Lexon "Riot 10"

[looksee]

On a hardtail, when you compress the suspension, only the front end lowers, and the bike only moves in the direction of getting steeper frame angles. The hypotenuse between reach and stack, the distance between the bottom bracket and the top of head tube is a fixed dimension, but the triangle formed by the hypotenuse, reach, and stack changes shape such that the stack gets lower, and the reach gets longer as the suspension is compressed. The sagged reach is going to be longer than spec sheet number.

You can see the exact amount reach (and stack) changes with fork compression using https://bikegeo.muha.cc/ . For example, using the default numbers in that calculator, the reach is 407.2 with a fork length of 470 (close in length to a 26" 100mm Manitou fork). If you change fork length to 455, using 25mm travel (about sag), reach increases to 412.4. At 50mm travel (enter 420 for the fork, changing nothing else) reach is 424.7mm (+17.5mm reach). At 100mm travel, reach becomes 442.2mm (+35mm reach).

On a full suspension bike, the rear is going to compress too (maybe more since more of your weight is in the back), so the bike's attitude will stay level on average, meaning the reach is relatively stable with suspension compression.

[emu26]

Um, not so sure about that.  Headset / headtube, seat and bottom bracket are all fixed points on a triangle whose sides do not change length, nor angles change when you compress suspension at either end of the bike.  The "front triangle" of your bike is fixed and as such reach and stack cannot change. What changes is the angles outside of this fixed triangle.  The only exception to this that I can think of is that old "Slingshot" frame from about 20 years ago that had the down tube replaced by a wire which allowed a small amount of flex in the other two sides of the front triangle.

What changes when suspension compresses is fork angle, seat tube angle, front centre but only marginally, bb height and the length between your bb and your cassette on a duallie.

That right angle triangle that is formed by reach, stack and the downtube remains a right angle triangle regardless of what happens to the fork or rear suspension. I assume you are thinking that because reach on an unweighted bike is measured with a vertical line up from the bb that when the frame changes angle relative to the horizontal then you still use a vertical line up from the bb. I don't believe this is the case. The vertical line up from the bb when wheels are horizontal and bike is unweighted is used as a standard to make comparisons between frames easier. Reach is a static dimension, not a variable.

Using your logic the reach would change if the bike was sitting unweighted on a slope compared to sitting unweighted on a perfectly horizontal surface. The whole point of measure reach and stack with horizontal and vertical lines relies on the bike being on a horizontal surface and it gives you a right angelled triangle between reach and stack. That right angle triangle should not change.

I really think that you are over thinking this.

[looksee]

Nope, reach is defined by the distance to the vertical line through the bottom bracket. That vertical line does change relative to the frame when the frame is tilted back. Same thing for the stack. The horizontal line to the top of the steerer changes relative to the frame. The only side of the reach/stack/diagonal triangle that is fixed is the diagonal (except in the Slingshot). If you have a picture of a frame geometry diagram on a sheet of paper and put it on the wall, and tilt the picture slightly to simulate a longer or shorter fork for example, the vertical and horizontal lines on the paper are no longer vertical and horizontal, and need to be redrawn to actual vertical and horizontal, changing the shape of that right triangle. There's no debate on this.

Just on this particular frame alone, you see confirmation of that in the reach/stack specs. The Lexon's reach/stack, which is spec'd at 100/100 travel is different from the Topcarbon, which is spec'd at 120/110, and therefore slightly slackened. They are the same frame, but reach/stack on the Lexon 17.5 is 432mm/603mm, while the Topcarbon 17.5 is 430mm/609mm. Those different numbers for reach and stack are there not because the frame is different, but because the Topcarbon's reach/stack is calculated with a fork that has 10mm longer travel than the rear travel vs. equal travel. Furthermore, the main purpose of that https://bikegeo.muha.cc/ website that I linked to earlier is in fact to see how reach and stack changes with changes in fork length. That's why they have fork selections at the top, and reach/stack at the bottom where you are looking for the results of the fork change.

[emu26]

Nope, reach is defined by the distance to the vertical line through the bottom bracket. That vertical line does change relative to the frame when the frame is tilted back. Same thing for the stack. The horizontal line to the top of the steerer changes relative to the frame. The only side of the reach/stack/diagonal triangle that is fixed is the diagonal (except in the Slingshot). If you have a picture of a frame geometry diagram on a sheet of paper and put it on the wall, and tilt the picture slightly to simulate a longer or shorter fork for example, the vertical and horizontal lines on the paper are no longer vertical and horizontal, and need to be redrawn to actual vertical and horizontal. There's no debate on this.

Just on this particular frame alone, you see confirmation of that in the reach/stack specs. The Lexon's reach/stack, which is spec'd at 100/100 travel is different from the Topcarbon, which is spec'd at 120/110, and therefore slightly slackened. They are the same frame, but reach/stack on the Lexon 17.5 is 432mm/603mm, while the Topcarbon 17.5 is 430mm/609mm. Those different numbers for reach and stack is there not because the frame is different, but because the Topcarbon's reach/stack is calculated with a fork that has 10mm longer travel than the rear travel vs. equal travel. Furthermore, the main purpose of that https://bikegeo.muha.cc/ website that I linked to earlier is in fact to see how reach and stack changes with changes in fork length. That's why they have fork selections at the top, and reach/stack at the bottom where you are looking for the results of the fork change.

You are now measuring reach and stack on a different bike. There is no debate on this.

By your argument, as I said in previous post, simply having the identical bike on a slope compared to horizontal ground will change the reach and the stack.

[looksee]

There's reach as a bike spec, which you are talking about, and reach as you ride, which varies. Yes, a bike's instantaneous reach will be shorter on an upslope. That's obvious when you ride up a steep hill, the bars come closer to you when you are standing.

You asked me how reach changes with suspension movement, so I talked about reach as you ride, or instantaneous reach. I answered that it is different for a hardtail vs. full suspension. A hardtail will be and feel longer in reach than a same spec reach/stack full suspension bike because it will only ever compresses in the front. You disagree? This isn't my original idea, I got it from some youtube video that I can't remember at the moment. I hadn't considered it in my initial post in this thread, but then remembered that factor and brought it up.

I mentioned it the first place because that is a consideration for me coming from hardtails. I know the exact distance and angle between bottom bracket and grips that works for me on a hardtail. That exact spatial relationship between bottom bracket and stem transferred to a full suspension bike will be and feel a bit shorter when actually riding and doing things like getting the front wheel up in manuals/hops/etc. where weight will be only on the rear. The 25mm reach+stem difference between my bikes is huge in terms of getting that front wheel up. It basically felt impossible on the longer bike because it was over my RAD number, while it is really easy on the shorter bike. That's what I'm keeping in mind while I'm doing pre-calculations on fit/frame size preference/stem choice to less than 5mm. Why shouldn't I try to be that precise as someone on the border between M and L on many frames, and coming from a technical/engineering background and able to analyze it closely?

[looksee]

Another serious consideration when choosing between frame sizes on a carbon frame is do your shifters clear the top tube when the bars swing towards the top tube, especially if you are using flat bars. On my (stolen) 19", 625mm stack hardtail, there was a big/deep scratch in the top tube from the previous owner. It was an aluminum frame, so little harm done, though I did consider that a crack might initiate there. A carbon frame probably would have cracked. I also smacked the top tube with the shifter myself a few times over the years. I was reminded of this when I read this review on the Specialized site:

I LOVE the Epic Evo, but seriously, DO NOT ride this bike before ensuring the handlebar controls clear the top tube. I spent $1,000+ to repair the frame after the bike fell over leaning against my car - The bar controls hit and cracked the top tube when the bars spun. A seemingly common occurrence turned into a costly repair. I currently use the ENVE M6 25mm rider bars with the 50mm ENVE aluminum stem to ensure the controls clear the top tube. The repair company, Ruckus Composites, and my LBS were fantastic handling the repair.

I'm certainly not compromising my bar position to make the shifters clear the top tube. Without being able to have the actual frame in hand, I think the size 19 frame might possibly have clearance issues for me with the 619mm stack, while the 17.5 should definitely avoid the issue.

[looksee]

A hardtail will be and feel longer in reach than a same spec reach/stack full suspension bike because it will only ever compresses in the front. You disagree? This isn't my original idea, I got it from some youtube video that I can't remember at the moment.

Found it. This is what I'm talking about. This guy had to go to 40mm shorter on his hardtail compared to his full suspension to have a comparable real world riding reach, and he explains why - basically what I've written above. Give me your thoughts if you watch it.

[Jenko]

So, i received this frame, ordered from Lexon official store on aliexpress.
Frame size 19, black/yellow color scheme.
Frame comes with rear through axle, headset, bottom bracket (24mm axle), seatpost clamp, bolts for trunnion shock and adapter axle for regular shock mount, rubber chainstay protector.
Weight - 2102 g.
I've never had a carbon frame before, so cannot compare, but it seems to be well made, paint job is accurate, inside of the frame looks good without any messy bits of carbon fibre. I'm satisfied with the quality.
Unfortunately, package was messed up during shipping and there is a crack in chainstay
Contacted the seller, they immediately offered to send me a replacement rear trianle, so i'll have to wait and hope it will come in one piece
If you guys are interested in some specific info/pictures - let me know.

Some pics attached:
Frame, both sides
Frame with compressed suspension,
Weight, size 19
Trunnion to regular shock mount adaptor
The crack

[Caseven]

I bought this Lexon RIOT frame and fitted it with the donated Polygon Xtrada 7 components
youtu.be/2gI5sf8nxA4

[Beij70]

Any thoughts on how a 165x45 trunion shock would go on this frame?

[Caseven]

Lexon Riot with Trunnion Shock Manitou Mara 165x45

[Beij]

Any idea of travel with 165x45 shock installed? Ride review?

[RongGearRob]

Does anyone have experience with Lexon and better yet, updates on the Riot frame? I'm close to pulling the trigger on this frame as a replacement for my 2014 Specialized Crave Expert (HT). I'm new to buying/building my own bike, but I do my own maintenance (including servicing my fork) and have installed many upgrades. The Riot seems to be the best fit for what I'm looking for in a full suspension bike - more XC leaning than Trail.  I mostly ride classic Mid-Atlantic XC trails, lots of flow with some rocks, roots with the occasional (smallish) jumps & drops, but I am looking for a bike that is a little more capable taking on chunkier stuff (dare I use the term downcountry).  I race a few times a year Cat 2/3 depending on my fitness level, but at this point in my racing career I pretty much use the races as motivation for off-season training (my dreams of standing on the podium are long gone).

My plan is to re-purpose as many components from my Crave (BTW - it is no longer rideable due to a bent seat stay) to help save on cost, including:

Fork:                            Reba RL 100mm travel (eventually upgrade to a 120mm fork)
Drivetrain and shifter:    Sram GX 11 spd
Cranks and Chainring       Sram GX 32 tooth
Wheelset:                     Mavic Crossmax aluminum (going to need adapters for rear hub for boost spacing)
Brakes & Levers            Shimano BR-505 F-180mm/R-160mm
Other:                          Saddle, pedals, grips, tires, wolftooth dropper lever

Components to source:
Shock:                          Rockshox Monarch RL
Dropper Post:                PNW Ranger gen3 or Loam
Handlebar:                    TBD - Open to recommendation for a 720-760mm width with no more than 10 degrees rise (looking to upgrade from the 700mm wide handlebar that came with the Crave)
Stem:                           TBD - Again open to recommendations, but thinking about something a little shorter than the 70mm stem on the Crave.   


I'm 6' tall and plan on going with the Large frame.  Regarding the frame fit/sizing discussion, I found the Joy of Bike video Lee Bugusky and Lee McCormack very useful:  [url]https://youtu.be/HyppZOpHocM
/url]
Again, this will be my first time building up a bike and purchasing directly from China and therefore I have a few questions:
Is my approach and thinking sound?
Have I overlooked anything/Is there something else I should be taking into consideration?
Is there a different frame I should consider? FWW my runner up is ICAN S3 (others I considered were the similar XC FS frames from: BXT, Carbonda, Seraph, Airwolf, Tideace, Trifox and Lightcarbon).
Is Lexon legitimate?
How does the Riot ride?
Is Alibaba the best place to purchase the frame from?

Apologies for the long post, this site and all that have contributed have been a great resource. 

[onosendai]

Silly question, this frame necessarily comes with those graphics and logo?, if inevitable it's possible to easily remove them?

[emu26]

Silly question, this frame necessarily comes with those graphics and logo?, if inevitable it's possible to easily remove them?

If you click on the link in the original post you will see one of the colour options is "Matte No Shock".  I am pretty sure that means no stickers / logo but check with the seller to be 100% certain.  Some of their other frames have a note at the bottom of the description that says "Matte No Shock" means Matte paint, no logo.