Author Topic: Elves Falath EVO 2023  (Read 37688 times)

repoman

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2023, 07:56:59 PM »
I don't see what makes the Evo non aero or a aero larp because it's cheap. 
I think people have complaints about various things but no one has said it's slow aerodynamically. Cam Nichols had it as his fastest bike in a descent he tests aero on, and he wasn't too keen on it overall.

Sakizashi

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2023, 08:54:41 PM »
Without commenting on the YouTubers, I think the best-value frame that has evidence of aero testing in development is probably the Elilee Blize (~$1700 shipped USD including bar).

Wheels, probably Hunt’s aerodynamicist line or the Zipp 303S? I cant think of a Chinese offering that has been developed in that manner.

Bars, EXS?

BalticSea

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2023, 02:51:25 AM »
Without commenting on the YouTubers, I think the best-value frame that has evidence of aero testing in development is probably the Elilee Blize (~$1700 shipped USD including bar).

Wheels, probably Hunt’s aerodynamicist line or the Zipp 303S? I cant think of a Chinese offering that has been developed in that manner.

Bars, EXS?

Elilee looks as aerodynamic as cow on ice. It looks like V4RS, Trek Emonda and other lightweight race bikes, but aero it's not. You're billion times better off with Winspace T1500, even if it costs bit more
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 03:01:25 AM by BalticSea »

toxin

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2023, 07:09:52 AM »
I don't see what makes the Evo non aero or a aero larp because it's cheap. 
I think people have complaints about various things but no one has said it's slow aerodynamically. Cam Nichols had it as his fastest bike in a descent he tests aero on, and he wasn't too keen on it overall.

Rectangular cross-sections. Cam nichols test is hardly a scientific test. All it will show is that it's not a parachute. Easily a 20 watt margin of error with his test.

PLA

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2023, 07:38:27 AM »
Without commenting on the YouTubers, I think the best-value frame that has evidence of aero testing in development is probably the Elilee Blize (~$1700 shipped USD including bar).

Wheels, probably Hunt’s aerodynamicist line or the Zipp 303S? I cant think of a Chinese offering that has been developed in that manner.

Bars, EXS?

Seen some pretty poor quality finished elilee products. I'd steer clear. Elilee's marketing copy doesn't even talk about wind tunnel, velodrome or field testing. Their cfd testing was probably done by some dude off fiver, and it looks it, too. Looks about as slippery as sandpaper.
It’s so clearly a LARP of an aero bike.

Sakizashi

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2023, 08:48:45 AM »
Ok, but as far as being not being an “aero LARP” or answering what is the Chinese bike closest to $1100 designed with aero in mind the Blize is still a relevant answer in the context of development and process.

AFAIK the Elilee is still the only Chinese brand frame where you can find photos of the frame and prototypes in a wind tunnel along with the typical sketchy data published by bike makers as well as their CFD graphics. Maybe they faked it all but in this case it seemed designed to convince the Chinese domestic market that its in the “same class” as the Sl7 and Dogma F. While limited, it’s still more than the CFD that Winspace and Bross have shown. I suspect that Bross will show more or has shown more, I just havent found it yet.

Developed with actual aero testing doesnt mean that the bike will be faster, and the Blize is clearly not an aero bike; but its hard to get an optimized result without going through the processes needed for optimization. Frames are generally pretty marginal anyway in terms of the overall gain vs. your position on the bike, clothing etc. and the eye test isn’t great.

I personally would rather have a well built frame than an aero one, so that is where i would focus.

patliean1

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2023, 10:43:12 AM »
Sometimes when I spend too much time on cycling forums/videos I have to remind myself to go outside to remember how the real world operates...

Yishun/Light Carbon - Best value under $1000. I would take a $700-$800 Yishun over an $1100 Elves everyday of the week. The downside is Yishun doesn't exactly offer paint options, and their frames lean more towards all-around than aero. The performance however cannot be overstated.

Elves Falath Evo - Honestly if the aesthetics of a full aero frame at this price is that important (rather than QC and unproven performance) then a TanTan x38 is the way to go. You get custom paint, a unique looking frame for the pricepoint, and the money saved can go toward a legit set of wheels from something Leon Hu/Yuanan Wheels.

Winspace T1500 - But if you still really wanna spend $1100+ for a fully finished product and customer support, it's worth it to save/spend extra for the T1500. Or wait for the Agile release next year. It's a proven frameset. True, you could argue that buying a used aero frame from a big brand is a better buy. Something like a 2020 BMC Time/Road Machine but it's still gonna cost like around 2000. And in practice who is truly doing this with regularity?

Middlemen/Agents/Curators offer great value (maybe not here) and buffer to potential customers who are afraid to make their first Far-East purchase. As much as we in this forum love to pride ourselves on skipping the middle to buy frames/wheels to save money by going directly to OEM suppliers, the real world is a little different. I've received hundreds of messages over the years (forum/IG/FB/email) from from people basically wanting me to hold their hand during their customer experience. We just aren't as savvy at times as we believe.

I've been making videos for 3 years now. American cycling scene is huge now especially in Chicago. And yet Winspace is really the only brand that's been able to break through and become a common name around here.

PLA

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2023, 11:01:46 AM »
Yishun/Light Carbon - Best value under $1000. I would take a $700-$800 Yishun over an $1100 Elves everyday of the week. The downside is Yishun doesn't exactly offer paint options, and their frames lean more towards all-around than aero. The performance however cannot be overstated.

Lightcarbon will gladly do a custom paintjob for ya, though! I think they might even commission an artist for you to do something entirely custom, if you really want.

Yishun .. well .. I got my forks in gloss black lol.

PLA

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #113 on: November 20, 2023, 11:05:45 AM »
Ok, but as far as being not being an “aero LARP” or answering what is the Chinese bike closest to $1100 designed with aero in mind the Blize is still a relevant answer in the context of development and process.

I wouldn't get too caught up in it, I can't answer for the guy who wrote it, but the LARP comment, I'm sure, was just trying to make a point while being funny. Well, I found it hilarious, at least.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 11:07:47 AM by PLA »
It’s so clearly a LARP of an aero bike.

dsveddy

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2023, 01:23:51 PM »
I don't see what makes the Evo non aero or a aero larp because it's cheap. 
I think people have complaints about various things but no one has said it's slow aerodynamically. Cam Nichols had it as his fastest bike in a descent he tests aero on, and he wasn't too keen on it overall.

My thesis statement on the Elves Evo's aerodynamics is that it's a bike designed and marketed as a full-on aero road bike but if you closely examine the design itself, it seems to ignore many important principles of aerodynamics and other important considerations, and does so in such a way that prioritizes the aesthetics of aerodynamics over things that actually make it aerodynamic. This is why I call it a LARP: it's trying very hard to play the part, without substantively doing so. This "aero aesthetic" compromises other important qualities, specifically comfort, stiffness-to-weight ratio, and ease of manufacture. If an aero bike is designed carelessly like the Evo appears to have been, then all this added weight and complexity is squandered as you'll find other substantially lighter and more comfortable bikes that are just as, if not more aero.

You see western brands making this point. We have bikes like the Cannondale Supersix Evo 4 and the Tarmac SL8, which are "all-round" frames that compromise the aero aesthetic, but nonetheless are just as (if not more) aero than the full-aero frames produced by the same brand (see Tour Magazin tests thread on WW). To me this is a clear signal that the most substantial aero gains are to be made not in deep section tubes, but instead through careful implementation of aero design focused on surfaces that meet clean air. I'll get into what these features are in the next paragraph, but I'll make the point now that I doubt the Elves Falath Evo is substantially more aero than it's predecessor, or competing frames like the ICAN A22, Seka exceed, Blize, etc.

Really I have 4 big criticisms of the Elves Evo design: rectangular tube profiles, headtube and fork junction with huge cross-sectional area and bad design, enormous gaps between tires and the frame cutout, and no bottle fairing.

Rectangular tube profiles: I don't really need to explain myself here. It's objectively not as optimal as tubes with round leading edges.

Headtube: arguably it's the most important part for aerodynamics. Everyone else is working to make the headtube as narrow and aerofoil-shaped as possible. The Cannondale Supersix Evo 4 is a great example. Much ink was spilled over the specialized speed sniffer. We've known the headtube is important since forever ago, just look at the Specialized shiv from 09, which had a big nosecone strapped to it. In contrast the Evo has the widest headtube I've ever seen. Oversize bearings and no effort to taper the headtube between them. The headtube cross section is short and distinctly not-aerofoil-shaped. AND the fork crown is crazy thick.

Cutouts: cutouts work great, but they only work if the gap is minimized. Bikes that aren't trying to optimize the cutout simply don't have a substantial one (see the latest Specialized Shiv). On the other hand, the Evo pretends to have fully-faired wheel cutouts, but then in a bid to get 32mm of clearance, spoils the party with enormous spaces between the wheels and frame. This obviates the cutout entirely. It would probably be just as aero to have little to no cutout at all in this case. But the Evo has them, because the Evo is committed to the bit and needs to look like an aero bike.

Bottles: We all ride with bottles. Bike manufacturers have finally caught on to this and started fairing the bottle with the downtube instead of mounting the bottle on the trailing edge of an aerofoil like they used to, which totally spoils any aerodynamic benefit you'd get from the tube section. Elves seems to have not gotten this memo.

Now, this is just me and my eyes looking at the frame. I'm sure it's more aero than other frames. I am definitely sure many frames are more aero than the Evo. And most of all, I do not think the Evo is a good bang-for-buck in terms of aero performance for the weight and money it costs.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 01:46:24 PM by dsveddy »

PLA

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #115 on: November 21, 2023, 06:11:10 PM »
Maybe I was wrong, I actually found a photo of Elves aerodynamics research and development department.

Sakizashi

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2023, 07:15:23 PM »
Elilee looks as aerodynamic as cow on ice. It looks like V4RS, Trek Emonda and other lightweight race bikes, but aero it's not. You're billion times better off with Winspace T1500, even if it costs bit more

Other takeaway from this thread: y’all are udderestimating cows.

Velovelo

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #117 on: November 22, 2023, 03:21:01 AM »
Dear oh dear! Poor thing, so much hate on you Falath EVO.
Such a beauty and also a big crap at the same time, depending on which community's opinion you subscribe to... lol



« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 03:40:20 AM by Velovelo »

Dark17

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #118 on: November 22, 2023, 04:53:29 AM »
Dear oh dear! Poor thing, so much hate on you Falath EVO.
Such a beauty and also a big crap at the same time, depending on which community's opinion you subscribe to... lol

Is that Kulhavy's bike? That saddle angle lol.
rematistang jempoy (sprinter fred) from The Philippines

PLA

Re: Elves Falath EVO 2023
« Reply #119 on: November 22, 2023, 06:43:13 AM »
Such a beauty and also a big crap at the same time, depending on which community's opinion you subscribe to... lol

yeah the people who regret buying one and the people satisfied they bought something else  ;D
It’s so clearly a LARP of an aero bike.