New Gravel Frame Ican Graro

[maui400]

Here is a drawing of the seatpost. It really seems to be just -15mm.

Edit: But wait ... now that I see the image a second time, I wonder where the blue reference line is.

[RDY]

Here is a drawing of the seatpost. It really seems to be just -15mm.

Edit: But wait ... now that I see the image a second time, I wonder where the blue reference line is.

Maybe this drawing explains why this seatpost appears to have such massive setback.  Setback is measured on the horizontal of course ... if their 'engineer' went for 15mm of setback relative to a line up through the bb and seat-tube, then ... 

[Asco]

Given a STA of 73, that results in a horizontal setback of 15.68. So not a big difference, assuming I got the trig right.
Eyeballing the drawing, we're losing another 10mm relative to the center of the seat tube though.

I noticed that the Nextie G2 has the exact same geometry: https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=648f566fec82fc001a96df32,65c2a0c6a244e9001aeae09c,
except for 10mm longer chainstays.

[maui400]

Given a STA of 73, that results in a horizontal setback of 15.68. So not a big difference, assuming I got the trig right.
Eyeballing the drawing, we're losing another 10mm relative to the center of the seat tube though.

I noticed that the Nextie G2 has the exact same geometry: https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=648f566fec82fc001a96df32,65c2a0c6a244e9001aeae09c,
except for 10mm longer chainstays.

Yeah, the Nextie G2 is the same as the BXT 135 in which I was also interested - before I read about experiences with them. The frame has also 2mm wider tire clearance which goes for me into the wrong direction as I want max 40mm plus optional 30mm tires. But yes, given the quality of the G2 is good it should be a great alternative.

Regarding your maths. That's true, but I still don't know what the blue line is referring to. It seems so randomly placed. But since it is far from the center of the seat post the real setback could be indeed ~25mm.  No one caring about geo would buy this frame. Too bad since I really would have liked it. 

[TidyDinosaur]

Well, I guess it is the line that runs through the centre of the BB and parallel to the back of the seattube. Since other measurements like seat tube angle and top tube length are also taken off this line it seems to be fair to measure setback with this line.

[maui400]

Could be, but I'm not sure about this logic. Then a 0mm setback post would be around +10mm in direction of the head tube. And what about seat posts you can buy separately? They don't have a frame as reference, but still have a defined setback.

Edit: Regarding your theory the setback will be dependent from seat height for bent seat tubes.

[maui400]

"Seat Post
 ROSE, 8 mm offset 400mm" 

Now ICANs specs seem to be a lot more realistic ...

You may wonder why I am still sneaking around this frame. Well I really like it and I guess the quality is quite good. Plus with this frame I won't be scared of toe overlap. 
Currently I am undecided whether to take this frame an hope my saddle can be moved forward enough - or the YFR068 in L or XL. But the QA issues scare me off and that I seem to be between the two sizes.

[Asco]

I pulled the trigger, and bought a Chameleon one in size 56. Really excited about it. Going to build it up with 11 sp mechanical Ultegra, and hoping to fit 50/34 chainrings on there. It's going to be my do-it-all bike with a road and a gravel wheelset.
 Unfortunately, it won't show up for another 2 months  (EU preorder for June 30).

A few things:

1) The reason it has similar geo to the BXT and Nextie, is that all 3 are very heavily "inspired" by the Scott Addict Gravel. That's also why I'm hoping 50/34 will fit, since that fits on the Scott.

2) When it comes to the setback, what matters is that we can achieve our preferred saddle position relative to the BB. This in turn can be determined from just 2 factors: The seat tube angle and the setback relative to the line through the bottom bracket. The reason the setback looks big is that the seat tube is shifted forward relative to the BB as seen by the blue line.

i) My current bike has a STA of 73.5 instead of 73 on the Graro. That results in shifting the saddle back roughly 5mm at my saddle height, relative to my current bike.
ii) My current bike has a setback of maybe 5mm, (round seatpost centered on the BB). This means another net 15-5 mm = 10mm setback.
iii) However, the clamp that holds the saddle rails is also much smaller on the Graro, which gives a bit of leeway the other way (roughly 7mm by my estimation).


I've concluded that I can easily achieve my current saddle position, even without slamming the saddle all the way forward.

Will definitely post a lot of measurements related to tire clearance, chainring clearance etc when I receive the frame!

[TidyDinosaur]

2) When it comes to the setback, what matters is that we can achieve our preferred saddle position relative to the BB. This in turn can be determined from just 2 factors: The seat tube angle and the setback relative to the line through the bottom bracket. The reason the setback looks big is that the seat tube is shifted forward relative to the BB as seen by the blue line.

i) My current bike has a STA of 73.5 instead of 73 on the Graro. That results in shifting the saddle back roughly 5mm at my saddle height, relative to my current bike.
ii) My current bike has a setback of maybe 5mm, (round seatpost centered on the BB). This means another net 15-5 mm = 10mm setback.
iii) However, the clamp that holds the saddle rails is also much smaller on the Graro, which gives a bit of leeway the other way (roughly 7mm by my estimation).


I've concluded that I can easily achieve my current saddle position, even without slamming the saddle all the way forward.

Yes, that is indeed the way it should be done. With a detailed geometry compare site you can see if the setback will work for you.

A tip: not all saddle rails are equally long, so if you can't find your correct position with the saddle you have, you can always see if there are saddles with longer rails. With my Hygge (only available with setback seatpost) I can only use one particular saddle because the rails are longer in the back. Nearly all the carbon saddles have too short rails in the back.

I should have done more comparing between frames and bought an other frame with less setback 

[Asco]

Yes, that is indeed the way it should be done. With a detailed geometry compare site you can see if the setback will work for you.

A tip: not all saddle rails are equally long, so if you can't find your correct position with the saddle you have, you can always see if there are saddles with longer rails. With my Hygge (only available with setback seatpost) I can only use one particular saddle because the rails are longer in the back. Nearly all the carbon saddles have too short rails in the back.

I should have done more comparing between frames and bought an other frame with less setback 

Thanks! Curious what saddle you are using, as it is always nice to have a bit more adjustability. It's hard to compare saddle rails from pictures, especially since we're after the length in the back as you said and not the total length of the rails.

[TidyDinosaur]

Thanks! Curious what saddle you are using, as it is always nice to have a bit more adjustability. It's hard to compare saddle rails from pictures, especially since we're after the length in the back as you said and not the total length of the rails.

I have made a comparison in Autocad of a lot of the saddles. Of all the saddles you can find a side view and you know the length, so I just pasted a picture in autocad, scaled to get the right length. I lined up the back of all the saddles and so I could see how the rails compared to each other.

I use this saddle on all my bikes (road, gravel and MTB). They often are for sale at about 10 EUR: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005286260332.html

They have a version with carbon rails and it is very cheap. I have bought 2 but have yet to install them: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006400661842.html

Oh, and you can easily remove the branding on the plastic with some acetone

[maui400]

I pulled the trigger, and bought a Chameleon one in size 56. Really excited about it. Going to build it up with 11 sp mechanical Ultegra, and hoping to fit 50/34 chainrings on there. It's going to be my do-it-all bike with a road and a gravel wheelset.
 Unfortunately, it won't show up for another 2 months  (EU preorder for June 30).

A few things:

1) The reason it has similar geo to the BXT and Nextie, is that all 3 are very heavily "inspired" by the Scott Addict Gravel. That's also why I'm hoping 50/34 will fit, since that fits on the Scott.

2) When it comes to the setback, what matters is that we can achieve our preferred saddle position relative to the BB. This in turn can be determined from just 2 factors: The seat tube angle and the setback relative to the line through the bottom bracket. The reason the setback looks big is that the seat tube is shifted forward relative to the BB as seen by the blue line.

i) My current bike has a STA of 73.5 instead of 73 on the Graro. That results in shifting the saddle back roughly 5mm at my saddle height, relative to my current bike.
ii) My current bike has a setback of maybe 5mm, (round seatpost centered on the BB). This means another net 15-5 mm = 10mm setback.
iii) However, the clamp that holds the saddle rails is also much smaller on the Graro, which gives a bit of leeway the other way (roughly 7mm by my estimation).


I've concluded that I can easily achieve my current saddle position, even without slamming the saddle all the way forward.

Will definitely post a lot of measurements related to tire clearance, chainring clearance etc when I receive the frame!

Great you did it! Actually I have the same plan with my future bike - to replace my gravel and road and just have one dropbar bike with two wheelsets in the garage. Do you already have an idea for your wheelsets? I was thinking about road rims with 32mm external and about 23-25mm internal to run 30mm upfront and 32mm in the rear. I just haven't found rims with 32mm outer. These are my current options:
- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006062147755.html
- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006639888848.html
Hubs: Goldix R180SL (super light - durability?)
As for the gravels my rim choice might be 36mm outer and 30mm internal: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006427795061.html
Hubs: Goldix R240SL (super light - more durable??)

You guy are certainly correct with the saddle offset. My current Velobuild GF-001 has an STA of 72.5° plus setback seatpost, which is kinda stupid, since the geo was cloned from the OPEN U.P., but the OPEN has a straight seatpost. Anyways, My saddle is slammed all the way to the front. Okay, maybe 10mm are left. I'm using a Fabric Line which has really long rails, but I already have some ali 3D saddle which will not have as much room to play. I will have to do some more calculations. Do you guys have a recommendation for a good seating position calculator?

[Asco]

For now, I'm going with the wheelsets I already have - DT Swiss G1800 alu gravel wheels and Fulcrum DB6 alu road wheels.
For road, I'll probably go 32mm GP5K STR front and back. For gravel I'll first see how big a tire I can fit and then pick a brand (would be nice to fit a 48 Thundero, but that's unlikely I think).

Wheels are definitely the next upgrade though, once I figure out what I want. I have my eye on the crazy Nextie 45AGX wheelset (inspired by the 3T Discus wheelset I think) - 40mm external, 29mm internal hooked rim and 45mm deep.
For what you want, Lightbicycle have 32 external / 25 internal rims in many different depths.

For the bike fit stuff, I have no idea. I just know that I don't hate my current saddle position. Should definitely get a fit some day though.

[maui400]

Yes, I've seen these LB rims. As the huge Nextie Rims they are a bit on the expensive side. So I was looking for sth. more reasonable.
May I ask how tall you are? I'm undecided between 56 and 58. I'm 6.0ft (184/88cm).

Btw. They measured the internal fork with for me which is supposed to be 53mm. I didn't ask about the rear clearance. But since the frame has a dropped chainstay 48mm could fit (But with the nextie rims ... I'm not so sure  ).

[Asco]

Yes, I've seen these LB rims. As the huge Nextie Rims they are a bit on the expensive side. So I was looking for sth. more reasonable.
May I ask how tall you are? I'm undecided between 56 and 58. I'm 6.0ft (184/88cm).

Yeah, they are definitely not the cheapest rims. Maybe I should also consider others!

I'm 180cm and I was definitely struggling to choose between the 54 and 56. The 58 is huge though, do you need the extra toe clearance?

I did a lot of calculations and concluded that just like with the saddle position, I would have some room to play with in terms of stack and reach on 56, and I would most likely not have to worry about toe overlap.
Since the STA is the same for both (edit: 56 and 58 are the same, not 54 and 56), the saddle position should be irrelevant for this choice and you can focus on getting the stack and reach numbers you want, and the front center you need to avoid overlap.

Btw. They measured the internal fork with for me which is supposed to be 53mm. I didn't ask about the rear clearance. But since the frame has a dropped chainstay 48mm could fit (But with the nextie rims ... I'm not so sure  ).

Nice, I tried to get them to do measurements with no luck. Yeah maybe the best option is to go for a nominally smaller tire with the really wide rim .