Chinertown
Other Resources => Component Deals & Selection => Topic started by: StiffWeenies on December 20, 2021, 12:14:09 PM
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Hey all, just wanted to share that L-TWOO has released their RX 2x12 road groupset.
I'm not sure if they've addressed the main criticisms surrounding their R9 2x11 road groupset (bad hoods, bad shifter clamp, etc.) but hey, an extra cog never hurt anyone!
Linked here are their two explainer videos detailing the shifters and derailleurs:
youtube.com/watch?v=epC3W9dV5bc
youtube.com/watch?v=I3B0vKva52k
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I'll be interested to see what gets announced by either them or others at the Shanghai Bike Show in May. Pretty sure we'll see commercial availability of wireless electronic MTB drivetrains announced by a couple of brands. Maybe 2023 for road.
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I'll be interested to see what gets announced by either them or others at the Shanghai Bike Show in May. Pretty sure we'll see commercial availability of wireless electronic MTB drivetrains announced by a couple of brands. Maybe 2023 for road.
Off brand wireless shifting and dropper posts sound great, given the insane prices SRAM is charging. Almost $900 for a seatpost?! GTFOH.
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I'll be interested to see what gets announced by either them or others at the Shanghai Bike Show in May. Pretty sure we'll see commercial availability of wireless electronic MTB drivetrains announced by a couple of brands. Maybe 2023 for road.
I'm also interested to see. Some company (otherwise unknown for shifting-stuff I think) had a wireless MTB groupset prototype on last years show, but shifting quality wasn't the best, and the price wasn't that much lower than a GX AXS iirc.
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I'll be interested to see what gets announced by either them or others at the Shanghai Bike Show in May. Pretty sure we'll see commercial availability of wireless electronic MTB drivetrains announced by a couple of brands. Maybe 2023 for road.
According to Onirii (https://tieba.baidu.com/p/7660973434?pn=1), Sensah will release a groupset with electronic shifting and hydraulic braking in 2022.
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I'm sure that Chinese wireless electronic drivetrains will quickly be nearly as good Shimano & SRAM at a fraction of the price. The problem I see is road disc ... There's no evidence they're anywhere close. They'd be wise to concentrate on decent lever feel and reservoir, and make them work with Shimano or SRAM or magura calipers. Not an issue with Road Rim or MTB though.
If they were smart they'd get JuinTech or TRP to design the disc side of things. But I doubt it'll happen.
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do we have more news aout this new sensah groupset?
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Really interested in seeing if anything electronic or (road) hydraulic comes out of Shanghai this year.
I used to travel to China for work (not related) at least once a year, pre-pandemic, and kept hoping to squeeze in the bike show.
I feel that we are finally getting to a critical mass of Chinese brand that can hold their own internationally, but just need to build better awareness and branding
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In a comment on this Bili video, Sensah themselves have confirmed that hydraulic braking will come in 2022. (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1jh41147Wk)
I imagine hydraulic braking will be paired with their existing mechanical groupsets for the time being. Electronic shifting still feels rather far away imo and there is no guarantee of great implementation such as the absolute dud that was FSA's K-Force WE groupset. In any case, expect to hear more news in May at the upcoming bike show.
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Here is a rather revealing interview with a Sensah rep conducted at last year's bike show (https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv11159910)
Electronic shifting should arrive in rudimentary form sometime in 2023 and will take until 2026 at the latest to properly mature. The problem with hydraulic braking right now is that the factories are still preoccupied with fulfilling export orders for big name brands and there isn't enough capacity to do a run for Sensah. They're also working on a carbon crankset that is optimised for improved FD shifting performance. Exciting stuff!
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Here is a rather revealing interview with a Sensah rep conducted at last year's bike show (https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv11159910)
Electronic shifting should arrive in rudimentary form sometime in 2023 and will take until 2026 at the latest to properly mature. The problem with hydraulic braking right now is that the factories are still preoccupied with fulfilling export orders for big name brands and there isn't enough capacity to do a run for Sensah. They're also working on a carbon crankset that is optimised for improved FD shifting performance. Exciting stuff!
Thanks for the info. Keep it coming@
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Here is a rather revealing interview with a Sensah rep conducted at last year's bike show (https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv11159910)
Electronic shifting should arrive in rudimentary form sometime in 2023 and will take until 2026 at the latest to properly mature. The problem with hydraulic braking right now is that the factories are still preoccupied with fulfilling export orders for big name brands and there isn't enough capacity to do a run for Sensah. They're also working on a carbon crankset that is optimised for improved FD shifting performance. Exciting stuff!
I think others in China will easily beat Sensah to the punch with both MTB and Road electronic. I hope to be wrong, but Road electronic with hydraulic disc may be a shit show for a while if you can't swap in one of the usual suspects' calipers.
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I think others in China will easily beat Sensah to the punch with both MTB and Road electronic. I hope to be wrong, but Road electronic with hydraulic disc may be a shit show for a while if you can't swap in one of the usual suspects' calipers.
Yes. Sensah groupsets aren't very good to begin with. The general quality and performance of the Empire Pro is around the level of Tiagra 4700 and 105 5800, let alone 105 R7000. Electronic shifting and hydraulic braking will require a lot of R&D and investment that I don't think Sensah is willing or able to commit. And seeing prior attempts at hydraulic braking like Zoom's HB-875 doesn't inspire confidence to say the least.
Caliper compatibility shouldn't be an issue though. IIRC pretty much every mineral oil caliper out there excluding SRAM is interchangeable. What can't be swapped out however are the master cylinders in the levers.
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The lever / master cylinder / hose connection is what concerns me ... If it's good and reliable then likely little problem using a third party caliper, as you say. But if it's poor or finicky, and I expect the first attempts to be really poor, then what's the point? Could be totally wrong and some of them knock it out of the park on the first try ... We'll see. Either way I'll be quite happy to leave behind €1500-5000 groupsets.
Re: Sensah I've no idea what their funding situation is. But their strategy so far has clearly been stack them high and sell them cheap. There's definitely money behind a couple of other Chinese companies working on electronic.
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The lever / master cylinder / hose connection is what concerns me ... If it's good and reliable then likely little problem using a third party caliper, as you say. But if it's poor or finicky, and I expect the first attempts to be really poor, then what's the point? Could be totally wrong and some of them knock it out of the park on the first try ... We'll see. Either way I'll be quite happy to leave behind €1500-5000 groupsets.
Re: Sensah I've no idea what their funding situation is. But their strategy so far has clearly been stack them high and sell them cheap. There's definitely money behind a couple of other Chinese companies working on electronic.
Indeed. I have far greater confidence in Wheel Top than Sensah or L-TWOO. Their 2x10 prototype electronic groupset from 2016 was pretty promising. (https://tiebac.baidu.com/p/4529424117?pn=1)
(https://i.imgur.com/Br5NOek.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kb1kVfg.jpg)
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Indeed. I have far greater confidence in Wheel Top than Sensah or L-TWOO. Their 2x10 prototype electronic groupset from 2016 was pretty promising. (https://tiebac.baidu.com/p/4529424117?pn=1)
Yes, though they've been in stealth mode for a disconcertingly long time ...
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Some interesting developments in the disc brake and hydraulic lever space. Riderever is a component brand owned by Jagwire focused on developing their own disc brakes aimed at the MTB market with some interesting exceptions.
The Riderever Triva (https://www.riderever.com/product/5/17/28) is a hydraulic lever meant for time trial bikes that is designed around the SW-R9150 Di2 climbing switch. This implementation is not unlike the TRP Hylex RS (https://trpcycling.com/product/hylex-rs/) hydraulic road lever and HD-T910 (https://trpcycling.com/product/hd-t910/) hydraulic TT lever both of which have provisions for mounting either a SW-R600 (https://trpcycling.com/product/hylex-di2-adapter-kit/) Di2 climbing switch or an eTap Blip (https://trpcycling.com/product/trp-hylex-blip-adapters/).
What does this all mean? Well it means that the proliferation of satellite shifting buttons like the newly released eTap AXS Blips, 12 speed SW-RS801 and 11 to 12 speed carryover SW-R9150 has made hydraulic levers more viable than ever. All any potential manufacturer of electronic groupsets has to do is make a compatible satellite shifting button that can be incorporated into the design of an existing lever from Riderever or TRP. Why throw resources at developing an entirely new hydraulic lever when you can just use a perfectly good existing design?
Riderever also has the very nice looking Attack-S (https://www.riderever.com/product/5/10/13) hydraulic and MCX-2 (https://www.riderever.com/product/5/13/15) mechanical flat mount callipers as well as the seriously cool Aero-A (https://www.riderever.com/archive/download/seo/Riderever_catalog_2021_compressed.pdf) aero rim brake. I just hope that they eventually make their own hydraulic road lever with satellite shifter integration and also a flat mount version of their 4 piston Attack-XR post mount calliper.
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Here's a new video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ju411z7mk) showing the Wheel Top 1x12 wireless electronic MTB groupset in action. Rumors are pointing to Wheel Top revealing their road groupset this year.
And L-TWOO just dropped the companion app (https://tiebac.baidu.com/p/7766691498) for their upcoming 1x wireless electromechanical MTB shifter. Not that exciting since it's just another Archer D1x (https://archercomponents.com/collections/shifters-and-remotes/products/d1x-trail-with-gravel-dbr)/Cell NXS (https://cell-cycling.com/product/road-group/)/XShifter-style implementation.
News on Sensah's electronic groupset and hydraulic brakes will come "after the Shanghai bike show" according to the comments section on this video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1BY41137fj)
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Cautiously optimistic about Sensah's hydraulic levers. Expecting first run to have some issues, but Sensah has been good about fixing and replacing their mistakes.
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Coming straight from the horse's mouth! (https://tiebac.baidu.com/p/7771474955)
(https://i.imgur.com/hfOxlZg.jpg)
CONFIRMED:
carbon brifters for SRX Pro
OSPW for SRX Pro, ARX and XRX
hydraulic braking (https://www.qixin.com/patents/434e3230323032313433363537312e37/54) (油刹)
electronic shifting (电变)
(https://i.imgur.com/tjHgQUT.jpg)
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Here's a new video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ju411z7mk) showing the Wheel Top 1x12 wireless electronic MTB groupset in action. Rumors are pointing to Wheel Top revealing their road groupset this year.
Seems to be available now.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004029115107.html
But more than 30% more expensive than a GX AXS.
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Seems to be available now.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004029115107.html
But more than 30% more expensive than a GX AXS.
Woah, Ali price is so much higher than Taobao...
Not yet officially listed for sale in China but the rumored price is apparently 2.3K RMB (http://c.tieba.baidu.com/p/7776278295). There was also a 1.9K RMB (http://c.tieba.baidu.com/p/7768032838) figure floating around but I think that's a bit unrealistic.
They're still working on improving the batteries and the official launch is still a month away to coincide with the now postponed/cancelled May bike show. However with the current situation I wouldn't be surprised if Wheel Top and Sensah delay their new product launches.
EDIT: 2.3K RMB MSRP confirmed
(https://i.imgur.com/FWcgfBj.jpg)
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Seems to be available now.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004029115107.html
But more than 30% more expensive than a GX AXS.
Can't see the point in releasing such an expensive option tbh, as you said axs GX can be got for sub 400euro now, we buy Chinese stuff for the value proposition and this has none
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Here's a new video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ju411z7mk) showing the Wheel Top 1x12 wireless electronic MTB groupset in action. Rumors are pointing to Wheel Top revealing their road groupset this year.
And L-TWOO just dropped the companion app (https://tiebac.baidu.com/p/7766691498) for their upcoming 1x wireless electromechanical MTB shifter. Not that exciting since it's just another Archer D1x (https://archercomponents.com/collections/shifters-and-remotes/products/d1x-trail-with-gravel-dbr)/Cell NXS (https://cell-cycling.com/product/road-group/)/XShifter-style implementation.
News on Sensah's electronic groupset and hydraulic brakes will come "after the Shanghai bike show" according to the comments section on this video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1BY41137fj)
can't believe I missed this teaser of the Wheel Top road groupset (https://www.chn-bikes.com/archives/29000495.html)
(https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/chnbikes/imgs/c/5/c54de6ef.png)
(https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/chnbikes/imgs/a/3/a3190b5f.png)
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any update on the road electronic version?
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Wheel Top just dropped this 46 minute long video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1KF41177Vr) explaining their MTB groupset and are currently recruiting beta testers (https://t.bilibili.com/657066752908197905) for their road groupset.
I'll briefly summarise some of the more interesting points:
Road groupset beta testers are asked to prepare bikes with "11 speeds or more," meaning that the road groupset will support both 11 and 12 speeds like the MTB.
The MTB groupset will support 11 and 12 speed cassettes from SRAM and Shimano via software presets controlled on the companion app.
The MTB groupsets you saw listed for sale earlier this year were actually pre-production units offloaded by beta testers.
Wheel Top's road brifters will work with the MTB rear derailleur for gravel mullet setups.
The MTB rear derailleur uses an 800mAh battery (47.5g) with a slimmer 400mAh optional battery coming in the future. For reference, the SRAM battery is 300mAh and weighs 25g.
They'll release a downhill version of the MTB rear derailleur with a shorter cage (75mm vs 93mm).
There'll be a decked out version of the MTB rear derailleur with black and gold pulleys (unclear if OSPW or not).
The MTB derailleur can shift through all twelve cogs positions (NOT changing gears) in as little as 1.8 seconds. Wheel Top aren't happy with this as they aren't good enough numbers for a road groupset.
Wheel Top's road brifters will be mechanical. Hydraulic is not mentioned.
The road groupset is on target to be released by year end.
In other news, Hillhouse Capital (https://swiftpbi.com/financing/150729.html) (leading private equity firm) invested in L-TWOO back in February 2021.
Nothing new from Sensah.
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Wheel Top just dropped this 46 minute long video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1KF41177Vr) explaining their MTB groupset and are currently recruiting beta testers (https://t.bilibili.com/657066752908197905) for their road groupset.
I'll briefly summarise some of the more interesting points:
Road groupset beta testers are asked to prepare bikes with "11 speeds or more," meaning that the road groupset will support both 11 and 12 speeds like the MTB.
The MTB groupset will support 11 and 12 speed cassettes from SRAM and Shimano via software presets controlled on the companion app.
The MTB groupsets you saw listed for sale earlier this year were actually pre-production units offloaded by beta testers.
Wheel Top's road brifters will work with the MTB rear derailleur for gravel mullet setups.
The MTB rear derailleur uses an 800mAh battery (47.5g) with a slimmer 400mAh optional battery coming in the future. For reference, the SRAM battery is 300mAh and weighs 25g.
They'll release a downhill version of the MTB rear derailleur with a shorter cage (75mm vs 93mm).
There'll be a decked out version of the MTB rear derailleur and with black and gold pulleys (unclear if OSPW or not).
The MTB derailleur can shift through all twelve cogs positions (NOT changing gears) in as little as 1.8 seconds. Wheel Top aren't happy with this as they aren't good enough numbers for a road groupset.
Wheel Top's road brifters will be mechanical. Hydraulic is not mentioned.
The road groupset is on target to be released by year end.
In other news, Hillhouse Capital (https://swiftpbi.com/financing/150729.html) (leading private equity firm) invested in L-TWOO back in February 2021.
Nothing new from Sensah.
Goodness. StiffWeenies, any chance you have a twitter or microblog? Your news aggregation and updates are just unmatched on the Chinese cycling scene! Many thanks for taking the time.
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Goodness. StiffWeenies, any chance you have a twitter or microblog? Your news aggregation and updates are just unmatched on the Chinese cycling scene! Many thanks for taking the time.
He could totally start a channel
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Sounds pretty positive from the ecosystem perspective with everything being compatible and working together - assuming it does work.
I think a hydraulic road version is inevitable though, and soon, given how much more difficult cable actuated brake (and shifter) routing has become, and the rapidly diminishing availability of rim brake frames.
@StiffWeenies - is there any news on what might be the final retail price? Or how it might be priced on AliExpress? Presumably quite a bit cheaper than those beta units.
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Sounds pretty positive from the ecosystem perspective with everything being compatible and working together - assuming it does work.
I think a hydraulic road version is inevitable though, and soon, given how much more difficult cable actuated brake (and shifter) routing has become, and the rapidly diminishing availability of rim brake frames.
@StiffWeenies - is there any news on what might be the final retail price? Or how it might be priced on AliExpress? Presumably quite a bit cheaper than those beta units.
MTB groupset (shifter, derailleur, charger, 2x batteries) is 2300 RMB. They’ll also bundle it with their own crankset and the SRoad 10-50T cassette.
Estimates for the Road groupset (brifters & derailleurs) are all over the place. Some say 3K-3.5K, others 4K and up
Keep in mind that Ali prices are typically 10-15% more than Taobao, not to mention shipping and duties
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Not the news we've all been waiting to hear but it seems like Sensah has a revised FD (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV12Y4y1r7aF)
The FD cage is now stiffer while the spring tension has been reduced. The new FD is 3.4g heavier and is visually identical to the old one. The brifters now also have shorter throws.
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@StiffWeenies: Is there anyway to know which one we're buying when ordering a groupset from Sensah on AliExpress?
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@StiffWeenies: Is there anyway to know which one we're buying when ordering a groupset from Sensah on AliExpress?
The linked video is pretty much the only piece of content I could find talking about it.
Sensah is still niche in China and everyone who wanted a groupset has bought one already, so I don't think that there will be many Chinese forum posts touching on it either. Everyone is just waiting for the hydraulic brakes like on this forum.
Either way, Sensah doesn’t really serialize product iterations the way big brands do e.g. FD-5800 v. FD-5801. The only way right now to know for sure is by contacting your seller but that's provided they know about this very recent update and aren't more interested in offloading old stock.
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I'm glad they shortened the shifts. Was going to use my sensah groupset on next build. May get the shifters. It'd been nice if the shifts have a more noticeable tactile click.
The only concern I've noticed on my fd is the chrome plating. Its worn off from shifting. Im assuming it's cheap steel with copper then chromium plating.
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The first to road hydraulic braking isn’t Sensah or Wheel Top but L-TWOO!
SRAM hood shape, Campy style shifting and Shimano model name…but only compatible with RXT 2x13 derailleurs and has an unorthodox way of mounting callipers
Hopefully they'll also make 2x11 and 2x12 versions for R9/Shimano and RX compatibility
(https://i.imgur.com/i6I4VTP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lXtNaBW.jpg)
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Either way, Sensah doesn’t really serialize product iterations the way big brands do e.g. FD-5800 v. FD-5801. The only way right now to know for sure is by contacting your seller but that's provided they know about this very recent update and aren't more interested in offloading old stock.
Thanks for this BTW. I was contacted by Sensah in a “long time no see” email asking me if I was interested in putting in an order.
I said I’d like to wait, as I heard that hydro and electronic groups were coming
The rep simply replied, “Oh, you are well-informed”. And that was the end of the conversation
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The first to road hydraulic braking isn’t Sensah or Wheel Top but L-TWOO!
SRAM hood shape, Campy style shifting and Shimano model name…but only compatible with RXT 2x13 derailleurs and has an orthodox way of mounting callipers
Hopefully they'll also make 2x11 and 2x12 versions for R9/Shimano and RX compatibility
(https://i.imgur.com/i6I4VTP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lXtNaBW.jpg)
Hoods look nice. If they work with Shimano or Magura calipers, cool. If not ... their own calipers look ... hmmm.
Looking forward to an electronic version which will hopefully ape their MTB in working with Shimano / SRAM / maybe Campag cassettes.
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Interesting development indeed. Not on Ali yet that I can see. Any idea on price point?
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New Sensah hoods (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Bt4y1h7uf)
(https://i.imgur.com/HXEGc4S.jpg)
New material and molding process that should hopefully hold up better than the old ones
Black, White, Blue, Red and Brown color options
You can tell them apart at the bottom. The new ones have a grooved pattern underneath while the old ones are smooth.
Regarding Sensah hydraulic brakes, people are now saying that they'll come in October...
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So has anyone here bought and tested the RX 2x12 groupset? I'm tempted by the price but might go for the well known Sensah Empire.
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The primary issue is that the ergonomics are still pretty substandard - looking at the experience of people on YouTube you can't reach the thumb shifter from the drops (and compared to a Campag lever it's much further forward). I would wait until the new stuff rolls out and see if they bring it down for 12/11 speed mechanical as they look have copied the Campag Potenza/Centaur droopy thumb lever which is much better positioned than the current version.
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Sneak peak (https://www.douyin.com/video/7123029757683404070) of the Wheel Top road rim levers. They've also confirmed that road hydraulic levers are in the works.
(https://i.imgur.com/d0w43TC.png)
They've come a long way from this 2015 2x9 prototype (https://tiebac.baidu.com/p/3750586019?pn=1)
(https://i.imgur.com/PdZ1ukv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ysT3nz7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dRN0ebk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/R2vD1Ge.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gDKOwUS.jpg)
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Sneak peak (https://www.douyin.com/video/7123029757683404070) of the Wheel Top road rim levers. They've also confirmed that road hydraulic levers are in the works.
(https://i.imgur.com/d0w43TC.png)
Speaking of which, what's the verdict of the status of the WheelTop MTB derailleur / shifter being sold on AliExpress now? Still beta test units? Price appears to have normalized and a lot of people seem to be buying, judging by recent reviews - indicating these are production units. Or is this one of those drip feed launches where it goes into production but is continually updated? Western publications were quoting WheelTop reps at EuroBike as saying that it wasn't yet released ... but that may be for non-Chinese markets.
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Speaking of which, what's the verdict of the status of the WheelTop MTB derailleur / shifter being sold on AliExpress now? Still beta test units? Price appears to have normalized and a lot of people seem to be buying, judging by recent reviews - indicating these are production units. Or is this one of those drip feed launches where it goes into production but is continually updated? Western publications were quoting WheelTop reps at EuroBike as saying that it wasn't yet released ... but that may be for non-Chinese markets.
Very few takers from what I can see. Priced too close to GX and groupsets still haven't shipped for the people who did order. I also can't find any real customer testimonials.
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The primary issue is that the ergonomics are still pretty substandard - looking at the experience of people on YouTube you can't reach the thumb shifter from the drops (and compared to a Campag lever it's much further forward). I would wait until the new stuff rolls out and see if they bring it down for 12/11 speed mechanical as they look have copied the Campag Potenza/Centaur droopy thumb lever which is much better positioned than the current version.
From the looks of it, you may not even be able to comfortably reach the thumb shifter from the hoods! I remember that issue from the old Sora I started on back in early 2000's.
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I went ahead and ordered this groupset with the zrace BR-005 brakes, will post a review once I get it built (end of August or early September). Not too worried about shifting in the drops and I figure that if there is some sort of hydraulic groupset released by either L-TWOO or Sensah soon, it will probably cost more than these mechanical sets anyways and I'm trying to stick to a low budget.
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L-TWOO posted a video of a hybrid electronic system on their youtube channel.
youtube.com/watch?v=mezfHQ9_0pQ
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Any idea when these might be available to public? Didn't see them on their site yet.
The first to road hydraulic braking isn’t Sensah or Wheel Top but L-TWOO!
SRAM hood shape, Campy style shifting and Shimano model name…but only compatible with RXT 2x13 derailleurs and has an orthodox way of mounting callipers
Hopefully they'll also make 2x11 and 2x12 versions for R9/Shimano and RX compatibility
(https://i.imgur.com/i6I4VTP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lXtNaBW.jpg)
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L-TWOO posted a video of a hybrid electronic system on their youtube channel.
youtube.com/watch?v=mezfHQ9_0pQ
If you look at the first 20s, this electronic shifting is not like what you expect… electric mechanical shifter which will use a traditional mechanical cable derailleur with an external servo controller which was demonstrated by XShifter in 2017 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/xshifter-precise-wireless-shifting-for-any-bike#/
This will keep the cost down
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I have got my hands on this groupset including a nice looking L-TWOO branded crankset, everything seems really decent quality. Unfortunately there is a small cut on one of the shifter hoods that I suspect was caused by the shift cable abrading it in transit.
Update: Seller (318Bike Store) is sending me a replacement hood for the one that was damaged in transit.
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I have got my hands on this groupset including a nice looking L-TWOO branded crankset, everything seems really decent quality. Unfortunately there is a small cut on one of the shifter hoods that I suspect was caused by the shift cable abrading it in transit.
That looks like a zrace Rx crank. Do you know if the shifters still click once it reaches the end of the index or does it stop?
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That looks like a zrace Rx crank. Do you know if the shifters still click once it reaches the end of the index or does it stop?
They stop clicking, you can still depress the shift mechanism slightly but it seems pretty obvious that it is the end.
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They stop clicking, you can still depress the shift mechanism slightly but it seems pretty obvious that it is the end.
Ok sounds like they have fixed it. The 11 speed seems to keep clicking according to Tracevelo. Also did they add the washer for the clamp bolt?
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Ok sounds like they have fixed it. The 11 speed seems to keep clicking according to Tracevelo. Also did they add the washer for the clamp bolt?
Yes, there is a metal washer under the clamp bolt on both shifters.
My frame just arrived in the country and should be here in a few days, I will report back when I get everything installed. :D
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Any idea when these might be available to public? Didn't see them on their site yet.
The marketing video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1gg411r7jJ) is now up on their social media
Looks like it'll be a gravel 1x release first followed by road 2x. No mention of when they'll be available though
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Interesting. Hope the improved ergonomics make their way throughout the lineup too. Looks like an interesting new rear derailleur too (for 1x setups).
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L-Twoo finally posted their new hydraulic brakes on their instagram page.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ch_MERfDr-D/
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Interesting. Hope the improved ergonomics make their way throughout the lineup too. Looks like an interesting new rear derailleur too (for 1x setups).
I hope the ergonomics improve so the up shift can be reached from the drops
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Totally unsourced conjecture, but there is speculation that the L-TWOO RX 2x12 shifters share the same Shimano 11s Road pull ratios with the R9 2x11 and GR9 1x11. This means that Shimano 11s Road RDs (incl. Tiagra 4700 10s) can potentially be turned into 12s with a pair of L-TWOO 12s shifters.
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There's a new version of the SRX Pro rear derailleur in the works with improvements to the chain retention:
https://youtube.com/shorts/RsCjf7nYvsM?feature=share
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Totally unsourced conjecture, but there is speculation that the L-TWOO RX 2x12 shifters share the same Shimano 11s Road pull ratios with the R9 2x11 and GR9 1x11. This means that Shimano 11s Road RDs (incl. Tiagra 4700 10s) can potentially be turned into 12s with a pair of L-TWOO 12s shifters.
Hope they do this. Shimano will be so mad. And it will be delicious.
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I have finished my budget gravel bike build (https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3835.0.html) using the L-TWOO RX groupset, so far I am really impressed by it! Ignoring the obvious downside of thumb shifter positioning it is performing really well so far. I had to replace both front and rear cable pinch bolts which both sheared apart at ~4 NM, fortunately they just used a removable nut so it was an easy fix. I also am really impressed by the Zrace BR-005 brakes, they are easily comparable to my road bike which has 105 R7020 hydraulics albeit using 140 mm rotors (I am using 160 mm with the BR-005).
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Totally unsourced conjecture, but there is speculation that the L-TWOO RX 2x12 shifters share the same Shimano 11s Road pull ratios with the R9 2x11 and GR9 1x11. This means that Shimano 11s Road RDs (incl. Tiagra 4700 10s) can potentially be turned into 12s with a pair of L-TWOO 12s shifters.
Sounds like Trace Velo’s next video ;D
There's a new version of the SRX Pro rear derailleur in the works with improvements to the chain retention:
https://youtube.com/shorts/RsCjf7nYvsM?feature=share
That’s pretty cool. I was underwhelmed by the “clutch” on the first SRX
I wonder if they will fix the detent on the barrel adjuster too
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Totally unsourced part 2: Decathlon is rumoured to be considering speccing their Triban bikes with L-TWOO hydraulic...
L-TWOO are already present in some Genesis bikes retailed by Walmart, but scoring Decathlon as an OEM customer would really catapult the brand into the next echelon of component supplier
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Totally unsourced part 2: Decathlon is rumoured to be considering speccing their Triban bikes with L-TWOO hydraulic...
L-TWOO are already present in some Genesis bikes retailed by Walmart, but scoring Decathlon as an OEM customer would really catapult the brand into the next echelon of component supplier
That would be huge. Especially given how much Decathlon are likely to push bikes and cycling in the next couple of years.
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What would that do to their pricing if it happens I wonder.
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RX 2x12 carbon hydraulic left brifter weight
(https://i.imgur.com/cXoI6zL.jpg)
A L-TWOO employee recently posted a thread (https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8007388185) sharing some anecdotes on the company's hydraulic development process. It's too long and technical for me to properly translate but you can get a basic idea with machine translation. The gist is that L-TWOO faced some pretty significant patent barriers which limited their design direction. They eventually settled on a Campy style design for reasons practical and legal: the vertical master cylinder layout performed the best and also left the most room for the shifting mechanism. But most importantly, Campy didn't patent their hydraulic implementation!
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It's really cool to see, but I was so surprised by how good mechanical brakes are getting after trying my Zrace BR-005 that I don't think bleeding and installing hydraulic brakes is worth it personally. I have installed 105 R7020 twice and both times ended up with mineral oil literally everywhere. I suppose if you have full internal routing it makes more sense.
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great news, do we have an idea of the release date?
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...I don't think bleeding and installing hydraulic brakes is worth it personally. I have installed 105 R7020 twice and both times ended up with mineral oil literally everywhere
A couple of bleeding more and I'm sure you'll do it without a drop on the bike or floor.
I'm happy there will be some price competition for hydro brakes.
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But most importantly, Campy didn't patent their hydraulic implementation!
Probably because Magura designed their hydraulic setup originally, and I don't think they're a particularly litigious company. Plus they've been around so long, they likely had prior art / patents for something similar longer ago than the duration of patents.
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I got a message on AliEx from the LTwoo store, November release for their hydraulic brake RX groupset.
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Looks like they have changed the shifter ergonomics!
http://www.ltwoo.com/en/pr.jsp?_jcp=3_568
(http://27473246.s21i.faiusr.com/2/ABUIABACGAAg0sqUmQYo2P6_gwUwgAY4-gU.jpg)
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Does the model number for the shifters (ST-GR7020-L/R) possibly imply Shimano 105 compatibility?
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Looks like they have changed the shifter ergonomics!
http://www.ltwoo.com/en/pr.jsp?_jcp=3_568
(http://27473246.s21i.faiusr.com/2/ABUIABACGAAg0sqUmQYo2P6_gwUwgAY4-gU.jpg)
That looks nice on the hoods. Similar to Sram and Shimano 12x . (Although i like the 11 speed shifter shape more)
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Forgive my lackluster knowledge/understanding in advance, I’ve read a few things but still can’t quite come to a conclusion on my own.
On the new RX12 derailuer from LTWoo, it lists a total capacity of 37t. Would this be capable of working on a 9-46 cassette with a 40t crank ring? Or does the capacity refer to largest cassette gear it would fit with? Perhaps a derailuer drop bracket would be needed?
I’m planning on getting this groupset (or a Sensah if their hydraulics hit first and are more appropriate) to build myself a gravel bike mullet setup.
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Total capacity refers to the amount of slack the cage can take up. For a 1x, it's max vs min cog, a 9-46t would need 37t capacity. For a 2x example, an 11-32t with 50/34 chainrings would need (32-11)+(50-34) = (21)+(16) = 37t as well. What you need to find out is the max cog size. I would guess that since max cog size isn't listed (in the descriptions I looked up) and it's usually paired with 11-30t or 11-34t cassettes, that it's unlikely to work well with a 46t max cog. I would rather find a rear derailleur with same pull ratio than use a big drop bracket.
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Thank you for the clear explanation.
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To add to what acedeuce802 stated... RD's are also spec'd w/ a min cog size. I'd be cautious of using an 11t min cog spec RD with a 9t small cog unless you have prior knowledge of it working. In some cases an after market cage can be swapped onto a given RD to make it work with particular cassettes.
Total capacity refers to the amount of slack the cage can take up. For a 1x, it's max vs min cog, a 9-46t would need 37t capacity. For a 2x example, an 11-32t with 50/34 chainrings would need (32-11)+(50-34) = (21)+(16) = 37t as well. What you need to find out is the max cog size. I would guess that since max cog size isn't listed (in the descriptions I looked up) and it's usually paired with 11-30t or 11-34t cassettes, that it's unlikely to work well with a 46t max cog. I would rather find a rear derailleur with same pull ratio than use a big drop bracket.
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To add to what acedeuce802 stated... RD's are also spec'd w/ a min cog size. I'd be cautious of using an 11t min cog spec RD with a 9t small cog unless you have prior knowledge of it working. In some cases an after market cage can be swapped onto a given RD to make it work with particular cassettes.
2 cogs are definitely a very small difference for derailleur to stop working properly. As an example from mtb world: Shimano Deore rd-m5100 (11 sp) and rd-m6100 (12 sp) are exactly the same derailleurs construction-wise, but first one is specified for 11-51 cassette, and second - for 10-51.
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Sram and Shimano are pretty conservative when it comes to spec'ing their components. That said, the RD scenario you cited was most likely a part that was optimized for 11t min cog that would then obviously work with a 12t. It's probably not the best example of something working outside its intended box.
I'd agree that 2t is a fairly small change in larger cogs but the difference between a 11t and a 9t is 22%, the difference between a 40t and a 42t is 5%. The difference in diameter between 11t and 9t is not "very small" relative to the size of the parts.
AFAIK, nobody makes an RD spec'd for 9t but manufactures like E13 knew what they had to work with when making a cassette that was designed for a 10t min. Like I said above, Sram and Shimano spec things conservatively enough that pushing things a little bit usually works out. For example, you can typically squeeze a few extra teeth in Shimano's capacity spec as well as usually get away with an extra tooth or two on the max cog size (sometimes by using a longer B screw).
One of my concerns with the scenario in question would be the amount of chain wrap on the 9t cog. It may work OK but wear could be a factor. That wear may or may not be acceptable depending on the individual. The cassettes that would allow such a scenario definitely aren't cheap.
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So I just read that shimano and sram have different set up for the index system? That sram works with sensah but not with shimano? But ltwoo and mirconew do work with shimano? But I have seen people mix the set ups. Like I was hoping to mix some micronew shifters with a empire rear. Is that not do able? I like the interface of simple up down shifting. Well I ordered some for my cheepo bike. I might up grade the 2x7 set up later. and move every thing to my 1994 fuji marlborough special and go more gravel less mtb. Anyways does it not work?
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That said, the RD scenario you cited was most likely a part that was optimized for 11t min cog that would then obviously work with a 12t.
10T, not 12T
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So I just read that shimano and sram have different set up for the index system? That sram works with sensah but not with shimano? But ltwoo and mirconew do work with shimano? But I have seen people mix the set ups. Like I was hoping to mix some micronew shifters with a empire rear. Is that not do able? I like the interface of simple up down shifting. Well I ordered some for my cheepo bike. I might up grade the 2x7 set up later. and move every thing to my 1994 fuji marlborough special and go more gravel less mtb. Anyways does it not work?
I messaged Trace Velo awhile back and he mentioned L-Twoo follows campy cable pull? Sensah has a line-up of shifters dedicated just for Shimano cable pull such as the Team Pro 11-speed shifters (and others with various names). The Sensah Empire and SRX shifters follow the SRAM cable pull ratio.
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I messaged Trace Velo awhile back and he mentioned L-Twoo follows campy cable pull? Sensah has a line-up of shifters dedicated just for Shimano cable pull such as the Team Pro 11-speed shifters (and others with various names). The Sensah Empire and SRX shifters follow the SRAM cable pull ratio.
Ok, So if I end up liking the micronew shifters and want to upgrade, 105 it is.
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There's a bunch of news hiding in what looks like plain sight in Ltwoo's updated catalogue:
http://www.ltwoo.com/en/col.jsp?id=175
On the MTB side, there's a new 'T' series of shifters/derailleurs with clutch rear derailleurs. These are across the range, going from 8-13 speed. There's also the semi-electronic shifters as has already been shown.
(https://i.imgur.com/IEyOoCD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vzvFEX7.png)
For gravel, there's the new shifter shape available in 1x12, with brake calipers (as has been leaked previously). There's also a new rear derailleur with a clutch that comes over from the MTB line, but has been redesigned to take a barrel adjuster which is across the range from 9-12 speed. All other components remain the same.
(https://i.imgur.com/EczRQ7x.png)
On the road, the new shifters are available in a 2x12 version, with aluminium or carbon blades.
(https://i.imgur.com/lQk999F.png)
No separate brake caliper listed so I assume it's the same as the gravel one. No other new road components, and the new lever shape is only seen on the 2x12 hydraulic content, everything else remains the same.
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S-Ride are also working on hydraulic drop levers (https://www.patentguru.com/cn/CN217435967U)
(https://i.imgur.com/rySaQgG.png)
unsure if they plan to go into Road 2x or if it is just meant to pair with their 1x gravel RD (https://www.s-ridebike.com/s-ride-rd-m520c.html)
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Why can they just do a di2 meets sram style shifters. wired and wireless. I mean if you have a swappable battery box you can easily add on a wired function. Just in case. and the you still need wireless connectivity for computers. Its literally just a wireless protocol. You can also have like and I2c or serial connection via wire. All which run a servo to push pull in changing gears. One could literally build a basic system with like a stm32 chip. linear servo. I really don't know why shimano's and srams systems are sooooo over priced.and why chinese companies dont have a system out yet. Like the parts needed are maybe $30 worth of electronics. at the very most. I dont know how they are $1500 over the standard groupset.
Anyways I cant wait for cheaper chinese groupsets.
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An actually decent chiner mtb shifter would be pretty awesome. Hopefully it's not another disappointment.
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There's a bunch of news hiding in what looks like plain sight in Ltwoo's updated catalogue:
http://www.ltwoo.com/en/col.jsp?id=175
On the MTB side, there's a new 'T' series of shifters/derailleurs with clutch rear derailleurs. These are across the range, going from 8-13 speed. There's also the semi-electronic shifters as has already been shown.
(https://i.imgur.com/IEyOoCD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vzvFEX7.png)
For gravel, there's the new shifter shape available in 1x12, with brake calipers (as has been leaked previously). There's also a new rear derailleur with a clutch that comes over from the MTB line, but has been redesigned to take a barrel adjuster which is across the range from 9-12 speed. All other components remain the same.
(https://i.imgur.com/EczRQ7x.png)
On the road, the new shifters are available in a 2x12 version, with aluminium or carbon blades.
(https://i.imgur.com/lQk999F.png)
No separate brake caliper listed so I assume it's the same as the gravel one. No other new road components, and the new lever shape is only seen on the 2x12 hydraulic content, everything else remains the same.
Can't wait to see when this becomes available and the pricing.
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Well...looks like I have to reconfigure the gravel build I've been budgeting for. These are exciting developments. Hoping that clutch is an actual clutch.
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Well...looks like I have to reconfigure the gravel build I've been budgeting for. These are exciting developments. Hoping that clutch is an actual clutch.
I'm in the same boat as you. I'm building a gravel bike now and the LTwoo gravel groupset looks really compelling, hydraulic brakes and a clutch on the rear derailleur would be wonderful.
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I'm looking out for:
1) The electronic-hydraulic versions.
2) Reports of how the hydraulic version works with Magura FM calipers.
3) Hoping that on the gravel side of things, the RD / FD will work with large(ish) cassettes and standard compact road rings - i.e. like the current 50/34 with 11/40 setup I'm currently running on my gravel bike - mechanical GRX 8xx RD, XTR 11s cassette, DA 91xx FD - that but wireless and without the Shimano / SRAM / Campag tax and being forced into 12s would be awesome.
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Pretty nice...
I am also curious about fully hydraulic road shifters from Sensah... ? Will they also present some?
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There's a bunch of news hiding in what looks like plain sight in Ltwoo's updated catalogue:
http://www.ltwoo.com/en/col.jsp?id=175
On the MTB side, there's a new 'T' series of shifters/derailleurs with clutch rear derailleurs. These are across the range, going from 8-13 speed. There's also the semi-electronic shifters as has already been shown.
(https://i.imgur.com/IEyOoCD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vzvFEX7.png)
For gravel, there's the new shifter shape available in 1x12, with brake calipers (as has been leaked previously). There's also a new rear derailleur with a clutch that comes over from the MTB line, but has been redesigned to take a barrel adjuster which is across the range from 9-12 speed. All other components remain the same.
(https://i.imgur.com/EczRQ7x.png)
On the road, the new shifters are available in a 2x12 version, with aluminium or carbon blades.
(https://i.imgur.com/lQk999F.png)
No separate brake caliper listed so I assume it's the same as the gravel one. No other new road components, and the new lever shape is only seen on the 2x12 hydraulic content, everything else remains the same.
Interesting. I notice the lack of thumb up-shifting on the gravel set (unless I am missing it). Contrasting to that is the oversized thumb lever on the RX shifters.
I wonder what the shifting action will be…unless anyone has insight
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Interesting. I notice the lack of thumb up-shifting on the gravel set (unless I am missing it). Contrasting to that is the oversized thumb lever on the RX shifters.
I wonder what the shifting action will be…unless anyone has insight
I think since they're strictly 1x the thumb shifter is not present on the left shifter.
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In case people are curious, LTWOO says on their site that new products will all be out in September.
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Bit odd imo not to put a paddle (even a dummy one) on the left brifter on the 1x. It looks weird, and a non-dummy could be used either for a dropper or converting to 2x ...
Also, having the thumb shifter on the right and not the left is going to feel very odd and lead to imbalance between left and right hands when you're on the hoods, and consequently different weight distribution that certainly won't aid steering or braking.
In light of this I can't see many people choosing the gravel brifter set.
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Bit odd imo not to put a paddle (even a dummy one) on the left brifter on the 1x. It looks weird, and a non-dummy could be used either for a dropper or converting to 2x ...
Also, having the thumb shifter on the right and not the left is going to feel very odd and lead to imbalance between left and right hands when you're on the hoods, and consequently different weight distribution that certainly won't add steering or braking.
In light of this I can't see many people choosing the gravel brifter set.
Campagnolo does the same thing with their Ekar shifters. And that line from what info I can gather seems like it is popular / good in overall?
And because Ltwoo is already copying their designs and internals I guess they just followed what they did.
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These are some very exciting news! To me hydraulic disc brakes > electronic groupset as their newest groupsets all performed very well for me shifting wise.
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I'm interested in the 1x . I assume the tall hoods are so there is enough piston motion to pump fluid. Are these going to be longer or wider than cable pull hoods? When I had 505 hoods they were wide and longer. My 685 hoods are closer in width but still longer than typical hoods. With those hoods I always have to adjust my bar/stem/spacers for my reach.
I'm very surprised by the weights ltwoo has for all the new parts. Mostly shocked by the shifter weights being cable pull and hydro @ 235g and the 1x 180g.
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I think since they're strictly 1x the thumb shifter is not present on the left shifter.
I mean, I couldn’t see it on the right (I could be missing it…)
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I agree not having a dropper option for the left brifter is a bit sad, but I don't think it'll deter a lot of people from buying it, I was at 100b7 two weeks ago (one of the biggest gravel event in Canada with 1100+ riders) and I didn't see much dropper posts, and this event had some gnarly singletrack/cx downhills. Although I love mine on my fullsus I don't see much use for my gravel yet as I don't quite do the same sketchy stuff as on my mtb, plus I bikepack a lot with it and it's just more complicated getting a bag that works with the dropper imo.
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L-TWOO hydraulic is finally here (https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/r3U20fSXWoyNZCXmNSB9_A)
Prices listed below include brifters, calipers and derailleurs. Chain, chainring, cassette, etc. are not included.
2x12 Carbon: 2280RMB
2x11 Carbon: 1880RMB
2x11 Alloy: 1388RMB
Weights
2s Left Brifter: 301g
12s Right Brifter: 305g (can definitely be lighter because the brake lever is Alloy while the shift lever is Carbon)
Front Derailleur: 99g
12s Rear Derailleur (Carbon): 212g
12s Rear Derailleur (Alloy): 232g
Front Caliper incl. Hose: 160g
Rear Caliper incl. Hose: 178g
(https://i.imgur.com/lazf9z0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZQfBggQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9Ml4gRa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a4utiSP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ORqnewV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ov9BlsU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZunzbN7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7AaxdhM.jpg)
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thnaks a lot for the update, the price looks very good.
but cannot access your link.
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L-TWOO hydraulic is finally here (https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/r3U20fSXWoyNZCXmNSB9_A)
Weights
2s Left Brifter: 301g
12s Right Brifter: 305g (can definitely be lighter because the brake lever is Alloy while the shift lever is Carbon)
Front Derailleur: 99g
12s Rear Derailleur (Alloy): 212g
12s Rear Derailleur (Carbon): 232g
Front Caliper incl. Hose: 160g
Rear Caliper incl. Hose: 178g
Aren't the weights for Alloy/Carbon swapped here? The Carbon one is heavier according to your description.
Also thank you for the pictures! Can't wait for a review, do we know what kind of hydraulic system they're using? Which fluid (mineral or dot) etc. Are the pads compatible with Shimano etc. So many questions!
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Article highlights the best I could understand. There is a lot covered with tons of pictures I suggest reading and correcting anything I posted.
He tested the aluminum 2x12
weighed the shifters and brakes
305g per shifter and 160/178g brakes
Brakes need improvement. Long shifter pull for brake engagement. I think he said hoses aren't as good as sram/shimano. Needs adapters to mount brakes even if using 140mm. Larger gap between pads so long lever pull needed. Needs more and/or harder finger pull than shimano. They plan to improve the hydraulic flow.
Shifting not as crisp as electronic. Think he was saying shift teeth ramps need improvement for better shifting on the cassette.
Shifters look shorter and narrower than 7020 but are much taller. He explains how ltwoo shifters work while being smaller than shimano.
The gravel derailleur needs better rebound but chain retention was good. The gravel kit is still in testing.
There will be limited amount of groupsets available which dealers will get first.
He believes there are improvements/changes they will be making.
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Were they testing with Shimano/Sram cassette? If it's one of those aliexpress cassette (Sunshine, ztto, goldix etc.) shifting is always finicky, sometimes the cassette itself is loose (it's not riveted but screwed in with cheap screws. The ramps are bad etc.
Larger gap between pads does have an advantage though, usually results in less brake pad rubbing. Although if the throw is too long it might not be as responsive as Shimano brakes. I also did notice that using genuine hydraulic hose from shimano seems to be better than those cheap ones I found on Aliexpress for like a few quids per meter.
Again thanks for your hard work, hoping somebody like Trace Velo can review that groupset in the near future :)
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I suspect it'll be a couple of months before this turns up on Ali.
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China cycling just released a video about this groupset
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sjKwkBZrG8
Not that much technical info like installation/bleeding/is there a clutch on derailleur/etc but you do have the pricing.
I'm still not sure about the ergonomics... On one hand it looks like it can be easily be shifted from the drops, but the thumb lever looks a bit far to be used on the hoods.
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Nice! Just watched it. He did mention some kind of tensioner on the gravel rd. Not sure if its an actual clutch or a tensioner similar to Sensah. Price sounds pretty fantastic. I'll definitely be holding off on a gravel build until this gets on Ali...after the first wave of kinks are worked out.
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prices are amazing
- 190 USD for 2x11 Alloy
- 260 USD for 2X11 Carbon
- 318 USD for 2x12 Carbon
In terms of weight we are close to a shimano 105
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prices are amazing
- 190 USD for 2x11 Alloy
- 260 USD for 2X11 Carbon
- 318 USD for 2x12 Carbon
In terms of weight we are close to a shimano 105
Just remember home market pricing isn't RoW pricing. In Japan Dura-Ace 12s cassettes barely break €200 ... EU they're typically €315-350.
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Another pre-production WheelTop EDS review. TLDR - seems pretty impressed with hardware, but thinks documentation and app need serious work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qNV0xiHeAo
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Do we know what freehub the LTWOO 12 speed gravel cassette will take?
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im going to order an L-twoo set for my gravel build, do we know what cranks are suited to the system?
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LTWoo's latest Promo video on their hydraulic groupset is on Youtube now. I can't seem to post the link?
https://youtu.be/BL9z7hkgFGI (https://youtu.be/BL9z7hkgFGI)
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The lever / master cylinder / hose connection is what concerns me ... If it's good and reliable then likely little problem using a third party caliper, as you say. But if it's poor or finicky, and I expect the first attempts to be really poor, then what's the point? Could be totally wrong and some of them knock it out of the park on the first try ... We'll see. Either way I'll be quite happy to leave behind €1500-5000 groupsets.
Re: Sensah I've no idea what their funding situation is. But their strategy so far has clearly been stack them high and sell them cheap. There's definitely money behind a couple of other Chinese companies working on electronic.
Someone just posted this video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1VG4y1d7S7/) showing L-TWOO RX hydro levers connected to Onirii XR callipers, which are the FM version of M2 2-piston PM.
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Someone just posted this video (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1VG4y1d7S7/) showing L-TWOO RX hydro levers connected to Onirii XR callipers, which are the FM version of M2 2-piston PM.
More interested in whether their electronic stuff will play nice with Magura FM calipers :D Or failing that Shimano.
Though I spoke to two SRAM dealers recently who are convinced that the new Red / Force AXS will move to mineral oil. I'm not sure it'll happen personally, as I think SRAM want as much compatibility as possible, and there will be a lot of Rival AXS (DOT) and Red / Force XPLR (DOT) still on the market. Standard Red and Force AXS are getting big clearance reductions atm ... Red particularly. You can get the 2x gruppo without chainset for ~€1300 including VAT atm.
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More interested in whether their electronic stuff will play nice with Magura FM calipers :D Or failing that Shimano.
Though I spoke to two SRAM dealers recently who are convinced that the new Red / Force AXS will move to mineral oil. I'm not sure it'll happen personally, as I think SRAM want as much compatibility as possible, and there will be a lot of Rival AXS (DOT) and Red / Force XPLR (DOT) still on the market. Standard Red and Force AXS are getting big clearance reductions atm ... Red particularly. You can get the 2x gruppo without chainset for ~€1300 including VAT atm.
I'm not sure I trust anything from anyone with fingernails like that... :o
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I'm not sure I trust anything from anyone with fingernails like that... :o
In some cultures, it's supposed to be a sign of wealth if you have a long pinky nail.
Though I'm definitely in the camp of keeping my fingernails nice a trim! ;D
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Sensah has a new rear derailleur for the SRX group with a (supposedly) stronger clutch like chain tensioner. Anyone have more info on it?
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2271799817509238.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US
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Sensah has a new rear derailleur for the SRX group with a (supposedly) stronger clutch like chain tensioner. Anyone have more info on it?
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2271799817509238.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US
If you order, you should definitely confirm with the Sensah store that you will receive the new version. Recent reviews are showing people are getting the old one, but paying for the new RD prices. If that's the case you can order elsewhere for cheaper on AliEx.
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I ordered the L-twoo 2x12 group set….. will post photos when it arrives in a month.
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Sensah has a new rear derailleur for the SRX group with a (supposedly) stronger clutch like chain tensioner. Anyone have more info on it?
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2271799817509238.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US
Had one on order that just arrived today, the new clutch looks good at first sight.
Will replace the original derailleur on my gravel bike to see how well it works in real life....
BR
Chris
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Totally unsourced conjecture, but there is speculation that the L-TWOO RX 2x12 shifters share the same Shimano 11s Road pull ratios with the R9 2x11 and GR9 1x11. This means that Shimano 11s Road RDs (incl. Tiagra 4700 10s) can potentially be turned into 12s with a pair of L-TWOO 12s shifters.
It works! (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1id4y1x7X5/) R7000 RD shifts 12 sprockets with RX levers
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For the ltwoo 12 speed, what kind of cassettes can be used? Will the fit in a normal hg freehub?
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Shimano 12 speed road cassettes and a few Chiner 12 speed cassettes on Aliexpress fit on a normal HG 11 speed road freehub.
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The Gravel version of the Ltwoo hydraulic groupset is out and sadly it's also over 400 USD
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804802939959.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.774767efmRoE9z&algo_pvid=48585ed6-40ff-4ee3-8b07-6938bac17626&algo_exp_id=48585ed6-40ff-4ee3-8b07-6938bac17626-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000031258443291%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21577.13%21421.3%21%21%21%21%21%402101d91e16703419129347192e8964%2112000031258443291%21sea&curPageLogUid=92tEBXJoDD9J
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Yeah, 510 for us here in the EU...
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Did they mention if they'll do the Ltwoo GRT hydraulic in 11 speed, like the road groupset?
Mechanical braking is one area that Ltwoo cut corners. I just set up the Ltwoo GR9 1x 11 speed gravel shifters on my road bike, and there is no way to adjust brake pull on the shifters unlike Shimano and even Sensah. Plus they're a bit clanky in-use. I have to admit though, Ltwoo campy style trigger shifting feels really good and shifts better than Sensah in my opinion.
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I think the new rx has reach adjustment. I think it's like a 2mm screw on the front of the brake. There is a rubber tab on the inside of the brake levers. It stops the shift lever from clattering but the lever does hang up on the rubber every so often. This leaves the lever about 2-3mm unflush with the brake lever. I'm use to some texture on the shifter levelers. They are very smooth other than the screen printed logo under the clear coat.
The thumb shifter does take a firm push. I think it will be usable from the drops. The rubber hood feel nice and thick. Can see the mold seam and won't be felt.
Brakes have to use their adapters. there are 4 to choose from 140/160 and 160/180. Tons of bolts. Compression bolt,olive and barb given.
My general feeling to the groupset is there are some very nicely done parts but I notice when there are corners cuts.
The front derailleur has cable guides. Rear looks nice has a nicely done carbon front cage. There are two type of pulleys the lower one having a more wave design. Both derailleur still use cheaper materials and manufacturing.
Haven't played with anything on a bike yet. I hope it does what I have planned.
Weights
Shifters 582g
Brakes with hoses and adapters 372g
Rear derailleur 218g
Front derailleur 108g
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I think the new rx has reach adjustment. I think it's like a 2mm screw on the front of the brake. There is a rubber tab on the inside of the brake levers. It stops the shift lever from clattering but the lever does hang up on the rubber every so often. This leaves the lever about 2-3mm unflush with the brake lever. I'm use to some texture on the shifter levelers. They are very smooth other than the screen printed logo under the clear coat.
The thumb shifter does take a firm push. I think it will be usable from the drops. The rubber hood feel nice and thick. Can see the mold seam and won't be felt.
Brakes have to use their adapters. there are 4 to choose from 140/160 and 160/180. Tons of bolts. Compression bolt,olive and barb given.
My general feeling to the groupset is there are some very nicely done parts but I notice when there are corners cuts.
The front derailleur has cable guides. Rear looks nice has a nicely done carbon front cage. There are two type of pulleys the lower one having a more wave design. Both derailleur still use cheaper materials and manufacturing.
Haven't played with anything on a bike yet. I hope it does what I have planned.
Weights
Shifters 582g
Brakes with hoses and adapters 372g
Rear derailleur 218g
Front derailleur 108g
How's the spring look on the RX rear derailleur? The GR9 spring looks tiny compared to beefy coiled springs Shimano uses. Tension seems good on the GR9, but I'm wondering if that's one area Shimano just likes to over engineer.
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prototype Sensah hydraulic levers
(https://i.imgur.com/rqES1My.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oL7hFAd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/360Smoz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CBArOor.jpg)
Newest (top) v. Older (bottom) Sensah hydraulic lever patent drawings
(https://i.imgur.com/tPvcgyL.jpg)
future Sensah RD patent drawings
(https://i.imgur.com/uJTRP72.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/xuQ7jgO.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ADpebEw.png)
L-TWOO electronic hydraulic lever patent drawings
(https://i.imgur.com/L2WpqI1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FKAhpdA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GqJDXOB.jpg)
L-TWOO seatpost battery patent drawings
(https://i.imgur.com/74PdDys.png)
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I wonder how fast Sensah can get that into production? LTwoo already released both 12 and 11 speed hydraulic groupsets and their 1x groupset is releasing any day. Honestly I didn't think LTwoo was even viable competition next to Sensah, but after using their products and them going hydraulic first, I definitely consider them the market leader right now in Chinese bike components. LTwoo has already established a US presence before Sensah.
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I kind of like that button battery idea on the LTwoo... I keep one of those in my tool roll anyways for my HRM and you can get them for under $2 a pop and rechargeable options too. No need to worry about finding some proprietary battery. I wonder if that seat post battery is a couple of 18650 batteries or something similarly easy to obtain and replace.
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L-TWOO eRX hydraulic levers
(https://i.imgur.com/WynfXbs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/osdGscG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tnn2Egv.jpg)
Wheel Top EDS TX electronic groupset
(https://i.imgur.com/4BjxtJU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IkItobJ.jpg)
S-Ride ST-R600 (https://cn.s-ride.net/products/road-bike-dual-control-lever.html) drop levers
(https://i.imgur.com/M9f5Xpq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pZevIpb.jpg)
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I really hope LTwoo sticks to Campy-style shifting. I never liked Di2 because the shift buttons are way to close together.
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Looks great! Any other details...price, availability. Also the the e in eRX means electronic?
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I really hope LTwoo sticks to Campy-style shifting. I never liked Di2 because the shift buttons are way to close together.
LTWOO looks to go the route of SRAM, with a single paddle, isn't it ?
I have setup my Campagnolo EPS to act like SRAM 8)
Unfortunately they do not allow simultaneous tap to toggle the rings.
I so much of a fan, that my MTB works the same, with two blips buttons, to shift, and act on the dropper when pressed simultaneously.
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Certainly looks like 2023 could be a big year for L-Twoo - hopefully they can iron out any issues from the hydraulic road mechanical launch and get supply meeting demand along with developing the electronic groupset.
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The year of the groupsets. Hoping Sensah makes some waves with their upcoming kit as well.
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L-TWOO eRX electronic groupset
(https://i.imgur.com/HQwbHgO.jpg)
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Anyone tried their hydraulic brifters with Shimano / Magura / Campag calipers yet?
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Anyone tried their hydraulic brifters with Shimano / Magura / Campag calipers yet?
The Onirii XR calipers work on both L-TWOO and ST-R785 (https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8178734461) brifters, so it should be fine
EDIT: RX brifters w/ BR-R785 calipers (https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8171668818)
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ohhh good find. Any estimates on release date??
L-TWOO eRX electronic groupset
(https://i.imgur.com/HQwbHgO.jpg)
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Definitely SRAM like.
They have the same pairing buttons behind the paddle.
There is a battery on the front derailleur.
It looks the rear derailleur can be charged too, but the battery looks to be hidden behind in the pictures, or very small.
I think having read somewhere SRAM had a patent on having the batteries on the derailleurs, making them the only one 100% wireless. Forcing Shimano to have a wire between the derailleurs, or there is another reason?
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Definitely SRAM like.
They have the same pairing buttons behind the paddle.
There is a battery on the front derailleur.
It looks the rear derailleur can be charged too, but the battery looks to be hidden behind in the pictures, or very small.
I think having read somewhere SRAM had a patent on having the batteries on the derailleurs, making them the only one 100% wireless. Forcing Shimano to have a wire between the derailleurs, or there is another reason?
Wheel Top is wireless and L-TWOO should be semi-wireless with a seatpost battery ala Shimano
nothing concrete yet on pricing, weight and release date
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...nothing concrete yet on pricing, weight and release date...
Price will be key. I plan to rebuild my canyon ultimate with the L-TWOO, I keep my breath !
It looked like a charger cable to me, and the front derailleur is so big, so I dreamed about batteries on derailleurs ::)
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Perhaps the battery is non-removable but needs to be charged on-bike? That could be a way around the patent.
I also look forward to more L-Twoo groupsets, but they'll have to lower the price. Currently, I can buy a GRX 600 groupset for the same price as an L-Twoo RX, so why would I take the risk...
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I also look forward to more L-Twoo groupsets, but they'll have to lower the price. Currently, I can buy a GRX 600 groupset for the same price as an L-Twoo RX, so why would I take the risk...
Yeah, at 150eur for a groupset you can take the risk, but at current prices for the hydraulic ltwoo and the propably even higher prices for electronic the risk /reward ratio is just too high...
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I also look forward to more L-Twoo groupsets, but they'll have to lower the price. Currently, I can buy a GRX 600 groupset for the same price as an L-Twoo RX, so why would I take the risk...
Where?! GRX group similar to what ltwoo offers is about twice as much from my searching.
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https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005035614566.html
-> Totals €641 including shipping and estimated VAT, but excluding additional import taxes I'll face.
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/GRX-RX600-1x11-40-Groupset-p72045/
-> Currently starts at €680, or €730 for 2x, in stock, with low shipping costs (pretty much free, as I order there regularly anyway).
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You are comparing 11sp to 12sp...
But I would not mind paying a couple 100eur extra to get a reputable brand over being a testing Guinea pig for ltwoo..
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Yeah, hadn't realized lower end grx was available on Ali. Even found some tiagra for a great deal. The times I searched grx it seemed way overpriced.
Unfortunately that other components site won't ship to US. (weeps in yankee) :'(
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You are comparing 11sp to 12sp...
I would honestly rather have 11sp than 12sp on these Chinese groupsets. They're implementing 12sp by going outside of the limits of the Shimano spec, so you have zero guarantees that the groupset will even work on your wheelset. The cassette may end up too close to the hub or spokes for it to work properly. And going to a different speed means upgrading the cassettes on my spare wheelsets and Kickr as well..
For what benefit? Are we all that bothered by the "large" jumps on our 2x11 setup? Even with my 11-34 cassettes, 11sp works fine for me. Only for 1x setups would I benefit from more speeds.
So I don't consider 12sp to be added value :)
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In fairness to L-TWOO, they also released the hydraulic groupset at their R9, 11 speed level which looks basically identical (it definitely seems to include the new front derailleur with tension adjuster looking at box photos). The only downside is that it's only slightly cheaper than the 12 speed version.
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I’m hoping they make an 11s version of the gravel group.
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I would honestly rather have 11sp than 12sp on these Chinese groupsets. They're implementing 12sp by going outside of the limits of the Shimano spec, so you have zero guarantees that the groupset will even work on your wheelset. The cassette may end up too close to the hub or spokes for it to work properly. And going to a different speed means upgrading the cassettes on my spare wheelsets and Kickr as well..
Agreed, but for an apples to apples comparison you would have to compare 12 speed to 12 speed....
I have just checked Bike24 and you can get GRX 600 1x11 shifters with the 800 series disc-brakes and a GRX 11 speed derailleur for a little over 400 eur. This would mean you can get a middle of the range GRX for about the same price as the 1x11 LTWOO set... I know what I would choose :)
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...and we have Tracevelo at it again....
https://www.youtube.com/embed/WBccKimHVXo
BR Chris
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...and we have Tracevelo at it again....
https://www.youtube.com/embed/WBccKimHVXo
BR Chris
Funny, I just swapped my LTwoo GR9 mechanical shifters for Sensah Team Pro Shimano compatible shifters on my 1x road bike. There's no problem with the shifting, the problem is that there's no way to tune the brake levers properly. My BR-005 feel way better on Sensah mechanical brakes. Also he's right about the cable routing with the GR9 RD. I even have a frame that has the cable exiting to the side as opposed to the rear and the routing is still convoluted.
My opinion now is to stick with Sensah if you want to stay with cable braking. Plus with the Team Pro shifters you can still pair them up with Shimano derailleurs.
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Definitely SRAM like.
They have the same pairing buttons behind the paddle.
There is a battery on the front derailleur.
It looks the rear derailleur can be charged too, but the battery looks to be hidden behind in the pictures, or very small.
I think having read somewhere SRAM had a patent on having the batteries on the derailleurs, making them the only one 100% wireless. Forcing Shimano to have a wire between the derailleurs, or there is another reason?
Shimano also patents changes with battery... Sram can patent "its" battery, "its" clamping and similar things, but I don't see why other brands can't use removable batteries... Shimano has its satellite buttons ( patented ones are supposed) did not Sram take out his Blips?
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Shimano also patents changes with battery... Sram can patent "its" battery, "its" clamping and similar things, but I don't see why other brands can't use removable batteries... Shimano has its satellite buttons ( patented ones are supposed) did not Sram take out his Blips?
There are strange patents like a 24mm axle between two bearings belongs to Shimano.
So came BB30 & Co, GXP, DUB,... giving us all kind of compatibility troubles.
For the wireless, it isn't clear. Plenty of legend like mine on forums.
https://bikerumor.com/sram-electronic-drivetrain-patents-show-wireless-road-mountain-bike-designs/ has a good overview but nothing on batteries.
It is strange Shimano and others are coming with semi-wireless, while they could do the same as SRAM.
Easier to setup and maintain, cheap batteries, that you can swap between components in case your derailleur is flat.
I don't see an advantage, except a longer battery life maybe, of a wired battery in the frame.
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Bikeradar had a review of the new Superstrata 3d printed road bike which has the L-TWOO GR9 mechanical group. They weren't very impressed with the ergonomics or the shifting.
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/road-bikes/superstrata-classic-review/
The review makes for interesting reading. Basically, that bike is $2800 but features incredibly cheap components, terrible geometry, and it's incredibly heavy for a road bike.
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The downshift should shifter is not located in the same place. Cannot extrapolate this to the hydraulic levers
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Bikeradar had a review of the new Superstrata 3d printed road bike which has the L-TWOO GR9 mechanical group. They weren't very impressed with the ergonomics or the shifting.
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/road-bikes/superstrata-classic-review/
The review makes for interesting reading. Basically, that bike is $2800 but features incredibly cheap components, terrible geometry, and it's incredibly heavy for a road bike.
That bike looks like it was engineered by people who don’t actually ride bikes.
And as mentioned, the thumb shifter on the mechanical group is terrible. The hydro thumb shifter is placed like campagnolo, which is why I was interested in it. I rode campy chorus on my Chinese carbon road bike back in the day.
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Bikeradar had a review of the new Superstrata 3d printed road bike which has the L-TWOO GR9 mechanical group. They weren't very impressed with the ergonomics or the shifting.
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/road-bikes/superstrata-classic-review/
The review makes for interesting reading. Basically, that bike is $2800 but features incredibly cheap components, terrible geometry, and it's incredibly heavy for a road bike.
Yeah, I saw that review. That bike is heavier than my current frankenbike which is a Giant hybrid that I've converted to be as light and fast as possible, which still isn't very light. Who on earth would pay $2800 for that?
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Supposedly the Sensah hydro group will be dropping soon. Hopefully competition will push prices down.
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It's not 3D printed it's a thermoplastic mold. Thermoplastics are always going to be heavier than laminated cf, but I don't think the odd design helps with the weight.
If this was an experimental bike from one of the major brands, BR would have given it 4 stars at least, even if it was double the price with Sora.
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Sensah electronic rim levers (https://i.imgur.com/cDQK51S.mp4)
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Sensah electronic rim levers (https://i.imgur.com/cDQK51S.mp4)
That looks pretty rough ... hopefully proto.
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That looks pretty rough ... hopefully proto.
Yes, like a 3D print. And chunky.
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I wish Sensah would improve their grip design. They're shaped like Shimano 1st generation 11 speed shifters.
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That looks pretty rough ... hopefully proto.
Looks DIY. Some wireless sensors integrated in a 3d printed Sensah lever.
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Looks like a pcb board is stuck on the shifter with red tape or plastic wrapping.
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Yeah, I like the way it looks if it is a DIY, but would not like to be in a fast descend with a DIY lever :o
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That looks pretty rough ... hopefully proto.
I don't think they'll invest in the tooling for a new Rim hood shape. The electronic rim levers are most likely just going to be an adapted version of the existing mechanical one.
The test bike pictured appears to be 1x with only the right lever electronic and the left mechanical. This suggests that the shifting logic will be FSA K-Force WE-style with a rocker switch.
(https://i.imgur.com/lcJ8td2.jpg)
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Yeah, I like the way it looks if it is a DIY, but would not like to be in a fast descend with a DIY lever :o
It's obviously a prototype, you want to 3dprint stuff/parts and just wire electronics together in a hacky way to see if things work first. Final product look and feel will be completely different, with electronics hidden and whatnot. For debugging purposes it's much easier for companies to have the electronics bare so they can replace/fix stuff quickly than having to dismantle a shifter.
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Wheel Top EDS TX prototype & potential hydraulic caliper
(https://i.imgur.com/FlC5dww.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bW5JWQa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/00XvirS.jpg)
Wheel Top EDS TX Rim lever, FD & RD weights (incl. batteries)
(https://i.imgur.com/wm5IbyW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jf6b0tu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nQ0tTVV.jpg)
future Sensah mechanical RD prototype
(https://i.imgur.com/ygqLVuH.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/BHjOYXq.png)
L-TWOO eRX FD & RD weights
(https://i.imgur.com/IOs2DWN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ab2SA7E.jpg)
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Bikeradar had a review of the new Superstrata 3d printed road bike which has the L-TWOO GR9 mechanical group. They weren't very impressed with the ergonomics or the shifting.
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/road-bikes/superstrata-classic-review/
The review makes for interesting reading. Basically, that bike is $2800 but features incredibly cheap components, terrible geometry, and it's incredibly heavy for a road bike.
$2800 for that thing??? ;D ;D ;D ;D Absolute bottom tier garbage kit on it. I'm pretty sure trace velo has put together nicer builds for less than $1500
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I see that this thread has been mostly for Chinese drivetrains, but I hadn't heard of this DT before, and it seems like a nice new modern alternative to Shimano's entry level sets. I think this is mostly for flat-bar bikes at the moment, but perhaps they'll include drop bar levers soon as well.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimano-consolidate-entry-to-mid-level-groupsets-with-new-cues-tier.html
The pricing seems very reasonable for a 1x11 system:
The highest tier groupset, the U8000 is priced at under $290 USD for a shifter, chain, cassette, and rear derailleur. With a crankset, chainring and BB it will increase the price to $451
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/shimano-cues?fbclid=IwAR2brtb7O5Rl9BW4FEkOpcMuSfwRg6jcAS89Y98nN2r7C4u0mfONIs4UfX8
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Looks really nice I must say.
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I see that this thread has been mostly for Chinese drivetrains, but I hadn't heard of this DT before, and it seems like a nice new modern alternative to Shimano's entry level sets. I think this is mostly for flat-bar bikes at the moment, but perhaps they'll include drop bar levers soon as well.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimano-consolidate-entry-to-mid-level-groupsets-with-new-cues-tier.html
The pricing seems very reasonable for a 1x11 system:
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/shimano-cues?fbclid=IwAR2brtb7O5Rl9BW4FEkOpcMuSfwRg6jcAS89Y98nN2r7C4u0mfONIs4UfX8
Its not an alternative to shimano. It IS Shimano. This is replacing Acera/Altus/Tourney.
It does look nice for the quoted prices. Now if only they made drop bar shifters for them...
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Wheel Top is wireless and L-TWOO should be semi-wireless with a seatpost battery ala Shimano
nothing concrete yet on pricing, weight and release date
It's been a minute since I've been on the forum, and this is exactly the news I was hoping to see
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expect L-TWOO eRX to be launched fairly soon
Projected pricing is 4500RMB for the levers, callipers and derailleurs. Wheel Top EDS TX should cost considerably less, quoted to start at the high 2xxx range for Rim brake and low 3xxx range for Disc brake in standard weight guises. Wheel Top is also expected to offer higher end 'ultra light' versions of their groupset to compete with eRX.
pre-production pics
(https://i.imgur.com/3fMkfET.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LNLfz3A.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8Tju2h4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PchJhoq.jpg)
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So likely ~800-900 EUR. I am afraid I would rather go to shimano 105 di2...
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It should get cheaper once they start being mass produced. Either way, it's sorely needed competition.
Campag should reveal some outrageous wheel and gruppo pricing by the looks of it this week.
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Direct mount hanger is a option for the rd. Using the narrow wide pulley from their grt. I can't figure out where a power cable goes for either derailleur. How do you charge the battery(s) what kind of battery. Will it be type c or some special port? Is the paddle 2 button? one raised with texture and other large and smooth.
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Looks pretty sweet. But I have to agree, at that price I’m passing. I do hope the price will come down, it would be cool to have a cheap option.
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Since it's electronic, is it possible to program the shifters to operate either as 12 or 11 speed? I'd be happy to stick to 11 speed if possible.
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That looks extremely nice and slick.
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I saw China Cycling's YT short and also noticed it on the pictures here. It looks like this ERX derailleur uses some sort of derailleur hanger similar to Shimano's shadow design. Does that mean this hanger will be used for both gravel & road with a fairly big cassette clearance?
https://youtube.com/shorts/a3Cz4LLMIms?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/a3Cz4LLMIms?feature=share)
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And after Tracevelo also Francis Cade managed to break the lever on the first outing...
Something wrong with the material for sure!
https://youtu.be/iR8hfaJX7FU
BR Chris
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The official press conference wrapped up yesterday and media first impressions (https://www.biketo.com/product/51087.html?all=1#page_0) are trickling in
Weights
Left & right levers
L-TWOO quoted weight: 225g (each)
Biketo measured weight: 445.1g
雪大爷单车 measured weight: 223.1g (left), 222g (right)
(https://i.imgur.com/ciRbQxa.jpg)
FD
L-TWOO quoted weight: 150g
Biketo measured weight: 139.3g
雪大爷单车 measured weight: 139.1g
(https://i.imgur.com/RSIe8GV.jpg)
RD
L-TWOO quoted weight: 270g
Biketo measured weight: 275.6g
雪大爷单车 measured weight: 275.7g
(https://i.imgur.com/xUlhTF3.jpg)
Seatpost battery & cables
L-TWOO quoted weight: 62g (battery only)
Biketo measured weight: 85.1g
雪大爷单车 measured weight: 85.2g
(https://i.imgur.com/Oiq46TR.jpg)
Pricing
Big surprise is that there is a 3500RMB eR9 Alloy to sit below the 4500RMB eRX Carbon. Disregard their mechanical naming convention because both are 12s.
(https://i.imgur.com/sCzUatC.png)
It's unclear how much heavier eR9 will be.
Testimonials
I'll briefly summarise this vlog (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV12P411Z7Ka/) from a LBS proprietor who was invited to the launch:
- He mentions that the derailleurs are not the only determinant of shifting quality. The supplied chainring, chain and cassette on the Java test bikes are not the best so it's hard to make an apples to apples comparison with the established brands
- FD sucks. He says that it feels like 'last gen SRAM' (not sure if he's referring to RED eTap A1 11s or Force AXS D1 here) where shifting under load especially uphill is difficult
- RD is fine and shifts like 'last gen Shimano' (R8070?) but has chain slap issues (not enough tension?)
- Lever buttons feel like a mouse click and aren't nearly tactile enough. Very mushy like SRAM pre-Rival/Force AXS D2.
- Due to how the inner shift button is half embedded into the leading edge of the brake lever, riding over bumps and uneven surfaces results in frequent accidental shifts
- You can see Joe Whittingham from China Cycling at 2:55 so you can look forward to his first impressions video
- He shifts up and down the entire cassette range at 3:45 and 4:05
- He says that the braking feels improved from the mechanical RX hydraulic he tried before
Function
I was mistaken by the shifting logic. As opposed to being SRAM style with a single button on either side, it's actually Shimano style with 2 buttons on each lever but laid out the other way around. Shifting layouts and derailleur adjustments are configurable in-app.
Left lever: Inner textured button shifts to big ring, outer smooth button shifts to small ring
Right lever: Inner textured button shifts to a smaller cog, outer smooth button shifts to a larger cog
(https://i.imgur.com/5STl4gt.jpg)
Direct mount hanger is a option for the rd. I can't figure out where a power cable goes for either derailleur. How do you charge the battery(s) what kind of battery.
We actually don't know if it's DM hanger capable until someone tries installing it. The callipers for example appeared to be PM at first but they're actually their own proprietary thing with different dimensions to work around patents.
The levers are semi-wireless and powered by CR2032 batteries while the FD and RD are powered by an 800mAh seatpost battery (for reference, BT-DN300 is 500mAh, EPS V3 is 720mAh and K-Force WE is 1100mAh). Charging is handled by a magnetic connector at the backside of the RD facing NDS.
(https://i.imgur.com/RJFBaUk.jpg)
Does that mean this hanger will be used for both gravel & road with a fairly big cassette clearance?
RD max capacity is still rated at 32T as opposed to the industry standard 34T. I'm sure that while an 11-34T cassette could fit, a 36T like CS-HG710-12 certainly wouldn't.
Personal thoughts
Even though they are the best 'put together' of the 3 upstart groupset manufacturers, it is still painfully obvious that this is a small operation prone to amateur mistakes. For example, L-TWOO's press conference presentation deck and website marketing material for this launch was riddled with typos and inaccuracies. They incorrectly spelled the word for brifter, the battery capacity was wrongly labelled at 850mAh and the eR9 was originally listed as 11s leading some to believe that 12s function would be software locked for eRX only.
And if you thought that getting your hands on a groupset abroad is difficult, local distribution isn't much better. For instance, they decided to setup a new WeChat account to handle all eRX direct pre-sales (unbelievably inane imo) which would quickly be disabled for overactivity because they used a personal account as opposed to an enterprise account. Lastly, they decided to respond to people who felt that the 4500RMB pricetag was too steep by joking that it was a more of a 'you' problem (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1e24y1u76V/) (1:55) [EDIT: now cut from the video...I guess they aren't that tone deaf] so don't expect price cuts any time soon. However, Chinese Shimano resellers have already responded by slashing the price of R7170 'small kits' so we may well see a price war unfold in the future.
Misc
L-TWOO has also started supplying Hydraulic R7 Alloy 10s to OEMs
(https://i.imgur.com/uAdh9BS.jpg)
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Thanks for the info @StiffWeenies! Reading the comments in the media press release, it seems even the domestic cycling community want cheaper groupsets, but not necessarily cheaper quality. It's good to see a domestic push to improve as well while being price competitive.
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Wow a lot of info thanks stiffweenies.
Jonathan think I replied to your yt comment before seeing all the updated info. So I'm probably wrong with that comment.
As for the groupset. I've jumped on the mechanical groupsets fast and even frames. This is going to be a huge wait and see. Simply for after purchase support will be huge. I can rig or modify with mechanical but with electronic not as simple. Most issues would fall in the wait for support and replacement. I stopped talking about the rx cause I felt like I was r&d or support. They want to offer products with no guidance. Really feels like you only get help when someone else figures it out for them. To be fair it's not only l twoo the China products with crap support isn't going to fly with me anymore.
til I see consistent consumer happiness I cannot jump on more expensive products. I see a bunch of high priced products but I just can't for now.
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Wow a lot of info thanks stiffweenies.
Jonathan think I replied to your yt comment before seeing all the updated info. So I'm probably wrong with that comment.
As for the groupset. I've jumped on the mechanical groupsets fast and even frames. This is going to be a huge wait and see. Simply for after purchase support will be huge. I can rig or modify with mechanical but with electronic not as simple. Most issues would fall in the wait for support and replacement. I stopped talking about the rx cause I felt like I was r&d or support. They want to offer products with no guidance. Really feels like you only get help when someone else figures it out for them. To be fair it's not only l twoo the China products with crap support isn't going to fly with me anymore.
til I see consistent consumer happiness I cannot jump on more expensive products. I see a bunch of high priced products but I just can't for now.
Good call. There is absolutely a gamble in playing this game and I wouldn't recommend anyone who simply wants something that 'just works' become a guinea pig for these small companies, especially when international customers have to pay a markup on top of navigating language barriers and awful customer support.
L-TWOO and others have the mentality that they can just fix problems on the fly without taking a reputational hit which is just a recipe for disaster as we've seen from the Seka/Cycling100 debacle. The sad thing is that they'll only consider doing something about it when a big influencer calls them out.
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Looks like one to try in 6-12 months once they've worked out the kinks - and probably reduced price.
Surprising to hear Cade praising the brakes.
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The official press conference wrapped up yesterday and media first impressions (https://www.biketo.com/product/51087.html?all=1#page_0) are trickling in
Thanks for the info!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkfH2gt7e98
Here the presentation video of the L-twoo elec
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkfH2gt7e98
Here the presentation video of the L-twoo elec
Call me crazy, but I think they'd have better spent their cringe inducing CGI animé short budget on further testing and prototyping, so the first iterations work better ...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLrLcwHoRCE
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Utter cringe aside, I suspect that Sergey is the same guy pictured in this article (http://www.biketo.com/news/39717.html) from Nov '18.
Crazy to consider how 4.5 years ago, the company was showing their first road groupset in the R7 10s (https://www.biketo.com/industry/39548.html) at Taipei Cycle '18. Back then, L-TWOO was just coasting along in a secondary position behind Sensah. It was only when the company received Series B financing from Hillhouse in Feb '21 and Series C financing from SCGC in May '22 that R&D investment kicked into high gear. Hopefully this VC money gravy train (https://m.pedaily.cn/vc/company/17856.html) doesn't run out anytime soon because the alternative is stagnation like Sensah who've seemingly raised no money (https://m.pedaily.cn/vc/company/42277.html) since Dec '18.
(https://i.imgur.com/dmo5Uzb.jpg)
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This actually gives me more appreciation for LTwoo considering the pace of their development, but maybe they need to be less ambitious and make sure every product release is rock solid. Jumping straight into electronic groupsets without fully ironing out the kinks from their other product lines leaves a bad impression. For example, the carbon levers snapping on the hydraulic levers and/or not fixing the lack of drop shifting on the mechanical shifters should be fixed. What's the point of having all these product releases if they riddled with flaws?
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This actually gives me more appreciation for LTwoo considering the pace of their development, but maybe they need to be less ambitious and make sure every product release is rock solid. Jumping straight into electronic groupsets without fully ironing out the kinks from their other product lines leaves a bad impression. For example, the carbon levers snapping on the hydraulic levers and/or not fixing the lack of drop shifting on the mechanical shifters should be fixed. What's the point of having all these product releases if they riddled with flaws?
Think of them like a startup company. They're rushing to be first so they can corner a portion of the market that is too small to be shared with Sensah and Wheel Top. The latter has been taking their sweet time (https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3523.msg37758.html#msg37758) but it's not like their MTB offering was flawless either. This aggressive approach leads to a vicious cycle where YouTubers and influencers who are also fighting to be the first for views end up buying those heavily marked up sketchy listings of first batch units that inevitably happen to be the most defective (e.g. Trace Velo).
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Think of them like a startup company. They're rushing to be first so they can corner a portion of the market that is too small to be shared with Sensah and Wheel Top. The latter has been taking their sweet time (https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3523.msg37758.html#msg37758) but it's not like their MTB offering was flawless either. This aggressive approach leads to a vicious cycle where YouTubers and influencers who are also fighting to be the first for views end up buying those heavily marked up sketchy listings of first batch units that inevitably happen to be the most defective (e.g. Trace Velo).
Yes, the influencers now appear to be more like beta testers. Difficult for them too because it's hard to get excited about half-baked products - the excitement tends to be more in the possibilities with refinement than in the products available now. The RX groupset was a good example of this - seems like there's potential following refinement, but there's no way I'd buy them as is right now.
For electronic, big steps in reliability would have to be made before I could consider it. Given the lack of availability of spares locally, I have no desire to be stuck waiting 3-4 weeks for a part to ship if something goes wrong. With mechanical it's a much less risky proposition given it can be swapped with Shimano.
Also haven't heard any talk yet about the software, which is a little concerning.
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LTwoo has an app already for use on their MTB wireless shift controller. It's called the "Blueprint Electric" app and it's available at least for Android, but I haven't checked yet for iOS. I'm guessing this will be the app they'll use or at least something similar.
LTWOO Ae 3-13S MTB Bicycle Speed Controller Kit:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805084047033.html (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805084047033.html)
BTW - This controller kit is very similar to the Archer Components RD controller:
https://archercomponents.com/ (https://archercomponents.com/)
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revised EDS OX
(https://i.imgur.com/5epRlmN.jpg)
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Utter cringe aside, I suspect that Sergey is the same guy pictured in this article (http://www.biketo.com/news/39717.html) from Nov '18.
Crazy to consider how 4.5 years ago, the company was showing their first road groupset in the R7 10s (https://www.biketo.com/industry/39548.html) at Taipei Cycle '18. Back then, L-TWOO was just coasting along in a secondary position behind Sensah. It was only when the company received Series B financing from Hillhouse in Feb '21 and Series C financing from SCGC in May '22 that R&D investment kicked into high gear. Hopefully this VC money gravy train (https://m.pedaily.cn/vc/company/17856.html) doesn't run out anytime soon because the alternative is stagnation like Sensah who've seemingly raised no money (https://m.pedaily.cn/vc/company/42277.html) since Dec '18.
(https://i.imgur.com/dmo5Uzb.jpg)
Hopefully they got him a rather better workstation setup by now.
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I don't think anyone is expecting the new LTWOO groupset to be as good as Di2/eTap. However, like most budget alternatives, customers seem to still expect 80-90% performance/quality for only half the price. Time and time again this expectation only leads to buyer's remorse.
It's the very reason I prefer a 2nd-hand Shimano Ultegra/105 mechanical groupset versus the stuff from both LTWOO and Sensah. Small moving pieces and components leave more room for failure than, say, a static Chinese bike frame.
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As seen on the presentation website and making the yuan-euro conversion... and except for errors
prices; eRX (carbon parts) 4.999 Yuan= 678€
eR9 (no carbon parts) 3.999 Yuan= 542€
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er9 looks much better than erx, Chinese still need to work on their industrial design, i was thinking to buy cheaper version only because of look.
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Taiwan's TRP (/ Tektro) releases new EVO 7sp DH and 12sp MTB groupsets.
https://bikerumor.com/trp-evo-mountain-bike-drivetrains-hit-the-trails/
Looks really well designed. If I wanted mechanical MTB 12sp, I'd give it a try over Shimano.
SRAM's new stuff looks batshit, frankly, and the pricing on XX SL is certainly going to be batshit crazy ... they've increased PM crankset pricing by 50%.
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$2200 before taxes in the USA for XXSL. Its not just the prices, the naming convention is crazy too.
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Wow, thats crazy amounts of money. And I dont like the idea of the rear mech being direct mount either.
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Wow, thats crazy amounts of money. And I dont like the idea of the rear mech being direct mount either.
I've seen an MBR video where they show how they did hit the frame/derailleur many times.And talk about a race Nino Shurter crashed on that side, but was able to continue the race without the need to straighten the hanger.
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I found ER9 groupset weight, it's 1500gr, the info was found on their website http://www.ltwoo.com/h-pd-1772.html (http://www.ltwoo.com/h-pd-1772.html)
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China cycling did a nice weight comparison of the groupsets, so 1500 doesn’t sound too bad for the price.
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I've seen an MBR video where they show how they did hit the frame/derailleur many times.And talk about a race Nino Shurter crashed on that side, but was able to continue the race without the need to straighten the hanger.
PeakTorque recently put out an analysis on it. Personally I am with him. Just because it's strong doesn't mean it should be. A hanger is ~$30. A carbon dropout will cost you the whole frame. And I also agree with his point that it further challenges manufacturing tolerances at the dropout, which we've seen time and time again is not something manufacturers do well.
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I've seen an MBR video where they show how they did hit the frame/derailleur many times.And talk about a race Nino Shurter crashed on that side, but was able to continue the race without the need to straighten the hanger.
I am confused by this reply, you are in favor of hanger or direct mount?
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More groupset....wireless for rim brake, Wheeltop EDS
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Nice. So that Wheeltop EDS road setup should work with those who prefer to use cable disc brakes.
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Sensah hydraulic, the hoods are just...
(https://i.imgur.com/ZOXRDt1.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/o3cFvOR.jpg)
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Yeah I'd say they are trying to stick to the single lever action. Might explain the long hoods. They might be limited for positioning the hydro and gears to function off the single lever.
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Sensah hydraulic, the hoods are just...
Maybe they subcontracted their design / prototyping to a dildo factory?
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Maybe they use a 1:2 scaled bike for testing?
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Production version of the Sensah levers at Shanghai bike show
(https://i.imgur.com/q20JNsk.jpg)
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Production version of the Sensah levers at Shanghai bike show
Nice! Hopefully the continue to make Sensah Shimano compatible shifters with hydraulic. That would probably be a big seller as well.
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Is there any word on when Sensah plans to get the hydraulic groups to market?
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Im going to the shanghai bike show tomorrow! Ill see if i can find out ;D
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Is there any word on when Sensah plans to get the hydraulic groups to market?
check here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9W0bxiZ8Bk
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I'm quite busy these days so no time to do a full write up of the Shanghai exhibition
Concerning Wheel Top, it's a total flop from the few testimonials I skimmed over
Shifting is slow, clunky and unresponsive (especially FD) which is odd because their MTB RD apparently shifts quite fast now. Batteries are still 'removable' but now screwed in place(?) due to patent restrictions. Build quality sucks and the general feeling is not as premium as eRX. July target launch for the Rim brake model is ambitious and unrealistic.
Sensah hydraulic levers feel weak and their electronic groupset has been pushed back for the nth time.
L-TWOO is still by far the most promising.
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Chain dropped right after i took this video lol
https://youtu.be/dlaYFFxTPUw
eRX not looking so good either
https://youtu.be/S1udQCuU1Dc
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Sensah print already coming off the levers... Had the same thing happen to mine...
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Chain dropped right after i took this video lol
https://youtu.be/dlaYFFxTPUw
eRX not looking so good either
https://youtu.be/S1udQCuU1Dc
At least LTwoo isn't alone when it comes to bad electronic FDs!
https://youtu.be/Tsk3zAZyLaQ (https://youtu.be/Tsk3zAZyLaQ)
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Sensah print already coming off the levers... Had the same thing happen to mine...
I have my Sensah Empire PRO in 3rd season, I have made total of 15.000 km... Printing on carbon break levers is as good as new..
But I must admit something...Sensah in my case is reberended to "Retospec", the brandname in use by my bike supplier...
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My sensah shifter logo and grip are worn. That isn't the biggest issue for me. I have them 2x with srx rear derailleur on my gravel bike. I have the shifters mounted inward on my bars. This causes shifting when braking. This isn't fun having the front click to small ring and you not know it til the bottom. I'd suggest keeping the hoods as inline as possible to stop the shifting when braking.
I wonder if their hydros have the same issue.
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https://youtu.be/Ag-5GaOBZ28
China cycling has posted first video Using Sensah Hidraulic road/grawel set
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An little interesting rumor floating around: apparently Shimano's auto-trim patent will expire at the end of this year
No word on synchro shifting unfortunately
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Didn't Ltwoo already have auto-trimming but had to disable it in an update because of patents?
Synchro shifting is the RD shifting 1-2 gears when you shift the FD to compensate right? Don't all 3 big manufacturers do it already?
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Didn't Ltwoo already have auto-trimming but had to disable it in an update because of patents?
yes, from the last Trace Velo video, on LTwoo ERX, he mentions the first few versions had the auto-trim, but the newest ones had it removed
I suppose when the patent expires they can just add it back by firmware update
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https://www.bikeradar.com/news/microshift-sword/
Fresh release and from the pictures it looks excellent to me. The levers look very comfortable (rubber aside) and they truly understand gear ratios. 11-38 / 11-48 with 48-31 / 46-29 chainrings. Aesthetically this is my favorite groupset yet I think.
Can't wait for reviews especially for the chainrings, if they're light enough I would consider swapping my GRX 800 crankset. Wish they would do higher end stuff if they can make groupsets that good on paper
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TRP's Hywire brifters meant for Pinion were shown at Eurobike and look the absolute business. Surely they'd make a proper road/gravel groupset too?
(https://i.imgur.com/NyKbEVb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sLN605C.jpg)
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/microshift-sword/
Now that's a welcome development. I thought that Microshift as a company was simply coasting on previous successes like the Advent X which was really just a hodgepodge reworking of their older products. Hopefully those Sword brifters get repurposed for road 2x11/12 in the future.
EDIT: I also noticed that the Sword 10s RD shares pull ratios with Advent X 10s and by extension, Advent 9s. Sword brifters paired with this super short cage (https://www.microshift.com/models/rd-m6195s/) Advent 9s RD could be an interesting combo.
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TRP's Hywire brifters meant for Pinion were shown at Eurobike and look the absolute business. Surely they'd make a proper road/gravel groupset too?
(https://i.imgur.com/NyKbEVb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sLN605C.jpg)
Now that's a welcome development. I thought that Microshift as a company was simply coasting on previous successes like the Advent X which was really just a hodgepodge reworking of their older products. Hopefully those Sword brifters get repurposed for road 2x11/12 in the future.
I can't tell what they are at all. Hydraulic and electronic paddles?
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I can't tell what they are at all. Hydraulic and electronic paddles?
Hydraulic braking, electronic shifting!
Even if they don't make their own groupset, I'd still appreciate a proper 3rd party brifter with satellite shifting function (http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3523.msg34405.html#msg34405).
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Trace Velo's first impressions of Sensah hydraulic are very good:
https://youtube.com/shorts/g7pjQhc-iRI?feature=share
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eRX pricing is getting slashed in China, at least unofficially
I'm now seeing listings in the sub-3.9K RMB range, down from 4.5K retail
XDS will soon come out with the AD500, an eR9 equipped complete bike priced at 7K all-in. The bike itself is pretty garbage (frame, QR fork, integrated cockpit & aero seatpost are all made of alloy...) and the build is just a dressed up AD350 (R7 Hydraulic) but with the eR9 retailing at 3.5K, it really makes you wonder about their margins...
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eRX pricing is getting slashed in China, at least unofficially
I'm now seeing listings in the sub-3.9K RMB range, down from 4.5K retail
XDS will soon come out with the AD500, an eR9 equipped complete bike priced at 7K all-in. The bike itself is pretty garbage (frame, QR fork, integrated cockpit & aero seatpost are all made of alloy...) and the build is just a dressed up AD350 (R7 Hydraulic) but with the eR9 retailing at 3.5K, it really makes you wonder about their margins...
It seems western YT'ers seem more excited about the ERX than they do in China, but the initial reviews are looking positive it seems. Also any word when the 1x ER9 shifters/RD will be available?
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Hydraulic braking, electronic shifting!
Even if they don't make their own groupset, I'd still appreciate a proper 3rd party brifter with satellite shifting function (http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3523.msg34405.html#msg34405).
Didn't TRP already try, partnering with someone, only for the project to get stuck in development hell and then they fell out and parted ways.
It's amazing that TRP haven't done it yet, frankly ... hopefully soon. Their new mechanical MTB gruppo looks great.
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Luke first on the scene as usual.
https://youtu.be/CYEHk0c4M70
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Luke first on the scene as usual.
https://youtu.be/CYEHk0c4M70
After watching his video with all these pre-production issues and the ugly silver lever caps, I'm seriously not interested. I'm someone who likes Sensah style shifting as well.
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I'm not sure about their IceTech on a budget rotors ... Shimano's were bad enough until the latest gen released last year (CLT900 are great).
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It seems western YT'ers seem more excited about the ERX than they do in China, but the initial reviews are looking positive it seems. Also any word when the 1x ER9 shifters/RD will be available?
105 Di2 has been discounted to the point that it's a no brainer for the price conscious while guys with money won't dabble in anything less than what they already have.
The consensus is that while shifting accuracy is spot on, manufacturing accuracy still needs work. Some complaints I've come across include poor quality pulley wheels making noises with chain quick links and unrefined ergonomics (they just crudely made the hoods as small as they could without paying attention to shaping).
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At an equal price point I'm leaning towards LTWOO more and more. It is the more consumer friendly choice on many aspects with the ability to change speeds, trimming individual cogs meaning whatever cassette you fancy, no petty locking features on a competitor's head unit, etc. The only negatives I've read are quality control and some minor software issues that can be fixed overnight I'm hopeful it can beat shimano in a not so distant future
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105 Di2 has been discounted to the point that it's a no brainer for the price conscious while guys with money won't dabble in anything less than what they already have.
The consensus is that while shifting accuracy is spot on, manufacturing accuracy still needs work. Some complaints I've come across include poor quality pulley wheels making noises with chain quick links and unrefined ergonomics (they just crudely made the hoods as small as they could without paying attention to shaping).
Any reason why the LTwoo hoods are so tight? Once LTwoo went hydraulic, the shifter hoods are near impossible to remove.
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I was just looking at State Bike Co.'s new cargo cages, and noticed that the preview pictures show Sensah's hydraulic brifters with an SRX rear derailleur. Currently complete builds are only available with mechanical 11 speed SRX. I can't tell by the preview images if the new configuration is 12 speed or 11 speed though.
https://www.statebicycle.com/collections/bike-bottles-cages/products/state-bicycle-co-desert-cargo-cage
(https://www.statebicycle.com/cdn/shop/files/StateBicycleCo.-DesertCargoCage-4.jpg)
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If I would have to guess based on the pictures, I would say 11 speed.
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I posted this in the other AliEx deals thread, but I'll post it here as well.
Sensah Empire HRD hydraulic groupset now available on AliEx:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805775443558.html (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805775443558.html)
Initial price was $286 USD and now it's been raised to $299.
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/S0b17e01a29dc4510a87a8638fcd1a41d5.jpg)
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Any info on sensah having an 11 or 10 speed version? Would be a huge miss if they don't imo.
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Any info on sensah having an 11 or 10 speed version? Would be a huge miss if they don't imo.
I'm hoping they do their entire Shimano compatible line as hydraulic + carbon levers. Sensah mechanical shifting is much better than LTwoo. In fact they wouldn't even need to do an electronic groupset if they just focus on creating an entire hydraulic lineup. Though I'm wondering if Sensah even has the financial resources to retool their factory to handle such an undertaking? It seems like they were struggling just to release the HRD Empire groupset.
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Looks like an updated version of the Sensah hydro group is out. Well, shifters look a little different at least.
Just found this amazing item on AliExpress. Check it out! $274.36 50％ Off | SENSAH EMPIRE PRO HRD Disc 2x12s Road Hydraulic Disc Brake Groupset, Hydraulic Disc Alloy 12s
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqoNIBy
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L-TWOO eGR incoming... (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1m94y1s7x4/)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZagFff2.jpg)
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I took a screen shot of the upcoming gravel groupset. It makes more sense they opened up software to accept 10 speed cassettes for 1x. This could also be fun for those looking to build a 1x road bike as well. I hate to say it, but Sensah looks like they're falling way behind. I messaged the Sensah store and they don't seem to have any plans to offer more options for their HRD groupset. You'd think they'd at least supply it with the SRX rear derailleur as an option, just to get their hydraulic shifters out there.
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Ltwoo electric gravel groupset does look very interesting, as long as it works with Sram's 10-44t cassette.
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I took a screen shot of the upcoming gravel groupset. It makes more sense they opened up software to accept 10 speed cassettes for 1x. This could also be fun for those looking to build a 1x road bike as well. I hate to say it, but Sensah looks like they're falling way behind. I messaged the Sensah store and they don't seem to have any plans to offer more options for their HRD groupset. You'd think they'd at least supply it with the SRX rear derailleur as an option, just to get their hydraulic shifters out there.
I'd guess the LTWOO road stuff will get significantly updated too, given how much slicker this gravel stuff looks.
Re: 10 / 11 / 12s support, does LTWOO eRX already support 11s mode? If the new gravel stuff or potentially updated eRX works well, I'd be sorely tempted to try it out in 11s 2x, since 11s cassette and chain options are so much more numerous and flexible than 12s.
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Besides the new gravel RD, the shift buttons (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1K94y1x7nu/) and brake calipers have also been updated
obviously the usual caveats go with anything new they release, but the pace of iterations is really incredible
just a couple months ago the gravel RD looked like this
(https://i.imgur.com/SA70IrJ.jpg)
bonus, footage (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1484y1w7bc) of early eRX prototype
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Besides the new gravel RD, the shift buttons (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1K94y1x7nu/) and brake calipers have also been updated
obviously the usual caveats go with anything new they release, but the pace of iterations is really incredible
just a couple months ago the gravel RD looked like this
(https://i.imgur.com/SA70IrJ.jpg)
also, bonus footage (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1484y1w7bc) of early eRX prototype
Will those shift buttons also appear on the ERX?
I remember awhile back you posted a website detailing LTwoo's financial investments. Unfortunately that site has a regional lockout now, but I found it interesting one of LTwoo's investors were US based.
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Will those shift buttons also appear on the ERX?
I remember awhile back you posted a website detailing LTwoo's financial investments. Unfortunately that site has a regional lockout now, but I found it interesting one of LTwoo's investors were US based.
You can try this site (https://www.qichamao.com/orgcompany/searchitemdtl/ea587ea0887df2f31d9e5a404f15cef6.html) instead
No American shareholders to my knowledge, but some Chinese investors have significant global presence and financial heft (Hillhouse)
Those shift buttons and calipers will absolutely make their way to eRX/eR9 as running changes, they're a small company that can't afford to maintain many SKUs. Same reason why the mechanical hydraulic brifters are built so cheaply: the same shifter bodies and plastic gear levers are shared all the way from R5 9s to RX 12s.
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L-TWOO released the electronic gravel groupset "eGR".
https://youtu.be/jw4dKLXRYsE?si=AsDiMhXNc0egwoJw (https://youtu.be/jw4dKLXRYsE?si=AsDiMhXNc0egwoJw)
So who's planning to buy first? ;D
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The hydraulic calipers also look slightly different. Also I'm curious why LTwoo continues to use this adapter solution for their hydraulic calipers? I'm just wondering what patent are they avoiding using this design?
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Odd to see a maximum cassette size of 46 teeth rather than the 50-52 teeth that is common on many 12 speed 1-by cassettes. I expect the ideal match will be the Microspline 10-45 cassette
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Odd to see a maximum cassette size of 46 teeth rather than the 50-52 teeth that is common on many 12 speed 1-by cassettes. I expect the ideal match will be the Microspline 10-45 cassette
I don't really see the point going electronic for 1x gravel. I think I'm more excited for the mechanical Shimano GRX 812 12 speed RD. The 1x derailleur does 10-51t in-spec. If it as the same pull ratio as 11 speed GRX, you should be able to run that on both 10/11 speed GRX.
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Any info on sensah having an 11 or 10 speed version? Would be a huge miss if they don't imo.
Just spotted Sensah Empire HRD 11 speed for sale on Aliexpress. Price is $249 for shifters, disc brake calipers, and derailleurs. Looks promising!
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805841249421.html (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805841249421.html)
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I don't really see the point going electronic for 1x gravel. I think I'm more excited for the mechanical Shimano GRX 812 12 speed RD. The 1x derailleur does 10-51t in-spec. If it as the same pull ratio as 11 speed GRX, you should be able to run that on both 10/11 speed GRX.
Well, to my mind the theory is that it should be relatively cheap compared to mechanical - there's one less shifter and one less derailleur to deal with. That said, the mechanical tiers cost the same amount (that is, GR9 = R9 in cost on AliExpress).
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Just spotted Sensah Empire HRD 11 speed for sale on Aliexpress. Price is $249 for shifters, disc brake calipers, and derailleurs. Looks promising!
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805841249421.html (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805841249421.html)
Thanks for that - I've done a little groupset comparison for anyone interested in the current state of the market for hydraulic groupsets. I have used official store prices for Ltwoo and Sensah. All items are shifters, brakes and derailleurs unless indicated otherwise. All prices include postage where relevant (to Australia - not sure how it differs for other markets).
Mechanical
| Groupset Name | USD | Link |
|------------------------|------|-----------------------------------------------------------|
| Ltwoo R7 | 240 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005708638779.html |
| Ltwoo R9 | 265 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005097651417.html |
| Ltwoo RX | 287 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005035653680.html |
|------------------------|------|-----------------------------------------------------------|
| Sensah Empire HRD | 247 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006027398876.html |
| Sensah Empire Pro HRD | 297 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005961758310.html |
|------------------------|------|-----------------------------------------------------------|
| Shimano Tiagra 4700 | 306 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005767481889.html |
| Shimano 105 R7020 | 430 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003723174953.html |
| Shimano Ultegra R8020 | 530 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003723174953.html |
Electronic:
| Groupset Name | USD | Link | Notes |
|-----------------------|------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|----------------|
| Ltwoo ER9 | 514 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005666489670.html | |
| Ltwoo ERX | 656 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005666489670.html | |
|-----------------------|------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|----------------|
| Shimano 105 R7170 | 767 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005766195381.html | |
| Shimano Ultegra R8170 | 1435 | https://r2-bike.com/SHIMANO-Ultegra-Di2-R8170-Complete-Group-2x12-Crank-Length-1725-mm-50-34T-SPECIAL-OFFER | Full set |
|-----------------------|------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|----------------|
| Sram Rival 2x | 697 | https://r2-bike.com/SRAM-Rival-eTap-AXS-Road-Disc-HRD-Flat-Mount-Road-Upgrade-Kit-2x12 | |
| Sram Force D1 2x | 742 | https://r2-bike.com/SRAM-Force-eTap-AXS-Road-Disc-HRD-Flat-Mount-Upgrade-Kit-2-speed | With rotor |
Gravel:
| Groupset Name | USD | Link | Notes |
|-----------------------|------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----------------|
| Ltwoo GR7 1x10 | 208 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005754630103.html | |
| Ltwoo GR9 1x11 | 265 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005148057429.html | |
| Ltwoo GRT 1x12 | 287 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005048297285.html | |
|-----------------------|------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----------------|
| SRAM Apex XPLR 1x12 | 554 | Multiple links, see notes | Parts separate |
| SRAM Rival XPLR 1x12 | 770 | https://r2-bike.com/SRAM-Mullet-Rival-eTap-GX-Eagle-AXS-Gravel-Upgrade-Kit_1 | |
|-----------------------|------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----------------|
| Shimano GRX 400 2x10 | 346 | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005354064020.html | |
| Shimano GRX 810 1x11 | 789 | https://r2-bike.com/SHIMANO-GRX-Gravel-Group-RX810-Hydraulic-Disc-Brakes-1x11-42-Teeth | Full set |
| Shimano GRX 820 1x12 | 1122 | https://r2-bike.com/SHIMANO-GRX-820-Complete-Group-1x12-Crank-1725-mm-42-Teeth | Full set |
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The hydraulic calipers also look slightly different. Also I'm curious why LTwoo continues to use this adapter solution for their hydraulic calipers? I'm just wondering what patent are they avoiding using this design?
It is possible that L-twoo is trying to avoid any potential patent issues, considering that the paperback base belongs to Shimano's patent.
This time, L-twoo has also redesigned the caliper and promotes it as an integrated caliper.
可能是因为L-twoo在试图避免任何可能潜在的专利问题，毕竟平装底座是属于禧玛诺的专利。
这一次L-twoo还重新设计了卡钳，宣传称为一体式卡钳。
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Besides the new gravel RD, the shift buttons (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1K94y1x7nu/) and brake calipers have also been updated
obviously the usual caveats go with anything new they release, but the pace of iterations is really incredible
just a couple months ago the gravel RD looked like this
(https://i.imgur.com/SA70IrJ.jpg)
bonus, footage (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1484y1w7bc) of early eRX prototype
I was amazed to see a picture from Baidu Tieba on a forum located across the ocean, and it was even a picture I personally uploaded. The feeling is truly extraordinary.
Are you perhaps a member of Tieba as well?
我竟然能在一个远在大洋彼岸的论坛里看到来自百度贴吧的图片，甚至还是我自己亲自上传的，这样的感觉真的很奇妙
你不会还是贴吧吧友吧？
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Do you work for LTwoo Fabio?
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Do you work for LTwoo Fabio?
No, I only know the staff of L-twoo, so I have the opportunity to see news and pictures of engineering prototypes. Also L-twoo doesn't mind the leak of such pictures. Just like StiffWeenies who posted earlier, we are all ordinary bicycle enthusiasts. The only difference is that we are Chinese, so we can access this kind of news earlier.
No，我只是和蓝图的工作人员认识，因此可以有机会看到工程样机的消息和图片，蓝图也并不介意这类图片的流出。就像前面发帖的StiffWeenies一样，我们都是普通的自行车玩家。只不过因为我们是中国人所以可以更早接触到这类新闻。
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I have read your name somewhere else before but can't recall where exactly. May be weighweenies? In any case, glad you are here and hopefully providing more insider tidbits like SW.
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Perhaps it was on the forum ridinggravel or on Reddit. I use the ID "@烂薄荷_" within China, which means "rotten mint". Although I'm not as professional as the OP, and my comments might be more subjective, I am indeed willing to share these fresh news with everyone.
也许是Gravel论坛或者是reddit。我在国内用“烂薄荷_"这个ID，意思是”腐烂的薄荷“。不过我没有OP那么专业，说的话可能也会更加主观，但是我确实乐意向大家分享这些新鲜的消息。
I have read your name somewhere else before but can't recall where exactly. May be weighweenies? In any case, glad you are here and hopefully providing more insider tidbits like SW.
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I would like to share some information I have about the L-twoo eGR with everyone. The basic performance parameters, I believe, do not need further elaboration as they are clearly stated on the official L-twoo website(https://www.ltwoo.com/ (https://www.ltwoo.com/)). However, the technical manual may not have been translated into English yet.
The comprehensive distribution of the eGR to the consumer market is likely to wait until early next year, and it may take even longer for overseas users. This could be due to the logic that L-twoo needs to have enough OEM orders (orders from complete bicycle manufacturers, such as XDS or TRINX) before being able to cater to retail consumers.
The eGR does not differentiate between aluminum alloy and carbon fiber versions. eGR is the only name, with an aluminum alloy handlebar and a carbon fiber rear derailleur cage.
The eGR's dual-control levers are not exactly the same as the eRX/eR9. L-twoo has modified the button shape of the eGR, making it larger and easier to touch. They have also improved the button feel, enhanced the button's travel, and improved tactile feedback.
(Here is a video showing the feel):
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1K94y1x7nu/?share_source=copy_web&vd_source=6df32e378224c6b777e3a0681a05b579 (https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1K94y1x7nu/?share_source=copy_web&vd_source=6df32e378224c6b777e3a0681a05b579)
From the renderings and weight analysis, it appears that the left handlebar of the eGR still has buttons and can control the rear derailleur.
[One speculation: Perhaps both the left and right handlebars of the eGR can simultaneously control the same rear derailleur, and I hope there will be an app for customizing the buttons. This would make the eGR have a very interesting shifting logic, such as using the left hand exclusively for downshifting, with the slim buttons on the right for upshifting and the larger buttons for downshifting.]
In the future, L-twoo may continue to develop derivative products for the eGR, such as an electronic dropper seatpost. This could be the reason why the left hand of the eGR still retains its buttons.
L-twoo's ambitions go beyond this, and in the near future, they may release a completely wireless MTB electronic shifter, similar to what Wheel-Top and SRAM have done.
我想向大家分享一下我所掌握的有关L-twoo eGR的一些消息
基本的性能参数我觉得不需要再赘述了，全新的L-twoo官网上都有写明，可能只有技术手册还没有被翻译成英文
eGR对C端的全面铺货大概率要等到明年年初，而对于海外用户来说可能需要更久
这其中的逻辑可能是因为L-twoo需要先拥有足够的OE订单（来自整车厂的订单，例如xds、千里达之类的），才有能力去应对零售消费者
eGR不区分铝合金/碳纤维版本。eGR就是唯一的名称，其手柄为铝合金材质，后拨链器笼为碳纤维材质
eGR和eRX/eR9的双控手柄并非完全一样，L-twoo修改了eGR的按键形状，让它变得更大更容易触摸，同时还改进了按键手感，加强了按键的行程和触感反馈
从渲染图和重量分析，eGR的左手柄依然有按键，并且可以对后拨进行控制
【一种猜测：也许eGR的左右手柄都可以同时控制同一个后拨链器，并且我希望可以用app对按键进行自定义，这样就会让eGR有非常有趣的变速逻辑（例如左手全部是降档，而右手的细长按键用来升档，粗大按键用来降档）】
L-twoo在未来可能会继续开发eGR的衍生产品，例如电子升降座杆，这可能是eGR左手没有被取消按键的原因
L-twoo的野心不止于此，在不久的将来应该会发布纯无线的MTB电子变速器，就像Wheel-Top和SRAM做的那样
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Regarding Sensah hydraulic grouupset: you can buy just the shifters with brake calipers https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLZTy1u, which opens interesting options when paired with either roador gravel/mtb derailleurs. Yes, there's gravel ready Ltwoo groupset, but I am not aure about their mechanical shifters ergonomics - I have rim brake Ltwoo groupset and the thumb shifter is pain in the anus to reach
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I indeed think keeping the left buttons for various purposes (front derrailleur which some gravel people prefer over 1x systems, dropper post, down/up-shifting like in sram, converting from gravel to road and viceversa just changing derrailleurs, chainring and wheels, etc etc) is the way to go. Eager to see it working :)
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Regarding Sensah hydraulic grouupset: you can buy just the shifters with brake calipers https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLZTy1u, which opens interesting options when paired with either roador gravel/mtb derailleurs. Yes, there's gravel ready Ltwoo groupset, but I am not aure about their mechanical shifters ergonomics - I have rim brake Ltwoo groupset and the thumb shifter is pain in the anus to reach
Ltwoo mechanical and hyrdro thumb levers are vastly different fyi. I can easily reach thumb shifter from hoods or drops.
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Regarding Sensah hydraulic grouupset: you can buy just the shifters with brake calipers https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLZTy1u, which opens interesting options when paired with either roador gravel/mtb derailleurs. Yes, there's gravel ready Ltwoo groupset, but I am not aure about their mechanical shifters ergonomics - I have rim brake Ltwoo groupset and the thumb shifter is pain in the anus to reach
I tried LTwoo hydraulic and hated the ergos. I'm more interested in the Sensah HRD and actually like the shift logic, but I'm wondering if they'll cover the Team Pro / Shimano compatible shifter line-up to hydraulic as well? I'd rather just stick to Shimano derailleurs which would open things up to 105/Ultegra/GRX, etc.
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It’s juste the pace at which market moves and investors expected returns. It’s quick and easy to get a product that works 95% of the time, let the early adopters be the beta testers. Look at Tesla, and to a certain extent, bmw/VAG/Mercedes, they are not what they used to be in term of dependability because of that forced development pace…
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Perhaps ltwoo should focus on getting erx/er9 right before releasing other products. Maybe this is just the difference between our German and the Chinese mindset. It seems like Chinese products are in a perpetual alpha phase of product development with so many amateur issues cropping up. So far I'm seeing a lot of er9/erx issues that should be weeded out very much prior to any sort of release is even contemplated. Don't they have any pride?
That would increase their cost thus price to consumers. China factories aren't magic where they can build the same quality and reliability at half the cost. They are consciously making this decision to fill in a gap in the market for value buyers.
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That would increase their cost thus price to consumers. China factories aren't magic where they can build the same quality and reliability at half the cost. They are consciously making this decision to fill in a gap in the market for value buyers.
no, that's just plain idiocy
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I was amazed to see a picture from Baidu Tieba on a forum located across the ocean, and it was even a picture I personally uploaded. The feeling is truly extraordinary.
Are you perhaps a member of Tieba as well?
我竟然能在一个远在大洋彼岸的论坛里看到来自百度贴吧的图片，甚至还是我自己亲自上传的，这样的感觉真的很奇妙
你不会还是贴吧吧友吧？
Small world ;)
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question for the well connected guys: when can we expect to see the new L-TWOO T5 series groupset? any info on spec? will it be available in 11s, 12s? weight? I hope they keep the graphic as per what is being shown on some youtube video, nice and discreet, says quality much more than red or gold decal to me!
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Well they seem to be available, just ordered a TX, despite the gold lettering:
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqFzHzY
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Well they seem to be available, just ordered a TX, despite the gold lettering:
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqFzHzY
Looks like the new T-series goes from 9s up to to 12s. Nice that they're innovating...but Deore and SLX 12sp is same price or even cheaper.
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with a little weight penalties. I also just paid $48 for TX 12S delivered, I dont think you can get SLX at that price.
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Does anyone know what the max cassette is on the Sensah Empire HRD 11 speed? I can't seem to find it on the product page on aliexpress.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006027398876.html?pdp_npi=3%40dis%21USD%21US%20%24454.54%21US%20%24227.27%21%21%21%21%21%402141112416959588885015561ed540%2112000035384881842%21im%21%21#nav-specification
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Does anyone know what the max cassette is on the Sensah Empire HRD 11 speed? I can't seem to find it on the product page on aliexpress.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006027398876.html?pdp_npi=3%40dis%21USD%21US%20%24454.54%21US%20%24227.27%21%21%21%21%21%402141112416959588885015561ed540%2112000035384881842%21im%21%21#nav-specification
The design doesn't seem to have changed compared to the rim brake version and it looks like medium cage length is the only option, so 11-34t is the max capacity.
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Does anybody know how much bigger are the Sensah HRD levers comparing to the mechanical Sensah lever? Does anybody have a picture both mechanical and hydraulic lever side by side?
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Does anybody know how much bigger are the Sensah HRD levers comparing to the mechanical Sensah lever? Does anybody have a picture both mechanical and hydraulic lever side by side?
I have some comparison photos here.
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Damn those are huge.
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Damn those are huge.
Yeah, I actually liked the mechanical Sensah grips for their small size compared to Shimano hydraulic. But these things are absurdly big... They should come with a disclaimer that you should be 190cm or over to use them...
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Damn those are huge.
I have the mechanical Sensah and would like to change only the shifters and calipers to upgrade to hydraulic.
But it seems the L-TWOO will be better option regarding to the size of shifters.
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I have some comparison photos here.
Wow. Supposedly the shifter throw was already kind of long with the mechanical shifters. Can't imagine with those hydro monstrosities.
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Wow. Supposedly the shifter throw was already kind of long with the mechanical shifters. Can't imagine with those hydro monstrosities.
This is a photo I took at the Shanghai Bicycle Expo in May this year. You can refer to the shift lever throw in the picture.
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You all know that Shimano hydraulic shifters are also bigger than Shimano mechanical? My Shimano GRX and Ultegra hydraulic shifters look to be the same size compared to the mechanical shifters.
I wonder if Sensah will make hydraulic shifters for their Shimano compatible line-up? Also I wonder if they will make a carbon version?
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This is a photo I took at the Shanghai Bicycle Expo in May this year. You can refer to the shift lever throw in the picture.
It's nice to see all those metal mechanical components in the shift housing. From an engineering perspective, I definitely prefer Sensah's design approach compared to LTwoo.
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It’s all very subjective. I’ve never been a fan of Shimano’s mechanical shifter designs and I find the mechanical hydros particularly hideous. Since Sensah practically copies the Shimano design, I’m not a fan of those either. I’m only talking about aesthetics, though. Also I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with LTWOO’s shifter ergonomics. Unsurprisingly - as I’ve been riding all kinds of Campagnolo groupsets for years. Whether or not it’s easy to operate the thumb paddle also largely depends on hand size and bar shape. I do agree however, that Shimano’s and Sram’s shifting mechanism is probably easier to deal with for a bigger range of people than Campag/LTWOO.
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Here is some news about eGR:
Currently, eGR has started small-scale tests in the pre-production and final stages, and it is expected to be available for sale in early next year (after the 2024 Chinese New Year).
I have some pictures of eGR from friends who have received the kit.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Cc4wmfB5XBxMcgTw7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Cc4wmfB5XBxMcgTw7)
The main focus is on comparing the weight with the GRT Mechanical Carbon Fiber Hydraulic Kit:
The eGR rear derailleur is 65g heavier than the GRT rear derailleur. The new version of the clamp has a more refined appearance and is 45g lighter per pair. The eGR shifter no longer has a gear mechanism, making it 52g lighter per pair. However, due to the additional weight of batteries and cables compared to the mechanical kit, it adds approximately 78g. Therefore, the eGR weighs about 50g more than the GRT carbon fiber overall, excluding the battery mount plug.
The eGR brake lever and rear derailleur housing are made of carbon fiber, while the rear derailleur guide plate is made of aluminum alloy.
Compared to eR9/eRX, the shape of the eGR brake lever is less outwardly extended, the button shape is larger, and the button travel has increased, resulting in a better feel. Apart from these changes, there are no significant differences.
Although the eGR left-hand side has buttons, it has been confirmed that it cannot control the same rear derailleur with two hands like SRAM. The buttons on the left side may be designed for electronic seat post adjustment (I'm not sure if this is accurate).
The eGR features a newly designed integrated clamp that is lighter in weight. However, due to Shimano's patents, there have been no improvements in the bleeding method.
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Hopefully this time the electronics are more reliable than what you'd expect to find in a clapped out 1990s alfa romeo. Not holding my breath, though.
I'm staying away from that steaming pile of
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What for me is very disappointing is the maximum cog it supports !!! I expected 50 or 52, but it is more like 45. Big mistake in my opinion, I literally jumped out of the boat
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From their youtube. With only 46t, it is not very interesting for me to be honest. I was hoping to be able to use a standard 10-50 or 10-51 mtb casette.
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From their youtube. With only 46t, it is not very interesting for me to be honest. I was hoping to be able to use a standard 10-50 or 10-51 mtb casette.
I'd be scared to run Ltwoo's electronic setup for gravel. You'd be screwed if you were riding in a remote area and your RD decides to stop shifting.
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Good’ol mechanical to the rescue, new L-Twoo TX. Honestly very nice finish, shifter click are crisp pour no load so it doesn’t mean much. Up 3 cogs on a push.
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I'd be scared to run Ltwoo's electronic setup for gravel. You'd be screwed if you were riding in a remote area and your RD decides to stop shifting.
The way things are going for ltwoo, that seems likely, also. Shame.
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... I’ve been riding all kinds of Campagnolo groupsets for years...
I programmed my Campy EPS to work the SRAM way. Unfortunately, it doesn't support double-tap, so I still need the thumb paddles for the chainring. Even after 2-3 years, I sometimes hesitate between left or right ::)
The SRAM approach, just one paddle per shifter, is the most intuitive to me.
Left for easier, right for harder.
Press both to toggle the chainring, which goes always the right direction since you want to change it.
It's the same for my MTB, where I use blips buttons for an AXS Eagle and the seatpost.
I really hope Sensah/LTWOO will allow for this kind of programming... and why not include blips!
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Sensah Team Pro 11 speed Shimano-compatible hydraulic shifters now available:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006148990399.html
Sensah also now selling all of their hydraulic shifters separately:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006137602599.html
Looks like there's been a small update to the Empire Pro shifters as well, they're now all black (rather than heaving the cheap-looking plastic silver piece).
I asked the Sensah rep on Twitter what the difference with the new gravel rear derailleur is, and he said (https://twitter.com/AlanXia32692058/status/1712752388061466646):
"The new rear chain lifter is stronger, and the chain stability and speed change are enhanced"
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Sensah Team Pro 11 speed Shimano-compatible hydraulic shifters now available:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006148990399.html
Sensah also now selling all of their hydraulic shifters separately:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006137602599.html
Looks like there's been a small update to the Empire Pro shifters as well, they're now all black (rather than heaving the cheap-looking plastic silver piece).
I asked the Sensah rep on Twitter what the difference with the new gravel rear derailleur is, and he said (https://twitter.com/AlanXia32692058/status/1712752388061466646):
"The new rear chain lifter is stronger, and the chain stability and speed change are enhanced"
I might pick up the new Sensah Team Pro HRD. I've gotten use to Sensah shifting and somewhat prefer it over Shimano.
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And some more interesting Sensah news that I missed - they're currently testing (looks close to release) a 12 speed version of the Team Pro shifters that work on the same pull ratio as the existing 11 speed gear.
https://twitter.com/thundervolt2/status/1712774126149251371
These are rim-brake shifters, and in the comments on this post, the rep says that they may make a small batch for hydraulic levers as well.
Nice to see another 12-speed rim brake option out there - handy for those who want to keep drivetrain spares the same across bikes.
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I have nothing to add except I love your username OP rofl ;D
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Sensah Team Pro 11 speed Shimano-compatible hydraulic shifters now available:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006148990399.html
Sensah also now selling all of their hydraulic shifters separately:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006137602599.html
Looks like there's been a small update to the Empire Pro shifters as well, they're now all black (rather than heaving the cheap-looking plastic silver piece).
I asked the Sensah rep on Twitter what the difference with the new gravel rear derailleur is, and he said (https://twitter.com/AlanXia32692058/status/1712752388061466646):
"The new rear chain lifter is stronger, and the chain stability and speed change are enhanced"
That's nice to see...so in future when Shimano 11s hydraulic levers will be no longer available, there will be an option to fix broken levers.
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That's nice to see...so in future when Shimano 11s hydraulic levers will be no longer available, there will be an option to fix broken levers.
Considering you can still find good condition groupsets from the 90s on the used market, I think the 12s hydraulic sensah shifters will be extinct before shimano 11s shifters lol
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And some more interesting Sensah news that I missed - they're currently testing (looks close to release) a 12 speed version of the Team Pro shifters that work on the same pull ratio as the existing 11 speed gear.
https://twitter.com/thundervolt2/status/1712774126149251371
These are rim-brake shifters, and in the comments on this post, the rep says that they may make a small batch for hydraulic levers as well.
Nice to see another 12-speed rim brake option out there - handy for those who want to keep drivetrain spares the same across bikes.
That is interesting for instance to convert 11s grx groupsets to 12s for instance, for using them with usual MTB casettes. Until now the only good alternative is either these 9-50 casettes (no idea how they work), or the garbaruk 10-50, which is a bit expensive to my taste.
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Considering you can still find good condition groupsets from the 90s on the used market, I think the 12s hydraulic sensah shifters will be extinct before shimano 11s shifters lol
Well.. no. 4 years ago I searched for a ultegra leverset from 3x10 group and they were paid in gold.. and many many of them were heavily used, scratched , damaged.
I don't agree to your experience. "LOL" back...
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Ltwoo eGR on sale on the 80 Designer store.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006142886401.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.3e2152e9fYnD3b&algo_pvid=e5eb70d9-1ce7-448c-b660-7608c38db316&algo_exp_id=e5eb70d9-1ce7-448c-b660-7608c38db316-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21NOK%218685.95%216514.46%21%21%21785.00%21%21%402101fb0c16980766533454359ee9bb%2112000035955092068%21sea%21NO%213734539674%21&curPageLogUid=11V7pd63xbY8 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006142886401.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.3e2152e9fYnD3b&algo_pvid=e5eb70d9-1ce7-448c-b660-7608c38db316&algo_exp_id=e5eb70d9-1ce7-448c-b660-7608c38db316-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21NOK%218685.95%216514.46%21%21%21785.00%21%21%402101fb0c16980766533454359ee9bb%2112000035955092068%21sea%21NO%213734539674%21&curPageLogUid=11V7pd63xbY8)
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Looks like the eGR brake calipers have a new design, they differ from the GRT design.
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I wonder if it's possible to put a Goatlink the EGR RD to fit an 11-50t cassette?
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I wonder why its only up to 46t when the GRT does 50T
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I think going up only to 46T is an epic mistake. I was looking forward to see the product announced and maybe buy it, but I am really disappointed. It makes zero sense they limited themselves in that way.
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I think going up only to 46T is an epic mistake. I was looking forward to see the product announced and maybe buy it, but I am really disappointed. It makes zero sense they limited themselves in that way.
Initially I thought the same - but at least you can still use a 10-45 Shimano Microspline or 10-44 SRAM XPLR cassette and still get quite a good range for gravel. It's less than I'd personally like, but for riders in less hilly areas I think it will be suitable.
I think the first issue will be waiting for the price to settle and for some stability testing to be done. As others have said, given the more remote territory I'm likely to be on on a gravel bike, it's a pass from me until others have tested for a significant amount of time.
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And some more interesting Sensah news that I missed - they're currently testing (looks close to release) a 12 speed version of the Team Pro shifters that work on the same pull ratio as the existing 11 speed gear.
https://twitter.com/thundervolt2/status/1712774126149251371
These are rim-brake shifters, and in the comments on this post, the rep says that they may make a small batch for hydraulic levers as well.
Nice to see another 12-speed rim brake option out there - handy for those who want to keep drivetrain spares the same across bikes.
So I asked the Sensah store on Ali when they might be selling these shifters. Something was lost in translation but their message suggests that they are also developing a derailleur with shimano 11 speed pull ratio.
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ask again clearer.
Sensah 12speed shifters compatible with Shimano 11 speed derrailleur. Same pull ratio.