LTWOO eGR

[jonathanf2]

I've used it both w/a drop-bar canti cross-check and a flat bar mtb so far.
I think ppl have swapped coin batteries out in those blips, but it looks a bit surgical. like on a level of changing an iphone screen - not hard per se but fussy and time-consuming.

I just found a how-to tutorial on how to replace the blip batteries.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C13-v1lMaWR/

It would be great if someone could make 3D print of a case that's easy to access. Similar to swapping batteries on a cadence/speed sensor. I'd really like to see LTwoo or Wheeltop explore this option as well. Though I wonder how many patents SRAM has to protect this concept?

It reminds me of my cheap wireless doorbell, which basically does the same thing!

[rockerplates.de]

I just found a how-to tutorial on how to replace the blip batteries.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C13-v1lMaWR/

It would be great if someone could make 3D print of a case that's easy to access. Similar to swapping batteries on a cadence/speed sensor. I'd really like to see LTwoo or Wheeltop explore this option as well. Though I wonder how many patents SRAM has to protect this concept?

It reminds me of my cheap wireless doorbell, which basically does the same thing!

we are already working on this problem :-)

[amacal1]

It would be great if someone could make 3D print of a case that's easy to access. Similar to swapping batteries on a cadence/speed sensor. I'd really like to see LTwoo or Wheeltop explore this option as well. Though I wonder how many patents SRAM has to protect this concept?

That's such a good point. I can't - for the life of me - imagine what stupidity went into the design with NON-REPLACEABLE batteries on something like that. If my $10 PAIR of ant+ speed and cadence sensors can manage to be waterproof, wireless, and have a replaceable battery then surely SRAM can do the same with a critical part of the drivetrain. Actually, it's worse than that. The pair of sensors I have uses the battery cover as a switch - turn the battery cover to the left and it's a speed sensor and turned to the right it's a cadence sensor. Not only does it have a replaceable battery cover, but they innovated a way to make it part of the interface.

Shame on SRAM, for real. Straight to engineer jail.

[jonathanf2]

That's such a good point. I can't - for the life of me - imagine what stupidity went into the design with NON-REPLACEABLE batteries on something like that. If my $10 PAIR of ant+ speed and cadence sensors can manage to be waterproof, wireless, and have a replaceable battery then surely SRAM can do the same with a critical part of the drivetrain. Actually, it's worse than that. The pair of sensors I have uses the battery cover as a switch - turn the battery cover to the left and it's a speed sensor and turned to the right it's a cadence sensor. Not only does it have a replaceable battery cover, but they innovated a way to make it part of the interface.

Shame on SRAM, for real. Straight to engineer jail.

SRAM engineers probably did design it to be replaceable, but then the marketing department said otherwise! I can't stand companies that are market driven in this way. Shimano isn't much better, but I find SRAM much worst in this regards. I'm actually glad LTwoo and Wheeltop are now in the groupset market.

[amacal1]

I'm actually glad LTwoo and Wheeltop are now in the groupset market.

Yes. Market economics does work for things like this. SRAM and Shimano can be a little foolish, still, but if they start acting like complete jackasses, then the new companies will start eating their lunch.

[highwind]

@gloscherrybomb & @trcycling

Thanks for you answers.
I am currently not in need of a new groupset, just checking options as my next upgrade will prolly be electronic with SRAMs eTap-shiftlogic.

Hopefully Sensah will be offering something the like with their new electronic groupset which I heard is in the making... they have been more-SRAM-than-Shimano-like in the past anyways. 
If they just "copy" the APEX/Rival AXS but with hydraulic oil brakes (instead of DOT) and a derailleur battery pack which uses some standard batteries (like 18650) instead of the proprietary stuff, I think that would be an absolute winner of a groupset.

Quoting myself here but may be interesting for others (albeit being offtopic in regards to LTWOO eGR)

The new Wheeltop GEX offers a fully wireless rear derailleur (compareable to SRAM) with hydraulic oil disc brakes (fully Shimano-compatible... you could even use original Shimano brakes) and the shifting-logic can be programmed either way (SRAM-style one side up, the other side down or Shimano-style both up and down on the right hand side) inside the app. The battery pack is proprietary but atleast can be exchanged (according to the manual).
It is also said to be fully compatible with basically all 3 to 14 speed cassettes which is a very nice addition because it lets you save money on using cheap 11spd cassettes now but also stay compatible/future proof on 12 & 13 speed when those become cheaper in the future.

[amacal1]

Quoting myself here but may be interesting for others (albeit being offtopic in regards to LTWOO eGR)

The new Wheeltop GEX offers a fully wireless rear derailleur (compareable to SRAM) with hydraulic oil disc brakes (fully Shimano-compatible... you could even use original Shimano brakes) and the shifting-logic can be programmed either way (SRAM-style one side up, the other side down or Shimano-style both up and down on the right hand side) inside the app. The battery pack is proprietary but atleast can be exchanged (according to the manual).
It is also said to be fully compatible with basically all 3 to 14 speed cassettes which is a very nice addition because it lets you save money on using cheap 11spd cassettes now but also stay compatible/future proof on 12 & 13 speed when those become cheaper in the future.

GeX does seem nice, and the Ali price is good ($450 right now, without any other special discounts). Problem is, zero support and warranty at that price. Their QC doesn't seem to be much better than Ltwoo, really, so not a huge advantage over Ltwoo really at that price. There seems to be a website that purports to be their US distribution company that's selling it for $509 (on sale right now). That ain't a bad price, and if that's really legit and they back the warranty and support then it's probably a slightly safer bet than Ltwoo at a slightly higher price.

[jonathanf2]

GeX does seem nice, and the Ali price is good ($450 right now, without any other special discounts). Problem is, zero support and warranty at that price. Their QC doesn't seem to be much better than Ltwoo, really, so not a huge advantage over Ltwoo really at that price. There seems to be a website that purports to be their US distribution company that's selling it for $509 (on sale right now). That ain't a bad price, and if that's really legit and they back the warranty and support then it's probably a slightly safer bet than Ltwoo at a slightly higher price.

It seems Wheeltop now has US distribution and warranty support (not sure about Europe). I remember someone saying that Wheeltop opened an office in Portland, OR. The GeX for $509 USD with warranty support and selectable cassette speeds, seems reasonable. Also Wheeltop took a cue from Shimano and offers separate RDs for both xx-46t and xx-51t cassette sizes. Plus they offer alloy and carbon versions. LTwoo only offers xx-46t compatibility and alloy only shifters with the eGR. LTwoo has no US support or distribution either, with AliEx sellers stepping up for support. Wheeltop sounds (at least) on-paper to be the safer bet.

Though personally I'd probably stick with eGR since I'm already embedded with the ER9 groupset on my road bikes, so I'd only need 1 app to manage all my bikes.

[courdacier]

SRAM engineers probably did design it to be replaceable, but then the marketing department said otherwise! I can't stand companies that are market driven in this way. Shimano isn't much better, but I find SRAM much worst in this regards. I'm actually glad LTwoo and Wheeltop are now in the groupset market.

the moment you decide to make it replaceable you need to add thickness to the screw-on cap, a rubber gasket and additional assembly steps at the plant. this way you can make it smaller, flimsier and also not have to do a 5-yr durability study.

[courdacier]

GeX does seem nice, and the Ali price is good ($450 right now, without any other special discounts). Problem is, zero support and warranty at that price. Their QC doesn't seem to be much better than Ltwoo, really, so not a huge advantage over Ltwoo really at that price. There seems to be a website that purports to be their US distribution company that's selling it for $509 (on sale right now). That ain't a bad price, and if that's really legit and they back the warranty and support then it's probably a slightly safer bet than Ltwoo at a slightly higher price.

good find! I like how the AE eds mtb package price dropped to be in line with the $300 SRAM apex/blip combo. I'll probably pick one up for my kid's bike.

[jonathanf2]

good find! I like how the AE eds mtb package price dropped to be in line with the $300 SRAM apex/blip combo. I'll probably pick one up for my kid's bike.

https://www.performancebike.com/sram-apex-xplr-axs-rear-derailleur-grey-12-speed-electronic-00.7518.175.000/p1501152

SRAM AXS XPLR RD is $221 USD right now and paired with $100 blips, seems quite reasonable. I could literally just keep my Shimano hydraulic shifters in-place and go full wireless with that setup. Though how would the crank/chain/cassette situation look? I'd have to go 12 speed, but can the XPLR RD handle non-SRAM chain/cassette combos?

[courdacier]

https://www.performancebike.com/sram-apex-xplr-axs-rear-derailleur-grey-12-speed-electronic-00.7518.175.000/p1501152

SRAM AXS XPLR RD is $221 USD right now and paired with $100 blips, seems quite reasonable. I could literally just keep my Shimano hydraulic shifters in-place and go full wireless with that setup. Though how would the crank/chain/cassette situation look? I'd have to go 12 speed, but can the XPLR RD handle non-SRAM chain/cassette combos?

I've been running it w/AE 12-sp cassette and chain, and it works. I don't know if it works better with all native SRAM bits since I've never tested both. I would assume it does. I'm liking the option to use <12sp bits w/Wheeltop as I still have old parts I can use up.

[trcycling]

the moment you decide to make it replaceable you need to add thickness to the screw-on cap, a rubber gasket and additional assembly steps at the plant. this way you can make it smaller, flimsier and also not have to do a 5-yr durability study.

Fair enough in theory. But in practice, the Wheeltop pack seems to be of comparable size to the SRAM removable packs. (not certain as I haven't seen in person). And more significantly, you forfeit the reassurance of being able to carry a spare. With AXS, I can easily keep a spare in my pack or swap batteries on a 2x if I run out while riding. Sure, they last long enough that it shouldn't happen if you pay attention unless you're in the boondocks for days. But in reality, it does and people are concerned about the possibility. Shimano's Di2 approach (and the LTWOO eGR) handles this with a large battery so it's really unlikely you will wear it out while in use. It doesn't protect from user error though.

To me, if the claims of 20k shifts per charge are accurate, the fixed, small battery approach on the Wheeltop seems like a good compromise. But I wouldn't trust it until that lifespan is verified. I don't get 20k shifts out of AXS or LTWOO. The spec is also not revealing the drain of simply existing. Keeping the radios alive (when they are) and the motions sensors (to turn it on) all the time.  IMO, that standby power drain is non-trivial in the total charge cycle. It seems like the reality of these electronic systems is XXX shifts and/or a month(ish) between charges whichever comes first and a tradeoff. Totally acceptable performance, but important to realize that time is a factor as well.

[highwind]

Their QC doesn't seem to be much better than Ltwoo, really, so not a huge advantage over Ltwoo really at that price.

The advantage is neither pricing nor QC, it is compatibility with basically any cassette no matter the gears and "AXS-style-shifting-with-easy-to-bleed-non-DOT-brakes"
Something you neither get from LTWOO, nor Shimano, nor SRAM, nor anybody else.
This obviously doesnt mean QC isnt important, but GeX brings much more -at least on paper- than "just another cheapish alternative only worth considering when not able/willing to pay for big brand"

But in reality, it does and people are concerned about the possibility. Shimano's Di2 approach (and the LTWOO eGR) handles this with a large battery so it's really unlikely you will wear it out while in use.

In reality it acutally turns out to be the other way around... if starting full, both systems a very unlikey to run out during a ride, but a small battery you routinely charge at the end of each day/ride is much less likely to be forgotten / not charged in comparison to a very large battery where charging is only required once every few month or so.
I basically never forget to charge my smartphone over night, connecting it when going asleep is a routine like tooth brushing.
But I actually tend to regularly forget charging/changing batteries on my digital scale, tv remote, wallclock, etc. just because of their long run times.

And more significantly, you forfeit the reassurance of being able to carry a spare. With AXS, I can easily keep a spare in my pack or swap batteries on a 2x if I run out while riding.

Or in other words: with AXS you need an expensive seperate proprietary battery in your pack (which then can only be used for your AXS derailleur) while with GeX you could just use the same cheap and widely available USB powerbank which you are very likely to carry in your pack anyways (because it is used for your bike computer, bike lights, smartphone, etc.) plus a probably cheapish and very light/small cable.

[gloscherrybomb]

The advantage is neither pricing nor QC, it is compatibility with basically any cassette no matter the gears and "AXS-style-shifting-with-easy-to-bleed-non-DOT-brakes"
Something you neither get from LTWOO, nor Shimano, nor SRAM, nor anybody else.
This obviously doesnt mean QC isnt important, but GeX brings much more -at least on paper- than "just another cheapish alternative only worth considering when not able/willing to pay for big brand"
In reality it acutally turns out to be the other way around... if starting full, both systems a very unlikey to run out during a ride, but a small battery you routinely charge at the end of each day/ride is much less likely to be forgotten / not charged in comparison to a very large battery where charging is only required once every few month or so.
I basically never forget to charge my smartphone over night, connecting it when going asleep is a routine like tooth brushing.
But I actually tend to regularly forget charging/changing batteries on my digital scale, tv remote, wallclock, etc. just because of their long run times.
Or in other words: with AXS you need an expensive seperate proprietary battery in your pack (which then can only be used for your AXS derailleur) while with GeX you could just use the same cheap and widely available USB powerbank which you are very likely to carry in your pack anyways (because it is used for your bike computer, bike lights, smartphone, etc.) plus a probably cheapish and very light/small cable.

Aside from backpacking I don't think many people are carrying a power bank around with them...