Separate set - narrow handlebars and low stem - for internal routing

[obuwiecieplezimowe]

Hi,

first post here but not my first Chinese bike

I've order TFSA JH-02 recently - so a rim brake frame with internal routing. In my present bike (Elves Vanyar or Airwolf or whatever name it) I use a Toseek 360x70 cockpit combo. So 360mm wide both tops and drops, 70mm stem, 75mm handlebar reach, -8* stem angle. Low 6mm headset cover - routed externally. Not perfect, but not bad either.

So I can use it again (easy option, only different headset cover) or build something a bit different. To the point:

I found on Aliexpress a Bikedoc HB24 handlebar. It is in narrowest option 340mm in drops and 280mm tops - with a flare. Reach is fine 79mm. A bit pricey for a Chinese product but I found nothing similar so it's fair enough.
But that way I would also need a stem (and out-front computer mount to the stem) and there I see a problem - I only found a few stems that allows internal routing through the stem. They are either expensive as hell, with little legative angle (bad thing - higher bars) or with a necessary super-special-spacer that adds stack. Or all that combined.

So - are there any decent stems for internal routing? Ideally 70-80mm, -17* (or -12, but definitely not -6 or 0), lowest stack possible. I am short, always using smallest size frame (and most is too large anyway so there is a very limited selection) so I don't want to rise my handlebars. My bike  has to be fast and in my case lower is faster

[Serge_K]

velobuild has stems that allow internal routing, check their website for sizes. Bear in mind they are quite chunky, i've installed 4, they're not the most elegant. but they work, and they ought to be cheap.
Unsure about angle.

[Sakizashi]

Hi,

first post here but not my first Chinese bike

I've order TFSA JH-02 recently - so a rim brake frame with internal routing. In my present bike (Elves Vanyar or Airwolf or whatever name it) I use a Toseek 360x70 cockpit combo. So 360mm wide both tops and drops, 70mm stem, 75mm handlebar reach, -8* stem angle. Low 6mm headset cover - routed externally. Not perfect, but not bad either.

So I can use it again (easy option, only different headset cover) or build something a bit different. To the point:

I found on Aliexpress a Bikedoc HB24 handlebar. It is in narrowest option 340mm in drops and 280mm tops - with a flare. Reach is fine 79mm. A bit pricey for a Chinese product but I found nothing similar so it's fair enough.
But that way I would also need a stem (and out-front computer mount to the stem) and there I see a problem - I only found a few stems that allows internal routing through the stem. They are either expensive as hell, with little legative angle (bad thing - higher bars) or with a necessary super-special-spacer that adds stack. Or all that combined.

So - are there any decent stems for internal routing? Ideally 70-80mm, -17* (or -12, but definitely not -6 or 0), lowest stack possible. I am short, always using smallest size frame (and most is too large anyway so there is a very limited selection) so I don't want to rise my handlebars. My bike  has to be fast and in my case lower is faster

A couple of thoughts. I have the bikedoc bars on my bike and had courtside seat to the development process. The smallest 2 sizes of the bar are a response to an RFP i put out and then binned because I didnt think I could sell enough units to make a payback on the cost of the mold in a reasonable time. Joke's on me. They have sold a ton of these bars and they have exceeded my expectations in every way.

While I cant speak to the QC of every bar, I do know the design itself was tested for safety and is also very stiff.  The bar needs to be stiff because the narrow position also requires a long stem and your arms end up extended really far in front of you. It also has a pretty robust tops section as a result. It might not be for you in the wider sizes and its very much a modified track bar in this respect. Aero was probably left on the table in favor of stiffness. It makes sense when you build up the smallest size.

The routing is clean and pretty well done. IMO the attention to detail is on the level of an Enve or FSA K Force level of product. Its really well done.

If you are planning to do this route, you should really think carefully about fit. With these bars. vs. my 40cm drops /35cm tops enve bar, my stem is now 30mm longer and you might not want to go as low as you think. These are on a custom bike with a <510mm reach including the headset cover and a 393mm reach. I run a -6 130mm stem. I am 169cm. Its a drastically different position than I have ever had on a bike before.

That said, it looks like TFSA sells some bikes with what looks like either a copy of the Tarmac or Venge stem. If this is the case, I would buy that stem from them if they make the angle you want or see if you can buy the plastic spacers from them and fit the Specialized -12 stems. The Tarmac -12 stem is one of the lowest stems you can get because of its low stack and drop. Its as low or lower than many -17 degree stems depending on length.

[obuwiecieplezimowe]

Thanks,

of course I have aero in mind but I also like to play with different toys. I tried to copy that kind of narrow position using my own bars and my prediction is it should be not only more aero but also sustainable for much longer. What may be tricky is something like 500W for 1 minute steep hill standing using these bars. Sounds like an adventure!

I have found several other stems on Ali, I have to check how that Specialized one looks like... after work But it looks like there are good fitting options - I only have to spend more than normally on Chinese stuff and that's it

EDIT: I see it's too much trouble with bike fit and not much to gain in terms of aesthetics. I knew that there is limited selection of components for internal routing but I didn't realize it's THAT limited

So, I think it's just better to use just normal stem whatever I like, even a crazy low stack -20* MTB one if I want, put cables between handlebars and the frame below the stem (also neat) and just use a proper headset cover with a hole in it for the cables. As simple as that. I hope

[obuwiecieplezimowe]

Finally I bought a different handlebars accidentally found on Ali. Also narrow, but with less flare and cheaper. First 3h ride on it so far. Feels ok, "relaxed" position looks definitely less relaxed but is as comfy as on wider bars. As I suspected standing sprints on hoods feels odd, but it is odd anyway

New frame hasn't been sent yet so tested in my own one.

One problem with this setup - cabling it is a total nightmare. But my case is really a worst case scenario - small frame, low stack, old 11s Shimano di2 setup, junction box in a bar end. This one except of very tight openings with little "steps" making routing more difficult doesn't have little holes inside drops for example. So cable must be routed to the top and then a sharp turn to shifter has to be made. Or you can simply drill that hole because why not

The handlebars is something bought in "EC90 bicycle store" on Ali, now 92 EUR, looks like this - I don't know if it is allowed to post links here but it will be easy to find if needed So dimensions, comparsion with "wide" 36cm one and on the bike. Weight of mine is 233g.

[Sakizashi]

Finally I bought a different handlebars accidentally found on Ali. Also narrow, but with less flare and cheaper. First 3h ride on it so far. Feels ok, "relaxed" position looks definitely less relaxed but is as comfy as on wider bars. As I suspected standing sprints on hoods feels odd, but it is odd anyway

New frame hasn't been sent yet so tested in my own one.

One problem with this setup - cabling it is a total nightmare. But my case is really a worst case scenario - small frame, low stack, old 11s Shimano di2 setup, junction box in a bar end. This one except of very tight openings with little "steps" making routing more difficult doesn't have little holes inside drops for example. So cable must be routed to the top and then a sharp turn to shifter has to be made. Or you can simply drill that hole because why not

The handlebars is something bought in "EC90 bicycle store" on Ali, now 92 EUR, looks like this - I don't know if it is allowed to post links here but it will be easy to find if needed So dimensions, comparsion with "wide" 36cm one and on the bike. Weight of mine is 233g.

Lol, so this design is one of the rejected ones that was part of the conversations I had that led to the “Bikedoc” bars. By rejected, I mean they proposed the other design after we talked about the shortcoming of this design. A few reasons appear to have bothered you already and a few might not. One of the big flaws is that everyone should pay attention to is that the clamping area is too small for a lot of modern internal routing stems.

[elmtree]

Lol, so this design is one of the rejected ones that was part of the conversations I had that led to the “Bikedoc” bars. By rejected, I mean they proposed the other design after we talked about the shortcoming of this design. A few reasons appear to have bothered you already and a few might not. One of the big flaws is that everyone should pay attention to is that the clamping area is too small for a lot of modern internal routing stems.

Any other issues? These have a bit less flare, but a bit more aero top shape. Price is close enough that I don't really care, but neither look super friendly for routing mech+hydro through.

[obuwiecieplezimowe]

Around 15-20 hours so far but including very steep mountains, flats, sprints, slow and fast rides. All fine I think. I especially love mountain descends on it.

And yes the clamping area is a bit narrow for some stems - I even have one very wide -17* drop bar stem that wouldn't fit, or just barely. But that stem is so ugly anyway it will always remain as a spare

I think for mechanical shifting (the same for my mechanical brakes) a link type housing is a must. I first tried to use standard cable housing, but except difficulties in routing it through the bar my rear brake spring has not enough force to fully return due to sharp curves. And I had to rewire all using liner + links type of housing. That was much easier to do and brakes works like a charm. But it rattles inside

And a fully internal routing should be easier as it's easier to reach that "back" port from handlebars to stem than those small crappy exit ones. I'll see when my new frame arrives so in a few weeks from now.

[coffeebreak]

What rim brake calipers are those?

[Sakizashi]

Any other issues? These have a bit less flare, but a bit more aero top shape. Price is close enough that I don't really care, but neither look super friendly for routing mech+hydro through.

Oops sorry for the late reply.

It's not as stiff, probably, though I never saw the data, so it's more of a theoretical discussion. The big difference is in the shape of the bar itself. The Bikedoc HB24 has 3mm more drop and no rise on the ramps. Your shifters mount ~7mm lower as a result. You also have more flare and more wrist clearance when sprinting or climbing out of the saddle in the drops. Shape-wise, it’s a wider / road-adapted version of a modern bunch bar from the track. There is some overlap in size, with the 34cm size being very similar to what you would see as the wider end of track bars. The rejected design, the one from EC90, is a more traditionally shaped road bar that is narrower, so shrunken in one dimension.

The question was, if you had no funding for research, whose shoulders do you stand on? Track bars where the narrow position is proven, but the shifter/bar interface is trickier? Or road bars where the shifter/bar interface is more known, but the ergonomics of designing around a narrow aero hood position and sprinting in the drops on a narrow bar is still taking shape? Given that most of the narrower than the old but well-loved Enve SES Aero bars are track-style designs, I was biased toward a track-style bar.

You also have the divots for the wrist (their idea, not mine) vs. not having them, which forces the wrist inside the ramps like they are on the Enve SES Aero bars. The divots work well and allow a more natural angle for the arms and wrists when in the aero hood position. I pushed a little for more reach on the bar, but that was rejected.

I also had no trouble with the hose routing, which could have been due to the extra 2mm of bar thickness.

TLDR; Bikedoc HB24 should be stiffer,  but the difference is the shape being an adapted (wider) track bar vs a small width road bar.

[obuwiecieplezimowe]

What rim brake calipers are those?

Planet-X, Fouriers or probably many more brands. A generic design.

[dsveddy]

Oops sorry for the late reply.

It's not as stiff, probably, though I never saw the data, so it's more of a theoretical discussion. The big difference is in the shape of the bar itself. The Bikedoc HB24 has 3mm more drop and no rise on the ramps. Your shifters mount ~7mm lower as a result. You also have more flare and more wrist clearance when sprinting or climbing out of the saddle in the drops. Shape-wise, it’s a wider / road-adapted version of a modern bunch bar from the track. There is some overlap in size, with the 34cm size being very similar to what you would see as the wider end of track bars. The rejected design, the one from EC90, is a more traditionally shaped road bar that is narrower, so shrunken in one dimension.

The question was, if you had no funding for research, whose shoulders do you stand on? Track bars where the narrow position is proven, but the shifter/bar interface is trickier? Or road bars where the shifter/bar interface is more known, but the ergonomics of designing around a narrow aero hood position and sprinting in the drops on a narrow bar is still taking shape? Given that most of the narrower than the old but well-loved Enve SES Aero bars are track-style designs, I was biased toward a track-style bar.

You also have the divots for the wrist (their idea, not mine) vs. not having them, which forces the wrist inside the ramps like they are on the Enve SES Aero bars. The divots work well and allow a more natural angle for the arms and wrists when in the aero hood position. I pushed a little for more reach on the bar, but that was rejected.

I also had no trouble with the hose routing, which could have been due to the extra 2mm of bar thickness.

TLDR; Bikedoc HB24 should be stiffer,  but the difference is the shape being an adapted (wider) track bar vs a small width road bar.

@Sakizashi since you're in the biz, I wanted to throw out the question: any idea how long we should expect it to take for integrated-stem designs to start showing up? I know probably not for a while, since the western brands haven't even started making them. But I was curious if you had any insight into what's driving new products.

[bremerradkurier]

Cable conduits in integrated handlebars would be a huge improvement.

[Sakizashi]

@Sakizashi since you're in the biz, I wanted to throw out the question: any idea how long we should expect it to take for integrated-stem designs to start showing up? I know probably not for a while, since the western brands haven't even started making them. But I was curious if you had any insight into what's driving new products.

Feels weird to say "in the biz," since it feels more like dipping a toe in the water as this is a side gig. That said, the barrier here is that to make integrated bars that are narrow but still fit people using bike frames currently on the market. We are looking at a +30mm to +40mm shift in stem length due to reach and the change in arm position. If you had a range of narrow bars with stem lengths going from 120mm to 180mm, I wonder how many people would buy them or how to forecast demand. However, this same issue is why I don't own the rights to this design, so if I do another design, I need to either roll the dice or find a way to get comfortable with it.

Bike fitting is also such a tradition-driven pseudo-science that it will take a while for people to realize what works and doesn't. I think there is also a question of whether some riders should be going back to their "designed" frame size vs. sizing down or even sizing up in some cases. In addition, bars this narrow turn design on their head a little bit. These bars are narrow enough that most people can either touch or almost touch their thumbs from the aero hood's position, so the rider's position limits the impact of integration and aero design. You also have a bike computer up front in most cases, and these bars are wider at the hoods than the TooT or Worx designs. I would be shocked if there is much to gain from integration, which is probably why integrated designs aren't emerging faster.

With all that said, I am slowly sketching options for a v2 version of this bar that I want to own the molds. I am still deciding if it should stop at doing the routing like Cervelo / the new Zipp bar or if it makes sense to design a stem system / integrated one-piece solution. Protecting the design long enough for me not to lose money is another problem, but I will cross that bridge when I get there.

[elmtree]

I imagine non integrated stem will be a better user experience because people might not realize how long they need to go.

I have the non-bikedoc ones coming right now. We'll see how they are. I personally would want the same hoods, but more flare. More drag, but at least sprinting might be a bit easier. I do wonder if more flare would lean the levers in too far though.