Design flaw/quality issue IP-036

[karstenhorn]

Hello

The last week I really started to put some km's on my newly built Ip-036 bought from Peter. After the last ride(some 30 km) I realized that there was a bit more play in the rear triangle/rear wheel and today I decided to take the linkage apart in the triangle and quickly found the culprit. On my bike all bushing bolts are 4 mm too short meaning that they only carry on one side of the "fork" they sit in. Also, the bushing bolts on my frame is quite a bit smaller than the female part, I have measured up to 0.14 mm free play..... I find that hilarious as on my rear triangle I now have 1 lower left "fork" that are partially destroyed on the inside. If there are owners out there that have a IP/CS 036 frame I would strongly suggest to check this if not done so already. I will contact Peter as I need new bushing bolts all over in the correct diameter/length as well as the lower part of the triangle. To be honest I'm not very impressed at the moment........

I had some other 8 mm bushing bolts that I could cut and fit in order to continue riding but not a very elegant fix.

Here is a picture of the bushing bolt 4 mm too short and putting all load on only 1 side of the "fork":





Here is a picture of the bushing bolt being 4 mm too short and its quite easy to see the wear marks only on the outside part:



Here is a couple of pictures of the lower left "fork" and its clear to see that the carbon is already stating to be ripped apart on the outside part of the "fork", as a matter of fact there were lying small pieces of carbon in there when I took it apart:





Here is a couple of pictures of my not so elegant fix but it clearly illustrate how the bushing bolt should have been seated in the first place:

[Carbon_Dude]

Is the fix a new bushing bolt that you cut down to 8mm?  I'm not sure if I understand how you fixed the problem.

[karstenhorn]

Is the fix a new bushing bolt that you cut down to 8mm?  I'm not sure if I understand how you fixed the problem.

I had a couple of old bushing bolts in the correct diameter but they were too long so I cut them down to 21 mm length. The bushing bolts that came with my 036 are only 17 mm long meaning that all load is only on the outside part of the fork. Also, the bushing bolts that came with my frame were some 0.15 mm too small in diameter causing a lot of free play in the bushings thus adding to the flex issue. Not only does it destroy the fork quickly but i do also create a huge amount of flex in the triangle. After I did my emergency repair, I have reduced the flex significantly.

I must say that the quality of the frame I got from Peter sucks and I'm now seriously considering what to do next, If Peter accept the warranty and provide me with a new lower part of the triangle as well as new bushing bolts all around, I might keep the frame. Other vice I might bite the dust and buy a name brand frame 
 

[kaiser]

Faaaak I only just built up a CS-36 from Peter. I did notice the flex in the rear triangle if I push/pull from the top of the wheel but Im not sure what is right and what is not. For example with a 2.2 rear wheel, I can nearly touch the rubber against the triangle. However I can see most of the triangle flex and I have no "play" in any of the linkages and they look firm but now that you have found your bushing bolt problem Ill have a look at mine.

[kaiser]

I had a look at my bushings and not as bad as yours. Although at approx 17mm in length and 8mm in diameter, the bush is almost through and about a millimetre or 2 short of reaching the other side. So some of its end is holding the carbon part but not all of it. The total diameter that the bushing needs to go through is approx 20mm. I think a 21mm bushing would be to long. I tightened all the bushings and bolts for all the linkages and it feels I still have flex. It is a little better but not by much. I should upload a video to youtube but I need another pair of hands to help with the recording.

Can you keep us updated on what happens with Peter regarding new bushs, bolts and rear triangle. I to might need longer bushings to get it right.

[karstenhorn]

I had a look at my bushings and not as bad as yours. Although at approx 17mm in length and 8mm in diameter, the bush is almost through and about a millimetre or 2 short of reaching the other side. So some of its end is holding the carbon part but not all of it. The total diameter that the bushing needs to go through is approx 20mm. I think a 21mm bushing would be to long. I tightened all the bushings and bolts for all the linkages and it feels I still have flex. It is a little better but not by much. I should upload a video to youtube but I need another pair of hands to help with the recording.

Can you keep us updated on what happens with Peter regarding new bushs, bolts and rear triangle. I to might need longer bushings to get it right.

I guess that there could be slight variances in the width of the fork from frame to frame. My bushing bolt needs to be 21 mm in order to seat perfectly. My bushing inner diameter is 8 mm sharp but outside diameter of the bushing bolt was only 7.84 mm, giving a free play of more than 1 1/2 tenth of a mm witch is way too much. If your bushing bolt is too short you will force the 2 half's of the fork together putting a lot of strength on the carbon and causing the shims to "grind" on the inside of the fork - That's what happened to mine. Bear in mind that there is a lot of force involved in that particular joint.

[karstenhorn]

More than 2 weeks gone by and as of now but nothing but lame excuses from Peter To be absolutely honest, I do not see any of the support/responsibility from Peter that this site have highlighted - As a matter of fact that was the reason why I bought from Peter and not from any other vendor on Aliexpress.

Peter sold me a poorly manufactured product and so far no support to fix the issue


Karsten 

[Carbon_Dude]

What are you asking him to do for you?  What reasons has he given for not helping you?

[karstenhorn]

What are you asking him to do for you?  What reasons has he given for not helping you?

I'm kindly asking for new bushing bolts in the correct length and a new piece of the lower part of the chain stay - funny enough there was n reaction shortly after this..... Even after very well documented damage, they now want me to pay for the return of the damaged chain stay before they decide what to do. That mean that I will be without MTB for one month during the main riding season. I know that all you guys are praising this guy/company but from my perspective the service so far have been lousy

[Carbon_Dude]

I totally understand.  Personally, I think it comes down to what are your expectations.  I had high expectations for one of my local bike shops but ended up with terrible service, the owner lying to me about what he did to fix my bike, and what parts were replaced.  In that case, I lost all respect for that shop.  On the other hand, I've gotten good service from online bike stores in the US.  I know that ordering something from China is always somewhat of a risk.  If I have a problem, I expect I may need to pay shipping costs to something replaced.  I've had a few things from China replaced, half the time I paid shipping, and half the time they paid the shipping.  However, I remember that I didn't pay 4X more for the item, so I'm ahead whether I paid shipping or not.

I think you have a fair point kastenhorn, if they installed the wrong bolts in your frame, I'd think they need to send you replacements.  I think there is an expectation that the frame will at least be assembled correctly.  As for the wear on the frame is a result of the bolts being too short, then maybe they need to replace the frame as well.  Some companies would replace your entire frame, no questions asked, however those are usually the companies that charge 2X-4X for a carbon frame in the first place.  I know the Chinese vendors work on very thin margins so I'd expect their warranty may not be as good ask it would be on a $3,000 frame from my local bike shop.

[karstenhorn]

I know that I cannot expect the same quality as a S-Works frame and I know that I cannot expect the same service as if I spent 3000$. If that was the case I would have demanded a brand new frame right away. Here I'm kindly asking for 4 new correct sized Bushing bolts and a small minor part of the frame. Its now more than 14 days since I highlighted the issue but still no bolts on the way to me. The vendor that is being exposed here a lot, have had a few excuses why no time to handle my reasonable request but then I see him post about his painted frames here on the site. I mean, if you post here you must also have time to take care of issues with your customers......

My point is that the vendor have been praised here a lot due to the fact that he supposedly provide service and that was the sole reason why I bought from him in the first place, unfortunately I have yet to see any of that service

I have even told him that I was in market for 2 carbon wheel sets but he have not paid any attention to that and now that order will go to somebody else for sure. If I can't expect any service anyway, I might as well go for the best offer on eBay.

Karsten

[PeterXu]

I have to say that Karsten, you are a little unlucky.  We (and our factory) had several May Day holidays from April 30th through May 3rd, then we ( and factory ) went to Shanghai due to the International cycle show (May 6th through 9th). I passed your pictures and problem with frame to factory when I got first email from you, but no response from factory, what should I do ? I had to wait for response from our factory first and I told you even our factory wouldn't offer replacement, then I will, what you need to do is just be more patient. And I told you our factory need you to send the chainstay back.  Usually the warranty process is like this: issue happened - taking pictures and describing what problem is - we pass pictures and descibtions to factory - waiting response from factory and they will decide if they need customer to send the parts back or not - if yes, then sending replacement after checking out the returned parts and the issue was caused by quality itself.

Factory decides if they need customer to send back the warranty issue parts, not our company. Since factoy thinks that some guys may  get their bicycle crashed, and their frames, wheels and other parts may get cracked, even worse, but they tell us the problems were caused by our products' "low" quality.

So it depends, but we offer replacements under almost issues. Anyway, you should be patient, nobody wants this happened, Karsten.

And all our bolts sizes are same on all 036 FS 29er frames. I will send you 4 new ones.

[Jerryno]

@ PeterXu

The customer has business with you, not with the factory. If you set your business quality to be dependent on the factory, then you cannot control this and will be bad for your business.

You have $100 bigger margins than your cheaper competition. I suggest from this buy some frames to have for spare parts or when customer needs replacement. Also there are not that many things to check on a frame to see if it is good quality - you should check every frame and not send any that has flaws. You should know the product you sell well and you should know what to check on it. If you send a frame with short bolts it was your responsibility, not the factory.

If you only relay the problem to the factory, you are only a middleman, you have no extra costs (other than communication) from such customer service and ultimately you are not financially motivated to send good product.

I believe you provide the best communication experience, you probably get the better frames from the factory, but you only provide the same customer service as the factory when something goes wrong. For people in US, Europe, etc. such service is not enough and they are willing to pay more to have a better one.

[karstenhorn]

I have to say that Karsten, you are a little unlucky.  We (and our factory) had several May Day holidays from April 30th through May 3rd, then we ( and factory ) went to Shanghai due to the International cycle show (May 6th through 9th). I passed your pictures and problem with frame to factory when I got first email from you, but no response from factory, what should I do ? I had to wait for response from our factory first and I told you even our factory wouldn't offer replacement, then I will, what you need to do is just be more patient. And I told you our factory need you to send the chainstay back.  Usually the warranty process is like this: issue happened - taking pictures and describing what problem is - we pass pictures and descibtions to factory - waiting response from factory and they will decide if they need customer to send the parts back or not - if yes, then sending replacement after checking out the returned parts and the issue was caused by quality itself.

Factory decides if they need customer to send back the warranty issue parts, not our company. Since factoy thinks that some guys may  get their bicycle crashed, and their frames, wheels and other parts may get cracked, even worse, but they tell us the problems were caused by our products' "low" quality.

So it depends, but we offer replacements under almost issues. Anyway, you should be patient, nobody wants this happened, Karsten.

And all our bolts sizes are same on all 036 FS 29er frames. I will send you 4 new ones.

Honestly Peter, I did not buy the frame from the factory but you, whatever factory decides cannot fall back on me

Fact is the following came from you when I bought the frame, a frame assembled with bushing bolts about 3 mm too short and about 0.15 mm too narrow in diameter.

The new bolts you are sending should be around 20.5 mm in length and 7.95 to 7.97 mm in diameter - Please check that before sending them out !


Just to recap what happened, after only a few hundred km's of easy riding I was experiencing more and more play in the lower joint close to the rear axle and this is what I found:

Hear is a picture of the bushing bolt still sitting in the frame and it is very clear that its only supporting on the outside of the fork, making the upper part of the chain stay(the part that connects to the rear shock absorber) twist and rub the outer inside part of the fork:



Here is a picture of the bushing bolt itself where you can see the length of the bushing bolt and it is also VERY clear to see the, based on the rub mark, that all the force have been only onthe outside part of the bolt:



Here is a picture of the outside diameter of the bushing bolt clearly shoving around 7.84 mm. The bushing in the upper part is 8.02 mm giving more than 0.15 mm of free play witch is a LOT and contribute to the "loose" feeling of the rear end:

 

Here is a picture of the lower left inside part of the fork where it is very very clear to see cracks and carbon breaking up in big pieces - bear in mind that this is caused after only a couple of hundred km. The reason for the cracks and breaking up is due to the fact that the upper part is twisting inside the fork and the inside shim on the outside is grinding inside the carbon:



From my perspective you don't have to be an Einstein Engineer to analyse what happened and the fact that your "factory" want it back before decision whether warranty or not, I simply find ridiculous and must be with the sole purpose of hoping that I give up on the hassle ahead of me

Try to see it from my side, I spent a lot of money and time putting this bike together and most importantly, I'm in the middle of my main riding season and now you are requesting me to dismantle my frame and stuff should start to flow back and forth between China and Denmark taking months. If your store is a responsible one, you should ship me the correct bolts as well as a new painted lower part of the chain stay immediately and then I would ship the wrong bolts as well as the damaged chain stay part back to you.

Even the fact that I have to write numerous mails in order to argue for my rights makes me kind of annoyed and it clearly tells me what I'm up against  

Karsten

[carbonazza]

Karsten, we buy direct (well almost), as Carbon_dude said, their margin are thin, it is cheaper for us but it has risks.

I followed the same process described by Peter, with a crack that appeared at the back of the seat stay of my CS-041.
Sent pictures, cut the part and sent it back. Wait. Then wait patiently. And received a new frame.
So for me Peter and his factory stand behind their product.
Just the "buy direct" make it more complicated and takes weeks.

At the same time I went to an even worse hassle for a warranty repair of my Lefty by Cannondale.

These experiences made me realise I needed two frames/fork if I want to ride without interruption.
Switching the parts between them if needed.