New Avenger R8-RS

[Mariuszuzd]

It was one of the quickest cable routing in the history, honestly. It's quite easy, as the stem and the bar are two elements. You can firstly go through the first element, and then through the handlebar. The channel from the rear brake is also a standard one, the frameset are very well made, no sharp edges, all is great so I can say that without a watch it took me around 90 minutes to assembly the whole bike. I was rather not in a rush Have a look on the manual I had attached, it's really helpful.

[giorgiobuccio]

I have just finished building the bike, but unfortunately I think I will sell it immediately.

The problem is toe overlap: the front wheel touches my shoe when I turn the handlebar a lot at low speed.

For reference, I am 186 cm tall, the frame is size 56, I use EU size 46 shoes and 172.5 mm cranks.

I already have some toe overlap on my Voicevelo Echo, and it is already annoying there, but on this bike it is even worse. The front wheel is simply too close to the pedals / shoes

This is a problem in real-life situations: starting from a junction, turning slowly, riding near pedestrians, crossing narrow bridges, or making a tight U-turn. I do not want to ride a bike while always worrying that the front wheel may touch my shoe.

In a race, this probably would not happen, because corners are taken at higher speed and you do not turn the handlebar so much. But even so, this problem reduces my confidence in the bike.

I hope frame manufacturers will consider this problem more carefully. Many modern aero/race bikes are becoming shorter and shorter at the front. This may make the bike feel more reactive, but for riders with bigger shoes, normal crank length and wider tyres, toe overlap can become a real problem.

Unfortunately, this frame is not suitable for me  :'(.

I have learned the lesson: from now on, I will not buy any road bike with a front-center below 600 mm.

For reference, my Voicevelo Echo has a front-center of 598 mm, and toe overlap is already annoying.
The Avenger R8-RS size 56 has a front-center of 591.6 mm, so the problem is clearly worse.

I also noticed that some modern aero/race frames go even below 590 mm in front-center. In my opinion, this is a real problem for many riders.

Even changing from 172.5 mm cranks to 170 mm cranks would only give about 2.5 mm more clearance, so with these very short front-center geometries the problem would still remain.

I think frame manufacturers should consider this more carefully. A bike can be reactive, but it also has to be safe and easy to handle in real-life low-speed situations

[glitch]

At your height you should be on a 58 frame.

[crazyravr]

At your height you should be on a 58 frame.

False.

[glitch]

False.

About as much false as my statement. Sure sizing is more than just how tall a person is, but I know what I would get and for someone significantly taller who experiences toe overlap, based on the limited info available, a size 56 seems small, in particular if you try to have a "modern" fit

[Bonus79]

I have just finished building the bike, but unfortunately I think I will sell it immediately.

The problem is toe overlap: the front wheel touches my shoe when I turn the handlebar a lot at low speed.

For reference, I am 186 cm tall, the frame is size 56, I use EU size 46 shoes and 172.5 mm cranks.

I already have some toe overlap on my Voicevelo Echo, and it is already annoying there, but on this bike it is even worse. The front wheel is simply too close to the pedals / shoes

This is a problem in real-life situations: starting from a junction, turning slowly, riding near pedestrians, crossing narrow bridges, or making a tight U-turn. I do not want to ride a bike while always worrying that the front wheel may touch my shoe.

In a race, this probably would not happen, because corners are taken at higher speed and you do not turn the handlebar so much. But even so, this problem reduces my confidence in the bike.

I hope frame manufacturers will consider this problem more carefully. Many modern aero/race bikes are becoming shorter and shorter at the front. This may make the bike feel more reactive, but for riders with bigger shoes, normal crank length and wider tyres, toe overlap can become a real problem.

Unfortunately, this frame is not suitable for me  :'(.

I have learned the lesson: from now on, I will not buy any road bike with a front-center below 600 mm.

For reference, my Voicevelo Echo has a front-center of 598 mm, and toe overlap is already annoying.
The Avenger R8-RS size 56 has a front-center of 591.6 mm, so the problem is clearly worse.

I also noticed that some modern aero/race frames go even below 590 mm in front-center. In my opinion, this is a real problem for many riders.

Even changing from 172.5 mm cranks to 170 mm cranks would only give about 2.5 mm more clearance, so with these very short front-center geometries the problem would still remain.

I think frame manufacturers should consider this more carefully. A bike can be reactive, but it also has to be safe and easy to handle in real-life low-speed situations

Forgive me, I don't mean to sound rude, but since you had this issue with the Voicevelo Echo frame, why did you choose an Avenger R8 in size 56, which has practically the same geometry?

Regarding the geometry, the angles on both frames aren't "extreme" or "modern" at all, but rather classic; theoretically, then, you would face this same problem with any frame featuring a 73° head tube angle... to get around it, you should look for frames with a head tube angle of less than 73° (or particularly long reach compared to traditional sizes).

Just out of curiosity: what prompted you to switch from the Voicevelo Echo to the Avenger R8?

[Pehem]

Just for others, the short manual how to assemble the handlebar. The manual is also attached to my previous post, but I added it here one more time. Regarding the geometry, the most important is that is not correct! You should reduce 3 cm from the stack, it's lower! I can show you the numbers later. That is why I have 8 spacers so 4 cm instead of 2 spacers as I assumed! Some quick update before some final review. Bike is really great, I was on the race in the mountains, Tatra Road Race, ~82 km, 2300 up, no issues. Conditions so the weather was really terrible, so wind and rain, and I felt very confident on it.

I don't know what you meant with the picture of the steering stopper but I tried to remove it and it's much better. I also degreased the fork and used carbon paste to prevent potential stem slippage. After one ride, the steering never felt as good as it is now. Thank you. I don't know if the steering limiter was interfering somehow with the cable port grommet, I would have preferred keeping it but nevermind.

[Mariuszuzd]

I'm 187 cm, I have 58 size, no issues with the above mentioned matter. I have 45 size of the shoe. I will check it carefully when I come back from my vacation.

[kubackje]

I have just finished building the bike, but unfortunately I think I will sell it immediately.

The problem is toe overlap: the front wheel touches my shoe when I turn the handlebar a lot at low speed.

For reference, I am 186 cm tall, the frame is size 56, I use EU size 46 shoes and 172.5 mm cranks.

I already have some toe overlap on my Voicevelo Echo, and it is already annoying there, but on this bike it is even worse. The front wheel is simply too close to the pedals / shoes

This is a problem in real-life situations: starting from a junction, turning slowly, riding near pedestrians, crossing narrow bridges, or making a tight U-turn. I do not want to ride a bike while always worrying that the front wheel may touch my shoe.

In a race, this probably would not happen, because corners are taken at higher speed and you do not turn the handlebar so much. But even so, this problem reduces my confidence in the bike.

I hope frame manufacturers will consider this problem more carefully. Many modern aero/race bikes are becoming shorter and shorter at the front. This may make the bike feel more reactive, but for riders with bigger shoes, normal crank length and wider tyres, toe overlap can become a real problem.

Unfortunately, this frame is not suitable for me  :'(.

I have learned the lesson: from now on, I will not buy any road bike with a front-center below 600 mm.

For reference, my Voicevelo Echo has a front-center of 598 mm, and toe overlap is already annoying.
The Avenger R8-RS size 56 has a front-center of 591.6 mm, so the problem is clearly worse.

I also noticed that some modern aero/race frames go even below 590 mm in front-center. In my opinion, this is a real problem for many riders.

Even changing from 172.5 mm cranks to 170 mm cranks would only give about 2.5 mm more clearance, so with these very short front-center geometries the problem would still remain.

I think frame manufacturers should consider this more carefully. A bike can be reactive, but it also has to be safe and easy to handle in real-life low-speed situations

That's a bummer, but to be honest there is NOTHING modern in terms of geometry in this frame. Modern aero frames have long front center, so something you are looking for. In example ridley Noah fast or Eddy merckx 525r

[massarob]

Arrived and installed, I just need a better T47 BB as this is just to finish it.
So far my only concern is about headset preloading as, even without using it yet, it seems a little tricky to settle. I added also the 2 metal rings between the C ring and the 1st headset cover (as shown on their IG channel).
That's also the reason I did not put the "aero" stem cover yet but an above spacer and a top cap.
Hose routing was relatively easy, just the last hole on the handlebar/behind the levers is tightly angled.
The look is nice and aggressive, the weight is not bad even with relatively heavy wheels and Magene Pedals is 7.5 Kg in size 52.
On the same target price, I would have bought the new Cube Agree (€3300 with full Ultegra), but it was released just few days ago.

[Ghandy]

Arrived and installed, I just need a better T47 BB as this is just to finish it.
So far my only concern is about headset preloading as, even without using it yet, it seems a little tricky to settle. I added also the 2 metal rings between the C ring and the 1st headset cover (as shown on their IG channel).
That's also the reason I did not put the "aero" stem cover yet but an above spacer and a top cap.
Hose routing was relatively easy, just the last hole on the handlebar/behind the levers is tightly angled.
The look is nice and aggressive, the weight is not bad even with relatively heavy wheels and Magene Pedals is 7.5 Kg in size 52.
On the same target price, I would have bought the new Cube Agree (€3300 with full Ultegra), but it was released just few days ago.

Nice build, very cool! If you change your mind and buy the cube consider me interested in the frame!

[massarob]

small update after a few easy "installation" rides: all is fine, vertical rigidity is as good/on par with my SL8, on the rolling sections it feels more like an "old" Venge. Not yet tested on climbs but it's not its speciality with this weight.
I just purchased a Wheeltop 1x goupset to convert this bike to 1x, 48 or 50 chainring and 11-46 for the cassette. 

[giorgiobuccio]

Hi, I am replying here to a few questions that were asked in different posts.

About toe overlap

To be honest, front-center was never a number I used to check carefully.
I have been riding bikes for almost 30 years, usually in size 56/57, and I never really had this kind of problem before. The first time it appeared was with my Voicevelo Echo, where toe overlap is already annoying, but I simply did not think enough about it before buying the R8-RS.

Size 56 still makes sense for a racing setup: compact geometry, shorter bike, lower weight, more reactive handling, etc. But I did not pay enough attention to the front-center measurement.
Buying the R8-RS in size 56 was probably my mistake.

I want to be clear: I am not saying this is a bad bike.
I am not saying the geometry is wrong for everyone.
I am only saying that, for my setup, the front-center is too short and toe overlap is a problem.
This is not only about this frame. Many modern aero/race bikes have the same issue. For example, with a Cervélo S5 I would probably have the same problem.
So my post was more a personal frustration than a criticism of the R8-RS quality.
I just hope frame manufacturers will consider this problem more carefully. Short and reactive bikes are nice, but they also have to work in real-life low-speed situations.
Otherwise, some riders may choose the wrong size, or may have to sell the bike and choose another brand.


Comparison with other bikes and some thoughts

Before selling the R8-RS, I will still give it a proper test ride. I like the look of the frame, it feels light, and maybe even lighter than the Voicevelo Echo, although I may be wrong. My first feeling on the bike was very bad, but the mechanic had not replicated my fit measurements correctly, so I want to set it up properly and try again.

I usually like having two bikes, so I always have one ready to ride. Ideally, maybe two bikes from the same brand would make more sense, but I also like trying new frames. The R8-RS was meant to replace my Velobuild VB-R-368.

The Velobuild had the opposite problem: no toe overlap at all, very stable, and once launched on flat roads it had a very strong power-transfer feeling. But it did not feel great for accelerations, re-accelerations, and corners. It felt a bit heavy and slow to handle. Maybe this was also because I was used to a very different geometry, and because the handlebar felt too wide and too flexible for my taste.

About the Voicevelo Echo, overall I am happy with it. It was my main bike this year, and I also won two races with it. I was unlucky with my frame because after a few months it started making annoying noises around the seatpost area. Probably the seat tube tolerance was a bit too large. I know this can happen even with expensive Western frames. Normal carbon paste did not solve it, but a mechanic solved it using threadlocker and something similar to epoxy resin around the seatpost area.

Another thing about the Voicevelo is the original handlebar. It is extremely stiff. This gives a very direct and solid feeling, which is great, but on rough roads it is very harsh on the wrists. In the few kilometres I tried the R8-RS, the comfort over road vibration felt much better.

For now, I will set up the R8-RS correctly, ride it properly, and see if I can live with it. If not, I will sell it.

Lesson learned: from now on, front-center is one of the first geometry numbers I will check.

With hindsight, maybe size 58 would have been the better choice. It would have given more front-center, less toe overlap, and probably a cleaner cockpit setup. But of course it would also be a bigger and longer bike, and I am not sure I would have liked the handling. Size 56/57 has always been my usual size.