2014 RIP 9 RDO Replica?

[Chinertown Idiot]

Okay so the "Tell em what you want" thread: http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,20.0.html got me to thinking.. and what I really want is a 2014 RIP9 for a third of the cost. I mean it IS one of the absolute most popular / most respected 29er frames around right now. If I was producing and selling these Chinese carbon frames that seems like a no brainer (if I'm already replicating frames anyways) to choose the most popular one out as your model?

Anyways.. yeah.. make one and I and lots of other folks will be buying it.

I understand dome might be upset by such a request but I see little point in beating around the bush at this point. We all know that research and development is not what these Chinese carbon guys do. Many of the Chinese frames are known and preferred by their similarities to big name brand frames. Cat is out of the bag. I want a cheap RIP 9.

[Carbon_Dude]

Specifically, I think you are wanting the RIP 9 RDO since that is the carbon model.  Below is a picture.  Since I'm into XC riding, the RIP 9 RDO would be overkill since it has way more suspension travel than I would need.  Also, the Chiner bikes tend to stick with 100mm rear travel XC designs because they are not really designed to take big hits or big drops.  Personally, I am surprised that none of the Chinese vendor have come out with a DW-Link style frame, for me a Turner Czar replica, but in Carbon, would be ideal.  Up until last year, Turner did not even make a carbon frame, but now they have a carbon Czar .  The Czar is a 100mm XC oriented design.

Here is a picture of a RIP 9 RDO:




Here is a picture of the XC oriented Turner Czar that I would love to see a Chinese replica of:

[Chinertown Idiot]

Yes.. That's what I meant, the new RDO RIP. I changed the title to reflect that.

Yeah.. It is more bike than I really need too to be honest.. but I already have a high end hardtail.. When I get a full suspension, I want to go bigger and maybe work my into some gnarlier trails eventually.

I'm not even certain that these Chinese suppliers are at the point where they could replicate the frame, anyways. The new RIP RDO uses bad ass headset bearings for it's pivots. Pretty sweet, but I'm only assuming that might would be a challenge for the Chiner guys.

[Rigid_Bloke]

Doubt they could produce that kind of quality in the pivots as you pointed out, but I would indeed buy one of they did.

[Izzy]

Doubt they could produce that kind of quality in the pivots as you pointed out, but I would indeed buy one of they did.

This.

As absolutely sweet as it would be to get a Chiner RIP9 for about 1k.. The RDO has  bit of innovation that I would think would make it rather difficult for the Chinese guys to reproduce. And that is a beautiful thing. Means big companies need to actually innovate if they want to stay around.

[Sitar_Ned]

I'd like to see this:



Been doing a lot of reading on 27.5 and am for the first time giving that wheel size a closer look.

So the Turner is a DW Link style suspension? And so what is the technical name of the IP-036 suspension design?

[caderader]

Think it's just Single Pivot Point (SPP), but I'm not very knowledgable on suspension.

[Carbon_Dude]

The design of the shock mount on the Intense Tracer frame you posted above is basically the same as the XMIplay IP-156, the difference between the two frames is the other pivot on the Intense is near the bottom bracket, on the IP-156 it's out on the seat stay.  I'm sure both work well and I might prefer the Intense design if it weren't $3,300.

Think it's just Single Pivot Point (SPP), but I'm not very knowledgable on suspension.

The IP-036/IP-156 are "Linkage Driven Single Pivot" designs which is really 4-bar linkage design.  There is a simpler Single Pivot design (3-bar linkage) that has been around longer and were some of the first rear suspension designs.  For XC riding, I tend to see more 4-bar Single Pivot designs from the big name bike companies.  There are a few notable DW-Link XC designs from Turner, Norco, and Pivot that have done well but can be heavier.  Giant has a DW-Link variant they call Maestro.  I said there seemed to be basically two designs on the market for XC bikes but I suppose there are many variations on single pivot and DW Link options.

[Sitar_Ned]

Thanks for the clarification, CD.. Definitely convenient to have a mechanical engineer on the forum!

I actually did notice that the Intense Frame had a very similar shock mount design as the 036 and 156, and that really the only difference was, as you pointed out, the location of the rear pivot... but there's also that extra link on the Intense which I assume is the DW link.. Am I accurate in thinking that that the 036/156 without that extra link would be more dependent on the performance of the shock, whereas the Tracer would be less dependent on the shock and more so on the suspension to maintain an efficient pedaling platform? For example the 036/156 may be more dependent on you flipping the lever on your shock when hitting a big climb, but with the Tracer you'd be less likely to need to switch settings on your rear shock?

Also, yeah.. I think I may would prefer the design of the Tracer but it would literally cost me more for just the frame, than it would cost me for the entire bike build with the Chinese carbon route. Not happening. I'm failry certain that it's just a matter of time before we can choose from a wide range of suspension offerings from the Chindors. I'll also agree that I doubt they are at a point to where they could replicate the RDO just yet. That thing is beautiful, btw.. total work of bike art.

[Rigid_Bloke]

They absolutely could replicate the carbon Turner Czar, but I got $20 that says an attempt at the RDO would be a total fail.

Reading through this thread.. I'm starting to see the there are really only a few basic variations on suspension design. The RDO and Czar use similar designs, it's just that it looks different. Add that to all of the marketing buzz words the mtb industry likes to use and it seems like there is a million suspension options on the market.

I will say that on the Czar, the pivot bearings look tiny to me, and even the IP-036 bearings look more substantial than that. Not sure if that matters but I did notice it.

[Sitar_Ned]

Close up of the Turner:

[Carbon_Dude]

I think the extra linkage creates a virtual pivot point, more complexity, but can allow the rear wheel to travel in a more vertical path.  My 2004 Specialized Epic had something similar which provided a very good FS ride.  Since then Specialzed has changed that design to be more like the single pivot designs we see from other manufacturers.  The biggest issue I had with my 26" Epic was the low bottom bracket height, lots of pedal strikes and I needed to be really careful when gong over log piles.  I know the Epic 29er improved the BB height but the new design removed the lower link which makes it more like an IP-036, just with a Brain Shock so it has the auto-lockout which can be debated as to how well it works.

The Fox CTD shock on my IP-036 works really well.  Full open (D-mode) the suspension is very active and soaks up the bumps, in T-mode, shock compression from pedaling is minimal while still absorbing small-med bumps, in C-mode the shock is 90% locked out but still provides absorption of small bumps.

So in today's single pivot designs, the shock can do more of the work and can make up for the simpler, less tuned, suspension design.

[Chinertown Idiot]

^^ SO what you're saying is if you get a full suspension Chiner in their current offerings... Don't cheap out on the shock?

Also, it's interesting that you all pretty much agree that the Chinese carbon companies wouldn't be able to replicate the RDO frame. I have to disagree. I think you guys may be underestimating how easy it is to copy an already produced design and overestimating the amount of innovation in the RIP9 RDO. They just used a fancy rocker arm (think that's what it's called) and over sized headset type bearings for the pivots. Same old, same old.

It's like Taco Bell.. A hundred menu choices, but just a few ingredients. Okay so that wasn't the best analogy. Whatever.

I concede that I could be emphatically wrong about RDO and how difficult it would be to produce it.

[Carbon_Dude]

^^ SO what you're saying is if you get a full suspension Chiner in their current offerings... Don't cheap out on the shock?

I like the CTD idea, even though Fox charges a premium for their products, it's nice having both a partial lockout and when fully locked there is some compliance.  I could have gone with the RockShox, and I'm sure I would have been happy with it as well since it would have been quite a bit cheaper.  However, when you pair up the Fox rear shock with a Fox fork and the dual lockout lever, I think the system works really well.

One thing on the dual lock lever, the way Fox implemented it, you need to install a cable splitter,  and the lever requires a bit of effort to engage.  I stopped by the LBS yesterday and looked again at the Scott Twin-Lock system and it is much easier to engage.  It's a much nicer lever overall.  I may look into seeing if I can ditch the Fox lever  and incorporate the Scott lever on my bike.

Here is some good info on the Fox CTD Boost Valve shock I installed:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Fox-Racing-Shox-Float-CTD-Boost-Valve-Remote-Shock-tested-2013.html

[Sitar_Ned]

I know the Epic 29er improved the BB height but the new design removed the lower link which makes it more like an IP-036, just with a Brain Shock so it has the auto-lockout which can be debated as to how well it works.

After a bit of research it appears that the Specialized FSR suspension design is most similar to the 036 and 156. Similar as in the Chindors most likely used the FSR design as their "inspiration".



Even still the rear pivot is in the chain stay rather than the seat stay.. So there may be something even closer.