Thoughts on modern frame geometry trends? Steep seat tubes? High stack?

[mindflash]

Guys, which frame models fall into this modern category? I am riding size S Giant Propel MY2023 with +5mm saddle foreaft and 360/90 EXS Aerover integrated handleba with 30mm spacers. Short legs, long torso, short arms. Most of the frames still feel too long and low for me, the closest fit outgoing Enve Melee.

[patliean1]

The overall wheelbases on both my Winspace T1600 Ultra and ER One are pretty short for my saddle-forward setup.

If I lived somewhere with a lot of sustained mountain descents I definitely would consider using a frame with a longer wheelbase that still allows me to get fairly low on the front end as my primary bike.

The current Polygon Helios-A, and even a sized up Canyon Aeroad come to mind. Shame the Factor One is both ugly and expensive.

[Sakizashi]

Guys, which frame models fall into this modern category? I am riding size S Giant Propel MY2023 with +5mm saddle foreaft and 360/90 EXS Aerover integrated handleba with 30mm spacers. Short legs, long torso, short arms. Most of the frames still feel too long and low for me, the closest fit outgoing Enve Melee.

Right now best options are:
- Ridley Noah Fast 3.0
- Factor One
- Merckx 525R

I think a lot of people and the Dare VA AFO to the list too which, IMO its not quite the there. The VB368 also isn't there though it's a move in the right direction at the larger sizes. Similarly, you can also take steps in the right direction by not sizing down an aggressive race geo frame and if you can make the stack work ride a frame size larger for the length and running a 150mm stem on it. This is best done on a size by size basis, so know your your current frame and spacer situation can be helpful.

As always make sure you can safely handle the bike when doing these kinds of experiments.

[Dareios]

The overall wheelbases on both my Winspace T1600 Ultra and ER One are pretty short for my saddle-forward setup.

If I lived somewhere with a lot of sustained mountain descents I definitely would consider using a frame with a longer wheelbase that still allows me to get fairly low on the front end as my primary bike.

The current Polygon Helios-A, and even a sized up Canyon Aeroad come to mind. Shame the Factor One is both ugly and expensive.

The Stromm might suit you.
I think it is funny that my 2017 rim brake Rose Pro CGF 2017 would actually be kinda good for that with a zero offset seatpost, saddle slammed forward and a REALLY long stem.
https://geometrygeeks.bike/bike/rose-pro-cgf-2017/

I am 183cm tall with an 88cm inseam, but my arms are average length and more important, my forarms are almost as long as my upper arms, so higher stack and more reach actually makes sense for me.

[JensenMacD]

I had previously mentioned being on the verge of moving everything 2cm forward. I did and happy so far, although it has been 3 short rides as I recover from an injury. The bike is a lightcarbon LCR018. My goal was to maintain the same saddle to shifter reach while moving everything forward.

The saddle is 25mm more forward -15mm offset to 0 offset post and slid saddle forward on the rails
The shifters are 25mm more forward - 90mm stem to 110mm stem and moved the shifters down the bar a bit more. I have gained 4-5mm of stack with the longer bar.

2 rides on the trainer and 1 on the road, about 60km total. I feel less weight on the hands, position feels comfortable but I do feel it more in the quads. On longer rides, will be curious to see how the weight on the hands are, since I am currently 88kg. Last night I slid my cleats 8mm back, as far back as they go on my mid foot adapters, and dropped the saddle 5mm. Hoping this will get a bit more ham/glute. I haven't done anything over 45km yet but will be very curious to see how the bike feels at speed.

Probably not as crazy as some other modern fits on race bikes, but this is a good way to start as I plan to build an LCR020 over the winter with this more forward fit in mind.

Edit: Correct me if I am wrong but I guess my current position will now have 10mm less saddle to bar drop. 5mm from the longer stem and 5mm from dropping the seat post when I adjusted the cleats. So it would make sense I can drop the front end 10mm while maintaining the same drop as before?!?

[TommyGun]

I thought progressive forward fit will make more weight on the hands/palms and therefore more discomfort in palms.

Anyway, your quads probably hurt, because your saddle is now too low. When putting your saddle forward, you also must raise your saddle . Normal in ratio 3/1. So 3mm forward is 1mm up. So you should have it 6-7mm more up. And that is a big differance, and firstly you notice it in quads. To be exact, you should measure original fit from BB to saddle (where sit bones go) and mimic the new position.

[JensenMacD]

I thought progressive forward fit will make more weight on the hands/palms and therefore more discomfort in palms.

Anyway, your quads probably hurt, because your saddle is now too low. When putting your saddle forward, you also must raise your saddle . Normal in ratio 3/1. So 3mm forward is 1mm up. So you should have it 6-7mm more up. And that is a big differance, and firstly you notice it in quads. To be exact, you should measure original fit from BB to saddle (where sit bones go) and mimic the new position.

I would have assumed the same and was expecting to have more weight in the hands. I did 90 minutes yesterday and still less weight in the hands. Not sure why but I will gladly take it.

For the saddle, I maintained the same saddle height when swapping seatposts. I measured BB to where I sit and transferred that height to the new setup. I know moving forward will put more quad focus. That being said, moving the cleats back did take some of that away and I had more glute/hamstring engagement. Beyond playing with saddle tilt a bit, I am going to leave the setup as is and let myself adjust. See how it feels in a few weeks.

[Sakizashi]

Edit: Correct me if I am wrong, but I guess my current position will now have 10mm less saddle-to-bar drop. 5mm from the longer stem and 5mm from dropping the seat post when I adjusted the cleats. So it would make sense that I can drop the front end 10mm while maintaining the same drop as before?!?

I would slow down on the changes and make them one at a time. I am not a fan of midfoot cleats and therefore not well-versed in the adjustments required as a result, but you are going all in on an Ironman-style bike fit.

Purely from a motion diagram perspective, a typical rider's kinetic chain extends up to their lumbar spine--maybe up to the thoracic spine when out of the saddle. Assuming perfectly rigid shoes, midfoot isolates/reduces stress on the lower parts of that chain, shifting work upward. That alone makes the quad do more work. It also removes from consideration a bunch of potential solutions to balancing your pedaling effort across more of your body.

Closing the hip angle and increasing the distance the upper leg travels during the stroke both tend to increase glute recruitment, but this doesn't really map to saddle lower vs. higher if you are already opening the hip angle via a forward position. Your ankles also affect the overall distance the upper leg can travel. By switching to midfoot, you also limit ankling's potential contribution to upper-leg movement.

IMO, most non-triathletes should be using their calves as much as they can if they want more glute recruitment (it's better for your knees too!), as it gives you more freedom to find a fit that works across more of your kinetic chain. If you have really developed calves, a good cleat position is probably close to the ball of the foot; if you don't, it's probably about ~10 mm behind. Experimentally, I would move them forward till you can feel it on long rides, and then move them back slowly until calf soreness isn't an issue.

[Finiesta]

I would slow down on the changes and make them one at a time. I am not a fan of midfoot cleats and therefore not well-versed in the adjustments required as a result, but you are going all in on an Ironman-style bike fit.

Purely from a motion diagram perspective, a typical rider's kinetic chain extends up to their lumbar spine--maybe up to the thoracic spine when out of the saddle. Assuming perfectly rigid shoes, midfoot isolates/reduces stress on the lower parts of that chain, shifting work upward. That alone makes the quad do more work. It also removes from consideration a bunch of potential solutions to balancing your pedaling effort across more of your body.

Closing the hip angle and increasing the distance the upper leg travels during the stroke both tend to increase glute recruitment, but this doesn't really map to saddle lower vs. higher if you are already opening the hip angle via a forward position. Your ankles also affect the overall distance the upper leg can travel. By switching to midfoot, you also limit ankling's potential contribution to upper-leg movement.

IMO, most non-triathletes should be using their calves as much as they can if they want more glute recruitment (it's better for your knees too!), as it gives you more freedom to find a fit that works across more of your kinetic chain. If you have really developed calves, a good cleat position is probably close to the ball of the foot; if you don't, it's probably about ~10 mm behind. Experimentally, I would move them forward till you can feel it on long rides, and then move them back slowly until calf soreness isn't an issue.

Would´nt that forward cleat position increase knee stress and so knee pain? Because in that position the feet would be more backward compared to the knee than with a backward cleat position. Am I correct?

[Sakizashi]

Would´nt that forward cleat position increase knee stress and so knee pain? Because in that position the feet would be more backward compared to the knee than with a backward cleat position. Am I correct?

No. The same power at the same cadence means higher peak loads at the knee if you shorten the lever arm at the foot end of the linkage and reduce the time component over which your ankle moves. Changing cleat position did almost nothing for my knee range of motion.

Remember, we aren't talking about inducing instability or moving the cleats super far forward. They are likely back of the ball of the foot; just not so far back that most people with most shoes would find the range of shoe/cleat adjustment for SPD / SPD SL / Look pedals insufficient.

I think assuming the foot doesn't move relative to normal during the pedal stroke is how we got KOPS.

[srf0638]

No. The same power at the same cadence means higher peak loads at the knee if you shorten the lever arm at the foot end of the linkage and reduce the time component over which your ankle moves. Changing cleat position did almost nothing for my knee range of motion.

I am not quite sure, but I think this analysis glosses over the possibility of different effects at different parts of the ROM. Higher peak load at a more open knee angle may be more sustainable than lower peak load at a more closed knee angle.

Actually, I also don't know that the time component of ankle movement is actually reduced with a midfoot cleat position. Naively, I'd expect the ankle to cover a shorter arc over about the same amount of time.

[Sakizashi]

I am not quite sure, but I think this analysis glosses over the possibility of different effects at different parts of the ROM. Higher peak load at a more open knee angle may be more sustainable than lower peak load at a more closed knee angle.

Actually, I also don't know that the time component of ankle movement is actually reduced with a midfoot cleat position. Naively, I'd expect the ankle to cover a shorter arc over about the same amount of time.

I think this quickly gets into specific joint mobility issues that I am not really qualified to comment on, given my lack of medical training. Though it's hard to understand how or why these scenarios would play out to a significant degree as you mention, as, again, your ankles aren't static--unless there is something specific going on that restricts motion in a specific way.

I *think* most of the video analysis shows that moving the cleats back reduces the ankle's range of motion (in terms of angles). Proponents of the midfoot also often cite fixing heel drop and reducing pointing as a pro.

Some pro triathletes run midfoot positions. When you look at their position on a gravel bike or on a road ride--they largely don't use adapters or special shoes. Interesting anecdata there.