pending seeing that the large is actually the SC XL (which the chart says it is), then I'm in on a Large/19". Keep in mind that Haideli's large is SC's XL, the m is an L, and the s appears to be an m. If this is confirmed then I am a large. 

Location: BC Canada.

would prefer the bike with a primer only, no paint if possible.

Offset bushings don't really work in reverse unfortunately. They have a tendency to rotate to the slacker positioning in short order, so it won't really work for very long.

You can't determine the exact travel when swapping a 42.5 to a 45 because you have to take axle path in to account, and most bikes don't move through their travel relative to shock stroke in a linear manner. So it's kinda unpredictable exactly how much more travel you'll get. You can do a simple approximation but it isn't elegant and won't really get you the answer you want.

The inelegant way is that 45mm is roughly 6% more than 42.5. So that's approximately 127mm of travel. But as I said, that's an approximation and the math will work better for some frames than others.

I don't want flip chips particularly, I'm just curious to see how close they are. The SC links look more refined than the prototype one of these we've seen so far (obviously).  If I end up getting one I'll measure it up and find out some time.


I've heard high end SC bikes are made in china now. I'm not assuming they got their hands on an exact SC and took it apart...but the mold measurements? Maybe.

Oh man! My massive, massive, edit didn't save yesterday.

First off, If you've used a negative rise stem full on XC race bike then you'll feel somewhat at home here.

I changed "downsides" to considerations, as for some they will be problematic but you can make adjustments to compensate and solve these but some people will face issues which can't always be assessed right away or riding.

1.  The biggest issue that some will face is that as seat tube angles go beyond 75 degrees or so, there's a chance that some will experience knee issues from increased forward pressure and the reduction of the angle of your legs. It puts more force in to your knees so certain people will experience knee pain. We are going to see more of this over time, as it might not become apparent for a while.  The 'free' solution is to move your seat to the back of the rails, or you can use an offset seat post. Both of these things reduce the steep seat angle and maybe defeat the whole point of the steep seat tube angle. Instead you should swap to shorter cranks if you think this might be an issue or it becomes an issue over time. If you're building frame up, I dont think there's any disadvantage to use 5mm shorter cranks than you would on a traditional bike.

2. you need a longer stroke dropper post to get the same feel as an older style bike. Just a note.

3. Forward hand pressure/arm/shoulder pressure could be a problem for riders that prefer a relaxed fit. This new school geo puts similar forward leans to negative rise XC bikes, but with slight riser bars and stems rather than flat bars and upside down stems. So some less athletic riders will get tired faster or experience hand/arm/shoulder discomfort. This can be remedied with riser bars, shorter stems, riser stems (who uses these on real bikes though?), and in an extreme example, going to a frame size down (which people do to themselves all the time, for better or worse).

As you can see, they can all be dealt with, but if you've never touched a 'new school' bike then they're worth keeping in mind. Most young/apathetic people wont have any issues whatsoever, but if you've had injuries in the past or similar you could run in to problems.

If you haven't ridden a bike with "modern" upright geometry I suggest you do. The steep seat tube angles make reach feel much shorter (effective reach?) so it doesn't offer a direct comparison to older geometry  bikes. If you have a store nearby pedal something around the parking at least if possible. If not, I wouldn't worry too much if you were already happy on a true cross country fit in an XL before.

The downsides of this modern geometry are:

Some Hightower reviews i read mention how Santa Cruz tuned the shock for the new low link VPP. How do you think the performance of this bike will be affected by the lack of specialized tune? Will it feel really different than an actual Hightower?

Many, many bikes get a custom tune over the m/m baseline you'll usually get aftermarket. You end up with a couple options here.

1. Assume its exactly the same as the hightower and order a shock with a tune for a hightower right away (expensive and you have to buy a new shock)
2. Get whatever shock used/aftermarket and then play around with the options available to you until it's "good enough"
3. do #2 but get a custom tune done after you spend some time on the bike.

If you browse the SC hightower thread on MTBR many of them aren't happy with the stock tune anyway.

Has anyone looked in to confirming the geometry chart? I can see it's lifted from the hightower, but with the sizing offset. It seems weird that they'd choose to produce M-XXL rather than S-XL as their chart shows. I'd strongly consider getting one of these for fun but I'd hate to end up ordering a large expecting an actual XL bike but in reality getting true to size large.