunately I cannot justify spending over $3,000 on a hardtail frame at this time. I started looking into some of the custom Chinese manufacturers and I settled on Waltly as they seem to have a good reputation.

I first emailed Waltly on June 3, 2020. While eating my cheerios and checking my email the following morning, I noticed one from Amy from Waltly Titanium. The email was basic and to the point with few details on how the process works. I emailed her back with more information on what I was looking for and our discussion was started. Over 7 days and 34 emails, Amy has been great to deal with. I'm not one to sleep through the night so that has definitely sped up the process as there is a 12 hour difference in time. If I woke up at 1am, I would check my email and try to respond if I could. If not, every email would take 24 hours to process. She will give some feedback on dumb ideas or things that will not work, but overall, it's up to me to get it right. I have no complaints on Amy's communication as it's been as good as can be expected and isn't far off from what Peter would provide.

Overall, I've been happy with my WW 062 frame but I wanted to make some subtle changes. The headtube angle should be slacker, the chainstays should be shorter, the seat tube should be able to handle internal dropper routing, the top tube slightly longer, be able to run a Bushnell EBB, and base all of it off of the new 120mm RS Sid with 35mm stanchions. That seems like a long list but the changes to those measurements is minimal.

This is what I want the frame to look like but with some added reinforcement tubes between the seat tube and each top tube. Similar frame lines to the Kona Honzo. I sent Amy a link to this frame of theirs and asked her to copy the look but add my changes.
https://waltly.en.alibaba.com/product/62314783972-218697100/Direct_Factory_Price_High_Quality_Bicycle_Frame_650b_Titanium_bike_Frame_Small_size.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.41413.16.1fff57dc01Q5Yh

I'm not sure how the geometry numbers will actually ride but I tried to find a happy medium between an XC race bike and a new school enduro sled.
Geometry:
Effective top tube measurement: 635mm
Chainstay length: 425mm
Bottom bracket drop: 60mm
effective seat tube angle: 73.5 degrees
Seat tube length: 450mm
seat post size: 31.6mm
Head tube angle: 68 degrees
Head tube length: 110mm
Head tube bore: 44mm top, 56mm bottom
fork offset: 44mm
fork length: 530mm

Notes:
clearance for 29 x 2.4 in tires
front chainring: 34 tooth
eccentric bottom bracket shell (68mm wide with 54mm bore for Bushnell EBB)
external zip tie cable guides on bottom of top tubes for rear derailleur and rear brake
external zip tie cable guides on right side of down tube for dropper post
internal routing in seat tube for dropper seat post
top tubes to seat tube reinforcement tube with small curve, one per top tube

So with that, here is the drawing she sent me. I'm a little curious on why the seat tube bore is 31.75mm as that seems big for a 31.6 post so I'll inquire about that one. If anything else looks off, PLEASE let me know soon so I can make any required changes.

[carbonazza]

This is a very exciting build ! I look forward to the details.
The straight tubing from the headset to the rear axle+the seat-tube reinforcement, makes it look like the 041, that I just broke two weeks ago in a crash(I'm fine  ).

You probably did that already, but I would double check the clearance for the ring.
Just to be sure, there is a comfortable room for 34T (oval ? is a bit bigger )

You'll go single speed too on that one I guess.
If you change your mind later on, can you put another BB in there?

Did you ask them to make it especially light ?
Do you have an expected weight for the frame ?

I've ordered my Carbonda FM936 and took the Sid 120mm too. So... good choice

I will certainly try the Ti route in the future, but for an adventure, bag ready bike.
So I'm definitely interested on news of your build.

[bxcc]

Thanks, I'm pretty excited for it as well. I wanted it to look as different as a mountain bike can without being wacky.
I'm sorry you broke your bike but glad that you made it out unscathed. 

I asked them to provide enough clearance for a 34t ring as that should clear a 32t oval. That's what is stated on the blueprint as well. I can always run a 30t and drop the rear cog down in size to match the ratio.

Yes, the plan is to keep it as a single speed. My EBB that I have has standard BSA threads so I can definitely run any BB if I choose to run gears. The one issue with the EBB is that I can never get the stated geometry. The EBB is 5mm off of center so essentially the CS and the BB drop both have a 10mm range that I can use. But getting to the middle of both just can't happen. If I want 425mm chainstays, I can only have a 55mm or a 65mm BB drop. Or a 60mm drop can only have CS lengths of 420mm or 430mm. Ideally, if I ever run gears, a 60mm drop with 420mm stays would be great.

I didn't ask them for any specific weight. Getting into double butted tubes ups the price quite a bit. My 062 is just under 21 pounds as it sits. Once this is complete the way I want it with new fork and new wheels, I'll be happy with anything under 23 pounds. I'll drop almost a pound by ditching the Pike and getting the new Sid but I'll be adding almost a pound with the Revive dropper. The EBB with GXP BB vs my current Philcentric could add up to 200g as well. I could always stick with a BSA shell and keep running the Philcentric but there isn't nearly as much adjustment range with that setup.

The FM936 looks like a great frame. You should be happy with that, I know I would be.

I hope it comes out as good as I hope as there's no returns on this one. It isn't the cost of a Seven but it isn't $375 like my WW-062 was. 

[carbonazza]

All the equipment of my late 041 is now on the 062, its retirement as a home trainer will wait.

The BB of your new frame seems well under control 
I ordered a BSA finally for the FM936. Even if they need 45-60 days more for it.
I'm a PF guy... but only BB92 was available, which is too thin for DUB 29mm spindle.
And I have the groupset already.

Waiting for your next episode !

[bxcc]

I still can't get on the home trainer routine. The wife has a nice cyclops one that's a virtual trainer as well. It's cool but I can't seem to get motivated for it. I'd wait the extra month for BSA if it was an option on a squishy bike as well. Not much to go wrong there.

I'm hoping that the BB situation is under control. EBB's get mixed reviews. I thought about going with a PF30 shell as BEER components and Wheels Manufacturing both make EBB's for it. Two issues with that though. 1) there isn't much tolerance for error when they bore out the BB shell. 2) it would require purchasing a different EBB at roughly $150. Maybe I should have just stuck with a BSA shell and the Philcentric that's in the 062. Soooo, ya, I tend to over analyze things a bit. The Philcentric doesn't have nearly the amount of adjustment range though.

I had a couple more emails with Amy last night and we agreed on a final drawing. Not much has changed but we did add a 6mm thick plate where the chainstays attach to the BB shell. The short stays and bigger shell doesn't allow for much room for a reinforcement tube. This plate should do the trick.

Now I wait. It's going to be about a month before it's ready to ship so I won't have much to update for awhile. I guess it's now time to shop for some wheels.

[em_reeze]

This is awesome. I love the look of the frame. Thanks for the information. I have a couple questions for you. Are you happy with  the "31.75x120L" seat tube bore? Is that too wide and is it too short for a dropper post?

I am also curious about the rear wheel spacing. Is it 142 or 148mm for boost? I can't see exactly what is happening there in the drawing.

What headset did you pick on this bike and what were the options you were thinking about using?

Also, what is the reach for this bike?

Can you elaborate on the chainstay length vs bb drop further? I am not aware of how this works.

Any other suggestions on what to look out for in the process and helpful hints?

[bxcc]

Thanks. I wasn't sure how the straight line between rear axle and headtube was going to look in real life but if the Kona Honzo can pull it off, I'm sure this will be good as well. It's going to end up looking a lot like the Honzo Ti they had a couple years back.

1. I'm not sure if I'll be happy with the seat tube bore or not. I asked a few times about it and expressed my concerns. She stated that they are all that way and inserting the dropper by 220mm will not be an issue. She also stated that she will verify before the frame is shipped out. I hope to run a 160mm Revive dropper. I would be ok with 125mm of drop but the 160mm post will put it well below the top tube / seat tube junction reducing the likelihood of any cracking in that area.

2. 148mm boost. The 141mm measurement is the face of the dropouts, not the cutout portion for the hubs.

3. ZS44 upper and ZS56 lower. They can do the drop in standard as well but I prefer actual cups. It leaves the most options open for headset choice.

4. the reach for the frame (without accounting for stem spacers and the stem) should be right around 452mm.

5. The BB shell of the frame has an internal bore of 54mm. The EBB is then put into the frame shell. The EBB has standard BSA threads that are offset from center. You rotate the EBB until you get the right chain tension. Once that is complete, the EBB has some expansion wedges in it that keep it from spinning. So the actual centerline of the frame BB shell has a 60mm drop and 425mm CS distance. But the EBB will spin it around that axis with a 5mm radius. I will always be 5mm away from the 60mm/425mm position but I can choose the clock angle of it. I hope that helps. Here's a link with some pictures that might help even more.
https://problemsolversbike.com/article/bushnell-eccentric-bottom-bracket-the-time-tested-tensioner

6. Other tips? Not many at this point. I'll have a better idea once it's in my stand. I would say that if you don't plan on running it as a singlespeed, keep it simple and just get a BSA shell. Also, spend too many hours looking at frame designs and take screenshots of them. They can do anything if you just ask and open up the wallet. 

[tripleDot]

I'm expecting my 2nd Waltly Ti bike frame to arrive this week. And Amy was also the staff that worked with me on this one. It is a 29er as well. I've fiddled with chain tensioner before on a single speed setup and isn't to keen with it but not wanting to spend for an Eccentric BB I went with a sliding horizontal dropout on my first one. Love it and still went with it on this one.

[tripleDot]

Did you ask them to make it especially light ?

You can specify the tube diameter size and tube thickness. Their default tube thickness is 0.9mm. They will comply but that is at your own risk. I did specify tube diameter on my first one but I let them have their way on the second one. I didn't bother with tube thickness on both though.

The first frame was 1.935kg including the brake/TA brackets. So I'm expecting the 29er to be a tad over 2kg.

[bxcc]

You can specify the tube diameter size and tube thickness. Their default tube thickness is 0.9mm. They will comply but that is at your own risk. I did specify tube diameter on my first one but I let them have their way on the second one. I didn't bother with tube thickness on both though.

The first frame was 1.935kg including the brake/TA brackets. So I'm expecting the 29er to be a tad over 2kg.

Your two Waltly frames make me feel a little better about my decision to go with them, they look great. I didn't realize they would laser etch logo's for free, that's a cool feature. My plan is to make some stencils with the sticker cutter and bead blast the frame myself. I might even try the do-it-yourself anodizing.

I'm about 185 to 190 pounds (85kg) ready to ride. Amy recommended a 44.5mm down tube with a 1.1 wall thickness versus the 42mm x 0.9mm tube. She stated that it's partly to do with the twin down tube design and that it may get ridden aggressively with a 140mm fork. It should make for a stiffer pedaling frame as well. I've been told, and this could be wrong, that down tubes and chainstays make for a stiff pedaling frame and helps with the twisting forces. While smaller flatter toptubes and seat stays add to the softer ride while seated. To be honest, I just really liked the looks of the bike. The twin top tube design looks like the old retro paper boy style frames but the lines of the bike are modern and more aggressive. With that being said, I'm expecting the frame to be well above 2kg. The WW-062 frame it's replacing was around 1,250g so the bike will be at least 2 pounds heavier.

[bxcc]

For anyone who's wondering on a timeframe, it should ship within 35 days of June 12th when the plan was finalized.

[tripleDot]

@bxcc, the free laser etched logo was way before. They now charge for it, iirc, rate depends on size & number of logos/name. So for my second frame, I didn't go for any  anymore. The rate of the frame had also gone up since my first one.

[tripleDot]

@bxcc, your twin top tube design reminded me of actually wanting Waltly (thru Carbon Speed) to make a Ti version of the Commencal Acid (see photo). But Waltly's reply was they couldn't do it at that time, they would have to build a new mold (or something) and it would be very expensive. I wonder if it's doable now.

[bxcc]

@tripleDot, that’s a very cool looking frame. I’m not sure if they could pull that off or not. There’s a lot of angles to account for with those bends. It would be cool to see a version with each seat stay being a continuous tube to the head tube while still wrapping around the seat post like that. Mine is one continuous tube but it stays on it’s own side.

The prices have definitely gone up. The original frame was $830. Then there was a $20 up charge for the EBB shell and another $30 up charge for the chain stay to EBB shell yoke. Making the total come to $880 before shipping and PayPal fees. It’s still a decent price for a full custom frame. I just hope the quality is high enough that I don’t have any issues and everything fits as it should.

[tripleDot]

@bxcc, my first one was under $750 (including shipping but sans local customs & duties), discounted as I had done a few projects with Peter (Carbon Speed) as my major parts supplier.

For this one, my base price was $800 (discounted) including a pair brake/TA brackets plus an extra pair of the brake/TA brackets for SS ($35) and PayPal charges ($42). Got the discount for being a returning customer. Another unexpected increased in cost for me was the shipping. I always go with EMS which was around $60 (within Asia) but with the COVID lockdown, I didn't have a choice but to go with $200 DHL.