IDing possible Chinese Road Frame

[Serge_K]

So going to eat crow on this one. Found it. I thought it might be from Miracle / Falco based on the design, but didn't expect to find the whole frame. Falco Horus. Not sure how to buy it. OP if you get a geometry chart, please share it / start a new thread about this frame.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DUct3WAE5q4/

Looks like the development going into the Tempo bike...isn't the frame. Unless I am missing something, I am pretty disappointed to see that it's likely not an original design.

Sounds savvier of George Fox to be the "brains" behind a frame, and to let a Chinese factory be the muscle, than to buy your own exclusive moulds, for lots of reasons, including:
- as it's made in china, safely assume the factory will use your IP / product if it's successful, irrespective of "exclusivity". If you're not on the factory floor, you can't control shit.
- chinese OEMs are decently good at geo locking products: it would make sense that Falco would refuse (if not hide on their website) that frame in the UK, for example, or even Europe, so that if you know George, if you've heard of the frame through George, you buy it through him.
- If you need to sell 100 basic handlebars just to break even, and it's one size, imagine how many frames you need to sell before breaking even, knowing you need several sizes. And when doing business, breaking even isn't supposed to be the target / lucky outcome.

Also, it's symbolic of the west vs China: China makes everything, and owns the manufacturing know how, the west is left doing the marketing. If we're lucky, we're still relevant in R&D / design.

[zealot128]

So going to eat crow on this one. Found it. I thought it might be from Miracle / Falco based on the design, but didn't expect to find the whole frame. Falco Horus. Not sure how to buy it. OP if you get a geometry chart, please share it / start a new thread about this frame.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DUct3WAE5q4/

Looks like the development going into the Tempo bike...isn't the frame. Unless I am missing something, I am pretty disappointed to see that it's likely not an original design.

Great find! I did some more digging, that's the company with the golden Leopard TT bike from Shanghai.
They also have a HK shopify https://carbonspace.myshopify.com but that bike is not listed there and the Aliexpress store (Shenzhen Maike Sports Equipment Co., Ltd, probably trading company) under Miracle store, that list some other Falco bikes there.
And Miracle has their own very old-design sites http://www.mira-factory.com/ (ca. 2020) and http://miraclebikes.com (ancient rim-brake etc.).
I always find it baffling when the Chinese companies don't bury (redirect) their old brands, just make up a new brand and leave the old one to rot

[Sakizashi]

Sounds savvier of George Fox to be the "brains" behind a frame, and to let a Chinese factory be the muscle, than to buy your own exclusive moulds, for lots of reasons, including:
- as it's made in china, safely assume the factory will use your IP / product if it's successful, irrespective of "exclusivity". If you're not on the factory floor, you can't control shit.
- chinese OEMs are decently good at geo locking products: it would make sense that Falco would refuse (if not hide on their website) that frame in the UK, for example, or even Europe, so that if you know George, if you've heard of the frame through George, you buy it through him.
- If you need to sell 100 basic handlebars just to break even, and it's one size, imagine how many frames you need to sell before breaking even, knowing you need several sizes. And when doing business, breaking even isn't supposed to be the target / lucky outcome.

Also, it's symbolic of the west vs China: China makes everything, and owns the manufacturing know how, the west is left doing the marketing. If we're lucky, we're still relevant in R&D / design.

This is some AI-level brainrot. The Chinese factory is always the "muscle." The engineer/designer is the "brain." If you, as an outside engineer, take an idea to a factory on a contract manufacturing basis, as most of the bike industry does, that is the status quo. That has nothing to do with whether you pay for the molds or whether there is an exclusivity arrangement.

If you say you are developing a bike for your bike brand and post photos of a bike in a wind tunnel. I expect the technical work to involve the bike. If Tempo were developing this bike at SSE under an IP-share arrangement with Falco, I would expect them to have worked out the marketing together, as positioning the bike as wind-tunnel-developed would benefit both Tempo and Falco. Yet, the bike is still under development from Tempo, but looks like a finished product from Falco.

AFAIK, this is not the case with Vanquish, and the specific Tri bike they sell is not something Falco has a photo of on their website. The TT918 is similar, but it is still a different frame.

Most customers aren't going to know or care about the economics involved here. Businesses run on trust. Trust that the factory won't steal your idea and cause a legal headache. Trust that they will honor their contract. Consumer trust that their money gets them the product they paid for. Why would I trust a story that looks increasingly shady?

[Dareios]

The Gara Italia guy, who is also selling the Velobuild Aerotrace under his name, sells pretty much the same frame under his brand as IMPACT  F92. 1.
The only difference is the "windeye", but this one is not part of the rear triangle, unlike the Seka Spear.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DaXVlvMuIrV/
It really just seems to be the road version of the Miracle/Falco TT-bike.
https://www.instagram.com/falcobikes_/p/DacXMWCmH3X/

I do have a geometry chart of that Gara Italia bike somewhere among my E-Mails, but I remember it being rather generic and not modern/progressive.

[Serge_K]

This is some AI-level brainrot. The Chinese factory is always the "muscle." The engineer/designer is the "brain." If you, as an outside engineer, take an idea to a factory on a contract manufacturing basis, as most of the bike industry does, that is the status quo. That has nothing to do with whether you pay for the molds or whether there is an exclusivity arrangement.

Thank you, i did suspect that there indeed was something wrong with my brain, it is liberating to know i'm now officially cognitively impaired. I can therefore, finally, go full retard.
didn't you write that you need to sell 100 bars just to break even? Isn't that primarily to cover mould manufacturing costs?
TT man speaks factory: "me help you make fast frame, you me prototypes, me wind tunnel, me tests". TT man has developed frame, TT man needs not sell kidney then sell 300 frames to break even, capex not his problem. Materials not his problem. TT man rides bikes. Factory gives regional exclusivity, factory sells fast frame, factory flex.
Me love you long time.

If you say you are developing a bike for your bike brand and post photos of a bike in a wind tunnel. I expect the technical work to involve the bike. If Tempo were developing this bike at SSE under an IP-share arrangement with Falco, I would expect them to have worked out the marketing together, as positioning the bike as wind-tunnel-developed would benefit both Tempo and Falco. Yet, the bike is still under development from Tempo, but looks like a finished product from Falco.

Speculoos / speculation.

Businesses run on trust. Trust that the factory won't steal your idea and cause a legal headache. Trust that they will honor their contract.

You can wish.com all you want. I wish all my gfs had generous bosoms and thought me funny. Alas, most of the time they're dudes and they beat me up.

[Sakizashi]

Thank you, i did suspect that there indeed was something wrong with my brain, it is liberating to know i'm now officially cognitively impaired. I can therefore, finally, go full retard.
didn't you write that you need to sell 100 bars just to break even? Isn't that primarily to cover mould manufacturing costs?
TT man speaks factory: "me help you make fast frame, you me prototypes, me wind tunnel, me tests". TT man has developed frame, TT man needs not sell kidney then sell 300 frames to break even, capex not his problem. Materials not his problem. TT man rides bikes. Factory gives regional exclusivity, factory sells fast frame, factory flex.
Me love you long time.

Speculoos / speculation.
You can wish.com all you want. I wish all my gfs had generous bosoms and thought me funny. Alas, most of the time they're dudes and they beat me up.

Lol.

No, the cost of the molds is not the majority of the cost. It's not even the highest cost single expense item. There is a lot more to building a product than factory costs. Items like patents, R&D, and building an effective retail channel are more or less fixed costs regardless of what you sell; in theory, they will also apply across multiple product generations and even to future products. Also remember that, while frame molds cost more, these Falco Tri frames are like 2-4K USD, so it's potentially fewer units to break even in the frame business.

Contracts are just sources of leverage. IP is just another source of leverage. At the end of the day, people who want to, will steal and cheat. The only logic-based ways to mitigate it are to make it not worth it and to base supplier selection on suppliers whose business goals are compatible with yours. The way you suggest doing things costs less money, but also results in zero leverage for the company aside from the production volume they signed up for in exchange for "regional" exclusivity. You can lose with a higher-risk, higher-capex strategy if you trust the wrong people, but you will certainly lose if your only source of leverage is projected sales volume. After all, if you're one of many competing against a factory with its own D2C sales, what happens when the factory finds a more efficient sales channel? The method you describe carries more risk and relies more on supplier trust than doing your own development.

Anyway, companies like Vanquish (and Culprit) that are putting in the work to bring a novel product to market appear to be doing so, which is really cool.