Design flaw/quality issue IP-036

[PeterXu]

@ PeterXu

The customer has business with you, not with the factory. If you set your business quality to be dependent on the factory, then you cannot control this and will be bad for your business.

You have $100 bigger margins than your cheaper competition. I suggest from this buy some frames to have for spare parts or when customer needs replacement. Also there are not that many things to check on a frame to see if it is good quality - you should check every frame and not send any that has flaws. You should know the product you sell well and you should know what to check on it. If you send a frame with short bolts it was your responsibility, not the factory.

If you only relay the problem to the factory, you are only a middleman, you have no extra costs (other than communication) from such customer service and ultimately you are not financially motivated to send good product.

I believe you provide the best communication experience, you probably get the better frames from the factory, but you only provide the same customer service as the factory when something goes wrong. For people in US, Europe, etc. such service is not enough and they are willing to pay more to have a better one.

Thanks for your suggestion, Jerry. I am running business, I know I need to offer best service. And I had personally promised him that I would offer him replacement chainstay for sure since he bought the frame from me, not from our factory, but I need response from our factory as well.  And as I said, we had holidays and then were focused on cycle show for past few days, I am so sorry we can not make everyone happy in any time with our service, if you got problem with your frame or rims during Chinese New Year holiday, you might get crazy

And we pay more than other competitors on better quality frames, so I don't have extra $100 margin more than those competitors, and you guys get what you pay for, but you should know our products are not big brands, and even big brands, their products sometimes have these issues also, but they have more than 100% margin so that they can offer replacement immediately. 

[karstenhorn]

Karsten, we buy direct (well almost), as Carbon_dude said, their margin are thin, it is cheaper for us but it has risks.

I followed the same process described by Peter, with a crack that appeared at the back of the seat stay of my CS-041.
Sent pictures, cut the part and sent it back. Wait. Then wait patiently. And received a new frame.
So for me Peter and his factory stand behind their product.
Just the "buy direct" make it more complicated and takes weeks.

At the same time I went to an even worse hassle for a warranty repair of my Lefty by Cannondale.

These experiences made me realise I needed two frames/fork if I want to ride without interruption.
Switching the parts between them if needed.

I fully understand that we are not up against a known brand, however I could have bought my IP-036 100$ + free shipping(I paid another 80$ for shipping) cheaper from Aliexpress directly knowing that I was 100% on my own in case of issues. I decided to buy from Peter as I could read here that there was good service on his products. what I have seen so far is not good service - Its not about replacing a frame but only a minor part of it + 4 bolts, My frame is literately brand new and defective out the door. My issue is very well documented and still they want me to send all parts back first before they will decide anything - When I bought my frame I was not advised to buy 2 up front due to the fact that quality is so bad that it will fail sooner or later

For Peter its not if you get issues with the products you sell its a matter of when - This situation could have been handled differently from Peter when he got my first mail, he could have said "I'm sorry" and shipped me the new parts right away. This arguing back is not good for neither me nor his future business and in the end I will end up with the parts or Peter will end up with some bad reputation.

As a matter of fact I have a mail from Peter sent yesterday that he would ship a new chain stay + bushing bolts right away and I thought all was good - 10 min later I receive another mail from Peter saying now stating that I have to return the defective parts first due to the claim from the "factory" Hell, I did not buy from factory but from Peter !!

Again, we are talking minor parts and not a whole frame.........

Karsten

[karstenhorn]

@ PeterXu

The customer has business with you, not with the factory. If you set your business quality to be dependent on the factory, then you cannot control this and will be bad for your business.

You have $100 bigger margins than your cheaper competition. I suggest from this buy some frames to have for spare parts or when customer needs replacement. Also there are not that many things to check on a frame to see if it is good quality - you should check every frame and not send any that has flaws. You should know the product you sell well and you should know what to check on it. If you send a frame with short bolts it was your responsibility, not the factory.

If you only relay the problem to the factory, you are only a middleman, you have no extra costs (other than communication) from such customer service and ultimately you are not financially motivated to send good product.

I believe you provide the best communication experience, you probably get the better frames from the factory, but you only provide the same customer service as the factory when something goes wrong. For people in US, Europe, etc. such service is not enough and they are willing to pay more to have a better one.

Thanks for your suggestion, Jerry. I am running business, I know I need to offer best service. And I had personally promised him that I would offer him replacement chainstay for sure since he bought the frame from me, not from our factory, but I need response from our factory as well.  And as I said, we had holidays and then were focused on cycle show for past few days, I am so sorry we can not make everyone happy in any time with our service, if you got problem with your frame or rims during Chinese New Year holiday, you might get crazy

And we pay more than other competitors on better quality frames, so I don't have extra $100 margin more than those competitors, and you guys get what you pay for, but you should know our products are not big brands, and even big brands, their products sometimes have these issues also, but they have more than 100% margin so that they can offer replacement immediately.

Quite funny that you just edited this post from initially stating that you offered me a free new chain stay to removed it again - What was the reason for that ?

[bxcc]

Here is an option. What if Karstenhorn buys the replacement parts for a small fee and waits for them to arrive. Once they arrive, he then sends the faulty parts back to Peter. While Peter sorts the mess out with the factory, Karstenhorn can be riding his bike. Once the situation is resolved, Peter can then refund the money for the parts purchase. Or send some replacements and karstenhorn would have a spare in case something happens in the future. There will still be some down time until the replacements arrive but no one will be out any significant money and Karstenhorn will be riding sooner. I know it's not the best solution but there is minimal risk on both ends. If the factory can't replace them, at least the bike is up and running and Karstenhorn isn't out $750 or more on an unusable frame.

[karstenhorn]

Here is an option. What if Karstenhorn buys the replacement parts for a small fee and waits for them to arrive. Once they arrive, he then sends the faulty parts back to Peter. While Peter sorts the mess out with the factory, Karstenhorn can be riding his bike. Once the situation is resolved, Peter can then refund the money for the parts purchase. Or send some replacements and karstenhorn would have a spare in case something happens in the future. There will still be some down time until the replacements arrive but no one will be out any significant money and Karstenhorn will be riding sooner. I know it's not the best solution but there is minimal risk on both ends. If the factory can't replace them, at least the bike is up and running and Karstenhorn isn't out $750 or more on an unusable frame.

For a start I find it wrong that I have to pay for something that I truly believe should be a no-nonsense task. If Peter wants a deposit prior to shipping of the new parts that clearly are defective/wrong, fine by me but hello - Is that fair ?

Karsten
 

[bxcc]

For a start I find it wrong that I have to pay for something that I truly believe should be a no-nonsense task. If Peter wants a deposit prior to shipping of the new parts that clearly are defective/wrong, fine by me but hello - Is that fair ?

Karsten

I'm not saying I would be super excited about this option either, just that for me it would be acceptable. Well that depends on the cost of the chainstay. I would hope that it would be well under $100 and that would be acceptable to me to get it up and running in a timely fashion. I've had two Santa Cruz frames break. They have great customer service and took care of me quickly. But I still had to send the frame back on my dime before they would send a new one. Thankfully the second time I was able to cut the BB area out and send in just the BB shell with the serial number on it. But back on track, I do agree that for something like this, it should have went smoother.

[gangels]

Bought a 057 from xmcarbon this winter and built it up this spring. 4 rides in a crack appeared in the center of the top tube.

Some correspondence and exchange of pictures with Peter and he is sending out a new frame. You would be hard pressed to get customer service like that from any American company. I had friends wait 6 months to replace their carbon frames from US companies. Disappointed the crack appeared but Peter was quick to rectify.

[RS VR6]

Bought a 057 from xmcarbon this winter and built it up this spring. 4 rides in a crack appeared in the center of the top tube.

Some correspondence and exchange of pictures with Peter and he is sending out a new frame. You would be hard pressed to get customer service like that from any American company. I had friends wait 6 months to replace their carbon frames from US companies. Disappointed the crack appeared but Peter was quick to rectify.

For real? Come on now. I had a paint crack on the top tube of my Cervelo S2. I had a new frame within two weeks.

[JohnSpeed]

For real? Come on now. I had a paint crack on the top tube of my Cervelo S2. I had a new frame within two weeks.

Not sure what you mean by "for real?".. are you implying that it's unreasonable to say that you wouldn't get that kind of service from an American company? If so, I agree that is a bit of a generalization, but in my experience, its pretty accurate.  Of course not all companies,  mainly the larger ones. Many of them even outsource warranty services. Perhaps the more accurate statement would be don't assume bc you buy from a name brand that warranty service will be superior.

[RS VR6]

I'm saying that is a pretty big exaggeration.

Friend of mine had some paint chip on the dropout of his Specialized Roubaix. Bike shop emailed the pics to Specialized...they sent him a new frame. I find that it's more uncommon for big brand to give bad customer service.

[JohnSpeed]

I'm saying that is a pretty big exaggeration.

Friend of mine had some paint chip on the dropout of his Specialized Roubaix. Bike shop emailed the pics to Specialized...they sent him a new frame. I find that it's more uncommon for big brand to give bad customer service.

Yeah , fair point but I have seen it go both ways. I think that's the advantages of a bike shop.. dealing with Specialized yourself would be far less effective I bet. But yeah.. your point stands.

[two-one]

So, has anyone got an IP-036 with longer bolts yet? I've got a FM036 (same frame) with short bolts, and I would like to improve the stiffness by replacing the 17x7.85mm bolts by some 19x8mm ones.

Any suggestions?

[pyre]

I pulled mine and have the same problem as karstenhorn.  Only one side of the bolt has visible contact with bearing/pivot. Initially I thought the noises and flexing were due to a lack of spacers on either side of the bearings, but on closer inspection its the pivot bolt only contacting one side. 

Karstenhorn, where did you get those longer "sex bolts"?  I have searched the internet and hardware supply stores and have come up empty handed.   

[karstenhorn]

So, has anyone got an IP-036 with longer bolts yet? I've got a FM036 (same frame) with short bolts, and I would like to improve the stiffness by replacing the 17x7.85mm bolts by some 19x8mm ones.

Any suggestions?

I do have new bolts under way from Peter(as well as a new chainstay) but I do need longer bolts than 19 mm. The chainstay I have right now would need 20.5 mm bolts in order to sit perfectly. What I did was to get some other bolts originally intended for a rear shock installation and I shortened them in order to fit my chainstay. My best guess is that there is a difference in the overall thickness of the lower rear fork on the 036 chainstay and only one size of bolts.....

Karsten

[two-one]

I do have new bolts under way from Peter(as well as a new chainstay) but I do need longer bolts than 19 mm. The chainstay I have right now would need 20.5 mm bolts in order to sit perfectly. What I did was to get some other bolts originally intended for a rear shock installation and I shortened them in order to fit my chainstay. My best guess is that there is a difference in the overall thickness of the lower rear fork on the 036 chainstay and only one size of bolts.....

Karsten

I'm very curious about your new bolts, don't forget to measure them before you mount hem