Sapim CX Ray vs Alpina Hyperlite Aero

[DrRoB]

Dear community,
I need your help in making a decision.
I wanted to order a new wheelset from Lightbicycle (lightweight all-rounder) Airia 47 mm disc with steel spokes. However, I can't decide between Sapim CX Ray and Alpina Hyperlite Aero. What are your experiences? The Sapim are slightly heavier but probably more robust.
Unfortunately I have had no experience with the Alpina so far, but several companies (Farsports C) seem to trust them.

What would you recommend?

I'm a heavy rider, 88 kg, so I have to consider that.

Thanks.

[toxin]

Hyperlites are shallower, so fractionally less aero and less stiff. They should still be stiff enough on the front in most arrangements, but it might be a good idea to go with something stronger on the rear DS.

Farsports actually use a mix of Alpina Ultralite (cx-ray equivalent) and Sapim Super (Alpina Hyperlite equivalent). Make of that what you will.

[Serge_K]

You're a tank. Sapim CX ray is the gold standard. I wouldnt buy something that says hyperlite for a 88kg rider, just like you dont put a tutu on a chihuahua.

[jfcb]

I agree, as you're a heavier rider you will enjoy the extra stiffness more than a couple of grams saved. More robust, stiffer, less trouble. CX-Rays you should go for.

[Tom77]

CX ray & sprint for drive side

[Sebastian]

I’m 80-85kg and I’ve built plenty of wheels for myself and others over the past 15 years. I agree with Serge: CX-Rays are the gold standard. I’d be confident that they will withstand pretty much anything you throw at them. If you feel you need to go lighter, I reckon carbon spokes will be your only option. I got no experience with Alpina spokes, though. Solely due to a lack of availability. What I can say: Superlight 1.5mm cross section spokes like DT Revolutions and Sapim Lasers lack the stiffness that is needed for heavier riders IME. Especially on the rear wheel.

[Pedaldancer]

You're a tank. Sapim CX ray is the gold standard. I wouldnt buy something that says hyperlite for a 88kg rider, just like you dont put a tutu on a chihuahua.

Such a dumb and empty blabla...

Alpina is not a beginner in spokes.
Specifically they use exactly the same steel alloy as Sapim  by checking the data sheets and material properties.
Their manufacturing looks more smooth and clean than Sapim spokes.


However,  the hyperlites are the pendant to CX Ray super spokes and I wouldn't recommend them for 88kg.
The Ultralites can be an alternative choice, they are corresponding to the CX Ray

Depending on the hub geometry it can also make sense to think about CX sprint on the rear drive.

Alpina spokes are legit in any case. I already built wheels with them and they are absolutely fine. No difference to Sapim. Neither during the build nor afterwards in the riding.

[Wet Noodle]

CX-Rays are the gold standard. I’d be confident that they will withstand pretty much anything you throw at them.
...
What I can say: Superlight 1.5mm cross section spokes like DT Revolutions and Sapim Lasers lack the stiffness that is needed for heavier riders IME. Especially on the rear wheel.

That is some confusing use of words. Just to be sure, you meant to say that CX-Rays, while being able to withstand anything you throw at them, lack the stiffness that is needed for heavy riders ... especially on the rear wheel. Right?

Just asking, as Lasers and CX-Rays are supposed to have the same cross sectional area (which means exact same stiffness). Should be similar or the same with Revos and DT's CX-Ray counterpart.

[Pedaldancer]

That is some confusing use of words. Just to be sure, you meant to say that CX-Rays, while being able to withstand anything you throw at them, lack the stiffness that is needed for heavy riders ... especially on the rear wheel. Right?

Just asking, as Lasers and CX-Rays are supposed to have the same cross sectional area (which means exact same stiffness). Should be similar or the same with Revos and DT's CX-Ray counterpart.

You are right about the connection between Laser and CX Ray.
There's just the one additional thing. Due to the cold forging process from circular to the bladed shape the CX Ray gets a bit higher N/mm² value. That's driven by microscopic changes in the inner structures which happens during cold forging.

 

[Kar25]

I have LB Turbo 40/50 wheelsets with LB Pace hubs and Alpina Hyperlight spokes (1280g pair) on a gravel bike and for once (1500km) they take all the abuse very well... I really don't look after them and everything is fine

[Wet Noodle]

cold forging process from circular to the bladed shape the CX Ray gets a bit higher N/mm² value.

The hammered section gets stronger, sure.

But as for stiffness (I'm having a slight deja-vu moment here), I thought conventional wisdom was that Young's modulus - for practical intends and purposes - is a constant for a given steel. And that, only if you look really really closely, you might notice a change in E with cold working (just ever so slightly), but, if anything, it would actually go down, not up. As for numbers - we're talking about differences close to measuring error. Noise basically.

(?)

[Pedaldancer]

The hammered section gets stronger, sure.

But as for stiffness (I'm having a slight deja-vu moment here), I thought conventional wisdom was that Young's modulus - for practical intends and purposes - is a constant for a given steel. And that, only if you look really really closely, you might notice a change in E with cold working (just ever so slightly), but, if anything, it would actually go down, not up. As for numbers - we're talking about differences close to measuring error. Noise basically.

(?)

Regards the data sheets it's more than noise. 
And cold forging raises the stiffness due to grain boundary movements and gliding of layers..Basically a big "crash" crystallographically.. like traffic jam... nothing (atoms and layers)  can move that easy, cause everything is stuck. Well that's frankly a little bit too simple, but that's what happens.

[Wet Noodle]

Regards the data sheets it's more than noise. 
And cold forging raises the stiffness due to grain boundary movements and gliding of layers..Basically a big "crash" crystallographically.. like traffic jam... nothing (atoms and layers)  can move that easy, cause everything is stuck. Well that's frankly a little bit too simple, but that's what happens.

Which data sheets? Seriously, I didn't find any for those two spokes.
Gliding of layers, in elastic deformation? Is that how this works?

Again, anything I find (which may totally be an issue with me finding things) points in the opposite direction, if anything. Findings for what cold working does to the elasticity of steel range between 'stiffness doesn't change at all' and 'stiffness will go down (with enough pre-strain)'.

[Pedaldancer]

Which data sheets? Seriously, I didn't find any for those two spokes.
Gliding of layers, in elastic deformation? Is that how this works?

Again, anything I find (which may totally be an issue with me finding things) points in the opposite direction, if anything. Findings for what cold working does to the elasticity of steel range between 'stiffness doesn't change at all' and 'stiffness will go down (with enough pre-strain)'.

This is not elastic deformation what happens in cold forging. I am sorry this is far too much to explain in a cycling platform.

Sorry if you can't find the values. I found the strength values on spoke comparison. I remember it was a German website. Komponentix , Kurbelix?? I don't remember that that well, sorry
 
If you're more interested in that:
E.g. Pillar spokes shows Force/Strain curves. Sure different company, but material basics behind stay the same


I still stick to the original assessment. Cx super and the Alpina pendant are not the choice for 88kg 

[Sebastian]

Just asking, as Lasers and CX-Rays are supposed to have the same cross sectional area (which means exact same stiffness). Should be similar or the same with Revos and DT's CX-Ray counterpart.

No, they don't. Sapim give a tensile strength of 1500N /m2 for the Laser and 1600N / mm2 for the CX-Ray. But I don't even think it's that. I think it's different alloys in the steel as the much thicker Sapim Race and Sapim Strong have an even lower tensile strength according to Sapim. They also claim that the Laser is "highly flexible", which is exactly what it feels like IME. They do recommend the CX-Ray for nearly every use case including BMX and Downhill. But not the Laser. And that pretty much mirrors my experience having built wheels with both and also with the DT Revos (which are pretty much the same as Sapim Laser). I would not recommend them - at the very least on the rear drive side - for heavier riders. Wheels with these spokes feel noticeably flexier for the same spoke count compared to CX Rays.