Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: bvhaute on April 22, 2023, 04:58:57 PM
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For some reason or another, the topic "VeloBuild Headset Play Issue Using Separate Stem/Handlebar: Resolved." is corrupted.
From page 4 on it has become unreadable. Page 1 to 3 are still readable. What is also strange is that when you're not logged in, page 4 is still readable.
I also noted that it is possible to still add replies by reacting to messages from pages 1 to 3.
Who should I contact to resolve the problem?
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This has happened before here with other threads.
My assumption was that it was a specific post that contained some kind of content that broke the HTML on a particular page but affecting multiple pages might mean something internal to the site, SMF forum engine, or the database it’s running on.
CT is running on a fairly outdated version of SMF, 2.0.7 — whereas the latest version is 2.1.3. Simply updating might fix this…
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OK, thanks for the feedback. And did the issue with the other threads get resolved then and if so, how then?
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As I recall, things were pretty much just left that way. But the last time I recall was about a year ago.
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OK, any way that I can report this to an admin to resolve this problem? There is not alot of information on this website on how to report problems. :(
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OK, any way that I can report this to an admin to resolve this problem? There is not alot of information on this website on how to report problems. :(
The "report to moderator" button in the bottom right of each post alerts me directly to my email... that is how I found out about this thread and I try to be as responsive as possible. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea what is causing the issue you brought up or how to fix it. As FullCarbonAlchemist pointed out it may have something to do with the forum software needing to be updated and I'm working on that. I apologize for any inconvenience and am sorry I couldn't be of more help, hopefully, these issues will be remedied with the updates.
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Thanks for the feedback. Is it Ok then if I start a new thread on this specific "velobuild headset play issue" and if I copy/paste the complete unreadable page 4 from the old thread into the new thread?
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Thanks for the feedback. Is it Ok then if I start a new thread on this specific "velobuild headset play issue" and if I copy/paste the complete unreadable page 4 from the old thread into the new thread?
Of course, whatever helps you guys keep the valuable info/discussions accessible.
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Hi everyone - We wanted to share a quick update and let you know we have been listening to your feedback and have designed a new c ring. The new design has a small cut out that allows for a better grip on the steerer to take place once the headset is compressed.
For those that are having issues, please get in touch at info@velobuild.com so we can sort you out with a newly designed c ring. For those that are still using the original or second design without issue, please know you can continue using them without concern!
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I would like to try this new C ring out. Right now on my GF002 I have developed a slight play after about 2k miles and a few hacks that I did earlier.
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Hi everyone - We wanted to share a quick update and let you know we have been listening to your feedback and have designed a new c ring. The new design has a small cut out that allows for a better grip on the steerer to take place once the headset is compressed.
For those that are having issues, please get in touch at info@velobuild.com so we can sort you out with a newly designed c ring. For those that are still using the original or second design without issue, please know you can continue using them without concern!
Will this new C-ring now be standard on both the GF-01/02 and the roadbikes (168/177)?
Does anybody allready have experience with the new ring? If the problem is solved, it looks like the perfect frame(s) now :)
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Hi everyone - We wanted to share a quick update and let you know we have been listening to your feedback and have designed a new c ring. The new design has a small cut out that allows for a better grip on the steerer to take place once the headset is compressed.
For those that are having issues, please get in touch at info@velobuild.com so we can sort you out with a newly designed c ring. For those that are still using the original or second design without issue, please know you can continue using them without concern!
After what order shipment dates was this change made? I have a CX002 from January - does this have the updated design?
Since these are running changes, can you state the order ship date ranges for the Rev 1, 2, and 3 (new) of this part?
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Hi everyone - We wanted to share a quick update and let you know we have been listening to your feedback and have designed a new c ring. The new design has a small cut out that allows for a better grip on the steerer to take place once the headset is compressed.
For those that are having issues, please get in touch at info@velobuild.com so we can sort you out with a newly designed c ring. For those that are still using the original or second design without issue, please know you can continue using them without concern!
Hi ,
Thanks velobuild for that quick response in the change if the CRing design !
After our discussion where I refer you to the post of @Zdrenka89 and @BerndSon post in the VBR-168 thread , I didn't expect a so quick new c ring version !
Seriouly consider bying the VBR168 !
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Talked to Chris and looks like my C ring is on the way.
Though, observing the design I am now curious how does it solve the play issue exactly - is the main cut-out smaller than before? Also can someone explain how does that small slit on the outer curvature help grip steerer better - not being snarky, I am just curious.
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Though, observing the design I am now curious how does it solve the play issue exactly - is the main cut-out smaller than before? Also can someone explain how does that small slit on the outer curvature help grip steerer better - not being snarky, I am just curious.
My guess is:
The slit in the back makes the C-Ring more flexible. The previous version was too stiff, which results to needing very high headset preload forces in order to deform the C-Ring and remove the headset play. The newer version is more flexible and then requires less force to deform.
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My guess is:
The slit in the back makes the C-Ring more flexible. The previous version was too stiff, which results to needing very high headset preload forces in order to deform the C-Ring and remove the headset play. The newer version is more flexible and then requires less force to deform.
If this is the explanation, wouldn't it suffice to saw a couple of slits in the original C-ring?
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I think I have the 2nd generation... If that's the only change (appears to be the case), then I may try to cut a slit/groove in mine to see if it helps since I'm building the bike this weekend.
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If this is the explanation, wouldn't it suffice to saw a couple of slits in the original C-ring?
Good point. Also, and I could be wrong but I thought the compression force would be from top to bottom and not sideways/diagonal to actually deform the C ring that way :S
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[img]My problem seems to be that the height of the c-ring is too small. When I tighten the top cap, the dust cap gets pressed down onto the head tube from my frame, and not onto the c-ring, which results in my handlebars getting stuck and unable to steer...
In order to fix this problem I ordered some microspacers to put onto the c-ring (see picture).
I had to cut the microspacers though, so they would fit the C-form from the C-ring.
This way I can tighten the top cap without the dust cover getting pressed down onto the top of the head tube.
I wonder if the problem lies with the C-ring (height too low), or the top bearing sitting too low into the head tube ...
Anyhow, I have a bad feeling about the (cut) microspacers and the c-ring, so I would rather have a new C-ring which requires no microspacers. Anyone now if the latest update for the C-ring changed anything on the dimension (height)?
edit: another possible cause of the problem might be the dimensions of the bearings or maybe top and bottom bearing got switched? Anyone know if the top and bottom bearing have other dimensions and could be installed incorrectly (switched)?
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Good point. Also, and I could be wrong but I thought the compression force would be from top to bottom and not sideways/diagonal to actually deform the C ring that way :S
tightening force indeed is in the steerer tube axis but in order to compress the c ring in diameter-wise direction there are the 45° chamfers in the bearing as well as the c ring. This inclined plain results in the radial force that compresses the C-Ring. This compression effect is the main function of the c-ring, -indispensable when it comes to avoiding headset play. (Unless you increase the tightening force way higher than it should be with all of its other drawbacks or try the vice-hack i showed earlier in the 168Thread)
ride on,
bernd
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OK, so I fixed the situation pretty easily. I bought the Deda compression ring 45 degrees:
(https://www.tradeinn.com/f/13824/138244301/deda-compressie-ring-voor-dcr-systeem.jpg)
First I sawed the largest part of the top (circa 2mm I guess) with a hacksaw and then I ground the top down a smal bit at a time with a Dremel tool till it was at the correct height to compress correctly but also not leave a gap between the frame and the headset cover (there is still a very minimal gap say 0,5mm). I also used a Deda 70mm expander plug to get a bit more grip while tightening the top cap. No play anymore and a very cheap solution.
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OK, so I fixed the situation pretty easily. I bought the Deda compression ring 45 degrees:
(https://www.tradeinn.com/f/13824/138244301/deda-compressie-ring-voor-dcr-systeem.jpg)
First I sawed the largest part of the top (circa 2mm I guess) with a hacksaw and then I ground the top down a smal bit at a time with a Dremel tool till it was at the correct height to compress correctly but also not leave a gap between the frame and the headset cover (there is still a very minimal gap say 0,5mm). I also used a Deda 70mm expander plug to get a bit more grip while tightening the top cap. No play anymore and a very cheap solution.
would like to have pictures of the final work on the pieces.
I still have difiiculties to figure out the work you did on the piece
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Hi, I just assembled everything, so I'll try and explain better. The Deda compression ring is higher than the original provided C-ring. So you need to shave a couple of mm's of the top of the ring. So you grind down the ring to the required height. The smaller bottom part of the Deda ring fits in the bearing perfectly, but if you leave the wider upper part at the original height you will be left with circa 4mm of space between the frame and the headset cover.
I tried to do my best to illustrate in paint :). You need to grind the ring down to the red lines. So remove the purple material in smalls steps at a time to check if it is still high enough to compress the headset.
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OK, so I fixed the situation pretty easily. I bought the Deda compression ring 45 degrees:
I had considered this also as a possible fix to my problem, but it seems that this Deda compression ring is no longer available to purchase. Where did you get it?
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I bought it here: https://bicimondo.com/product/3524/deda-elementi-compression-ring-for-dcr-headset-45-x45-pa66-nylon-black
Seems like I bought the last one, but I read this should work too:
https://bicimondo.com/product/3523/deda-elementi-compression-ring-for-acr-headset-36-x45-pa66-nylon-black
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Couldn't you just rub it over some sanding paper to get the right height? A dremel seems so "crude"
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I thought the hacksaw was the "crude" part, but sure you could use sanding paper. But it is very hard nylon, so you'll be at it for a while. The Dremel bit I used was also just sandpaper on a roll, but it went a lot quicker than manually grinding sand paper over the ring:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Rh29aDw2L._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
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Hi all, I think I might be able to help with solution to maintain preload. I have been working with the different internal headset routing systems for a while and have been running on my personal bikes a hybrid system using the Deda compression ring and a custom dust cover to mate to the FSA split spacer and ACR / SMR system. Some photos if what I have been working on are below. I have also been working a generic fitment as well as one specific to the -17 Kalloy uno. All of those designs were designed to reduce stack and are electronic group only as cable housings can't make the tight bends required, but that doesn't have to be the case if more / different spacers are used.
I could adjust the skirt length and thickness of the dust cover to provide a better fit to bikes that do not use a countersunk dust cover, though the system would not have a seal other than what is on the bearing. I would also be willing to make an FSA ACR to Velobuild one piece handlebar adapter plate assuming that most of the frames use the same spacer stack and interface. I would need help getting some measurements of one of the spacers that fits into the bottom of the handlebar or send one to me (and be willing to try out a dust cover and adapter to make sure they fit)
I was previously on the Velobuild forums (2009-2011ish?) and you can find me on a few bike discords as well. This is also a hobby for me and I would price everything at cost + taxes. I will probably eventually open an etsy store or something and these would be about 30USD + shipping with everything MJF printed using Pa12GB + you would need to buy either the Deda headset or the compression ring.
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Hi everyone - We wanted to share a quick update and let you know we have been listening to your feedback and have designed a new c ring. The new design has a small cut out that allows for a better grip on the steerer to take place once the headset is compressed.
For those that are having issues, please get in touch at info@velobuild.com so we can sort you out with a newly designed c ring. For those that are still using the original or second design without issue, please know you can continue using them without concern!
I have the first version, with the tiny pins on the top. It is almost impossible to mantain the headset tightened, after one or two rides it gets losened.
It is also very noisy, everytime I stand up on pedals, I hear "cracking" noise coming from the stem/headset. It could be due to the 4cm of spacers I am still using, or to the internal cables. I have shimano di2 11v and cable/mechanic brakes.
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I thought the hacksaw was the "crude" part, but sure you could use sanding paper. But it is very hard nylon, so you'll be at it for a while. The Dremel bit I used was also just sandpaper on a roll, but it went a lot quicker than manually grinding sand paper over the ring:
I managed to find a website that still had the 45x45° DEDA compression ring. When I compare it to the original Velobuild compression ring it looks very similar, but it is +/- 0,5cm higher. I will go for the sanding route with a bosch orbital sanding machine.
Did you manage to get a smooth, flat and parallel surface with the hacksaw and the dremel, because this seems nearly impossible to me?
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It is actually very similar except the height difference. With the Dremel the surface was smooth, but not completely level. But close enough to solve the problem. You could even it out by taping some sandpaper on a flat wood surface and make a few last passes on that to level it out.
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Update: I dremelled a similar slot to the new design from VB on my "gen 2" C-Ring and I believe it worked! I just built up a CX-002 with the full internal handlebars and after road ride and a 40 mile gravel/rough-road/dirt-road ride, I think it's safe to say there is no headset play or rattles. There is a slight creak when I stand on it and mash the pedals, but I think I just need to retighten the headset bolt (things may have settled) and put some carbon paste on the steerer tube. I'll report back if this fixes the minor issue.
Additional notes:
I DIY spray painted my bike and did not mask off the headset bearing area, so there's a little build up of paint there, which takes up some of the gap around the bearing. I think some loctite 638 retaining compound may help if your frame is not painted there and has gaps. Or tape, per Pat's suggestion.
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Just want to point out that a headset that cannot maintain preload is not a minor issue.
Riding a loose headset is the cause of the “ring of death” phenomena found on carbon steerers. In most cases, it’s a result of neglect and a lack of maintenance. In this case, this is a critical safety issue caused by poor design.
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I recently received the new velobuild c ring and it is a big improvement! With the original c ring + microspacers or the kocevelo ring + microspacers I still had a tiny bit of front-back play. Had to push forward on the back of the steerer to notice it. With the new ring there is no more play at all! I still had to use some microspacers with the kocevelo bar combo spacers but maybe with the velobuild bar combo it isn't needed now. The new version is much taller and has a larger opening. Here's an album comparing the original c ring and the new version:
https://imgur.com/a/rupJ6Cd
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Definitely a big improvement. I removed all the metal shims from spacers and replaced older no cut-out C ring with latest. That's it. Although there is no difference between height or the opening, as mentioned in above comment. They are exactly the same minus the cut-out.
Fwiw, finishing on the old C ring was better than the newer but I don't care.
Thanks VB for keeping up with improvements in products and also sending them out to existing customers immediately.
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There is a slight creak when I stand on it and mash the pedals, but I think I just need to retighten the headset bolt (things may have settled) and put some carbon paste on the steerer tube. I'll report back if this fixes the minor issue.
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After several rides and tightening things down more, it seems that's all it was: my stem/bars were not torqued properly. I also added some carbon paste to help there. The only thing that rattles now are the GRX levers, which is a common problem lol. So, I think this notched C-clip helps with the headset play issue - I am not experiencing any right out of the box on my new build.
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Just installed the new C ring that Chris kindly sent and it's got rid of all headset play that I have (which was very minor using the original C ring).
As above I must say this is great service by Velobuild to take on the feedback, correct the error and ship the updated part out completely free of charge without any questions asked. Not many mainstream companies would do this let alone 'Chiner' brands.